Nice info, mate About peruvian side at CA '59, i guess "una superioridad de segundo núcleo" could be translated as "superiority over the 2nd tier SA nations"
@JGGott and @tpmazembe I'd like to read your opinions about the best brazilians players (3 or 5), which deserved to be named among the South Americans top-10 players in their era and respective role. Cheers
I'll be posting the South American list v.2 for the 1957-59 era. Most positions will have a top-10 list, based mainly in BRA/ARG/URU/PER/PAR/CHI players (some BOL/COL) in a WM formation (commonly used by most SA teams by then). In the case of brazilians i had a list of 3-5 contenders for each position: GK: Gilmar, Castilho RB: D.Santos, De Sordi, Paulinho Almeida CB: Bellini, Mauro Ramos, Olavo LB: N.Santos, Oreco, Altair RH: Zito, Roberto Belangero, Dino Sani LH: Orlando, Zozimo, Chico Formiga RW: Garrincha, Julinho, Joel Martins, Canario, Dorval IR: Didi, Luizinho Trocchilo, Moacir CF: Vavá, Altafini, Evaristo, Paulo Valentim, Gino Orlando IL: Pelé, Dida, Almir, Indio, Del Vecchio LW: Canhoteiro, Pepe, Zagalo, Chinesinho, Quarentinha Note: I consider Quarentinha and also Chinesinho 50-50% (IL or LW) in this period. What's your thoughts @JGGott, @Lucas Gomes, @tpmazembe, @celito .
The most prominent SA clubs in the late 1950s ------------- champion ------- 2nd ----------- 3rd---------- 4th Arg 1957 ----- River -----San Lorenzo --- Racing -------- Boca Arg 1958 ---- Racing ------ Boca Jrs ----San Lorenzo -- Atlanta Arg 1959 - San Lorenzo----- Racing -- Independiente -- Ferro Uru 1957 --- Nacional------ Peñarol ----- Defensor Uru 1958 --- Peñarol------- Nacional ----- Rampla Uru 1959 --- Peñarol------- Nacional ----- Racing Car 1957 --- Botafogo --- Fluminense --- Flamengo Car 1958 ----- Vasco ------ Flamengo ----- Botafogo Car 1959 --Fluminense --- Botafogo ------- Bangú Paul 1957 -- Sao Paulo ------Santos ----- Corinthians Paul 1958 -----Santos ----- Sao Paulo --- Corinthians Paul 1959 --- Palmeiras -----Santos ------ Sao Paulo Per 1957 ------C.Iqueño ---At.Chalaco Per 1958 ---- Sport Boys ---At.Chalaco Per 1959 -- Universitario -- Sport Boys Chi 1957 ----- Audax It. -----U de Chile Chi 1958 -Stgo.Wanderers - Colo Colo Chi 1959 ---- U de Chile ---- Colo Colo Par 1957 ----- Olimpia ----- Cerro Porteño Par 1958 ----- Olimpia -----Cerro Porteño Par 1959 ----- Olimpia ----- Cerro Porteño
Interstate & National brazilian championship: --------------- champion ----- 2nd -------- 3rd Taca BRA 59 -- Bahia------ Santos ----- Vasco Rio-SP 57 -- Fluminense--- Vasco ---- Flamengo Rio-SP 58 ----- Vasco---- Flamengo - Corinthians Rio-SP 59 ----- Santos------ Vasco ---- Flamengo Other club competition: Little World Cup (1957) http://www.rsssf.com/tablesp/peq-copamundo57.html Taca Morumbi 1957 http://www.rsssf.com/tablest/taca-morumbi57.html Hexagonal de Lima 1959 http://www.rsssf.com/tablesl/limahex59.html Real Madrid american tours 1957-58 http://www.rsssf.com/tablesm/madrid-trips5859.html Teresa Herrera Trophy (1957-59) http://www.rsssf.com/tablest/teresa-herrera.html#57 Tournoi Internacional de Paris (1957-59) http://www.rsssf.com/tablest/teresa-herrera.html#57 Orange Trophy (1959) http://www.rsssf.com/tablesn/naranja.html Copa Phillips-San José (1958) http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/sjose58.html Intl. Tournaments-México (1957-59) http://www.rsssf.com/tablesm/mex-clubtourn.html
I'll be considering among argentinians a list of 2 or 4 contenders for each position in the period 1957-59: GK: Domínguez, Carrizo, Negri RB: Lombardo, Giménez, Acevedo CB: Dellacha, Ramos Delgado, A.Pérez, Griffa LB: Vairo, Murúa, Iñigo RH: Mouriño, P.Rossi, Guidi, Sabino Bártoli, Cap LH: Varacka, Nazionale, Schandlein, Sacchi, Benegas, Solá RW: Corbatta, Pentrelli, De Bourgoing, Facundo IR: Maschio, Grillo, Pizzuti, Prado, O.Rossi CF: Angelillo, Menéndez, Manfredini, "Marqués" Sosa IL: Sívori, Sanfilippo, Callá, Labruna LW: Cucchiarioni, Belén, Boggio, Cruz, Zárate What's your thoughts, @Once , @Vegan10 . @argentine soccer fan .
Correct link http://www.rsssf.com/tablest/tiparis.html#57 Oriundis will not be considered in the period 1957-59: Di Stefano, Pesaola, Lojacono, Montuori, Rial, Ricagni, Santamaría, Schiaffino, Ghiggia, Eulogio Martínez, Heriberto Herrera
Top players - match ratings - Copa America 1957 PLAYER --- NT --- 1R --- 2R --- 3R --- 4R --- 5R --- 6R --- Avg Angelillo --- Arg --- 8 ---- 8 ----- 7 ----- 8 ----- x ----- x ---- 7,75 Maschio ---- Arg --- 8 ---- 7 ----- 7 ----- 8 ----- x ----- x ---- 7,50 Ambrois --- Uru ---- 8* --- 6 ----- 7 ---- 8 ----- 8 ----- x ---- 7,40 Sivori ------- Arg --- np ---- 7 ----- 9 ---- 6 ----- x ----- x ---- 7,33 Didi -------- Bra ---- 8 ----- 6 ----- 8 ----- 7 ---- x ----- x ---- 7,25 Corbatta --- Arg ---- 6 ----- 5 ----- 7 ---- 10 ---- x ----- x ----- 7,00 Roberto B - Bra ---- 6 ---- 8 ------ 7 ----- 7 ----- x ----- x ---- 7,00 Terry ------- Per ---- 6 ----- 8 ----- 7 ----- 6 ----- x ----- x ---- 6,75 Rossi ------- Arg ---- 5 ----- 6 ----- 9 ----- 7 ----- x ----- x ---- 6,75 Zizinho ---- Bra ---- 8 ----- 8 ----- 6 ----- 5 ----- x ----- x ---- 6,75 Asca -------- Per ---- 6 ---- np ---- np ---- 7 ----- x ----- x ---- 6,50 8* = No rating, but very good praised in the report. np = not played Note: Some sources rated Carlos Correa as best centreback and Bonnard as best keeper of the whole tournament. In the match PER vs ARG, Terry and Asca had notable performances according the reports. Missing Ratings 31.3.57. BRA 1 - PER 0 01.4.57. COL 4 - ECU 1 01.4.57. URU 2 - CHI 0 03.4.57. ARG 3 - BRA 0 06.4.57. PER 2 - ARG 1
Is there any type of information anecdotal or otherwise on who were Argentinas top player against Brazil?
Top players - match ratings - Copa America Buenos Aires 1959 PLAYER ---- NT --- 1R --- 2R ---- 3R --- 4R --- 5R --- 6R --- Avg Pelé --------- Bra ---- 8 ----- 8 ----- x ----- 9 ----- 8 ----- x ---- 8,25 Asca --------- Per ---- 7 ---- 7 ----- 9 ----- 7 ----- 9 ----- x ---- 7,80 Mouriño ---- Arg --- np --- np ---- 8 ---- 8 ----- 6 ----- x ----- 7,33 Didi --------- Bra ---- 9 ----- 5 ----- x ----- 6 ---- 9 ----- x ----- 7,25Castilho ----- Bra ---- 7 ---- 6 ----- x ---- 8 ----- np --- np ---- 7,00 P.Valentim -- Bra --- np ---- 6 ----- x ----- 9 ----- 6 ---- x ---- 7,00 Silveira ----- Uru --- np --- np ---- 7 ----- 7 ----- 6 ----- x ---- 6,67 ... Callá --------- Arg ---- 6 ----- 6 ---- 9 ----- 5 ----- 6 ----- x ---- 6,40 Lombardo --- Arg --- np ----- 7 ---- 6 ---- 6 ----- 6 ----- x ---- 6,25 D.Santos ---- Bra --- np ---- np --- x ---- 7 ----- 8 ----- x ---- 7,50 Garrincha --- Bra --- np --- np ---- x ---- 7 ----- 8 ----- x ---- 7,50 Fleming ----- Per ---- 7 ---- 8 ----- 6 ---- np ---- np --- np --- 7,00 Formiga ----- Bra --- np ---- np ---- x ---- 6 ----- 8 ---- np --- 7,00 np = not played Missing ratings were: 21.3.59 BRA 4 - BOL 2 2.4.59. PAR 2 - PER 1 2.4.59. CHI 1 - URU 0 4.4.59 ARG 1 - BRA 1 Note: Against Bolivia, Brazil played badly, saved only by Didi and Pelé. Argentina played poorly in its first two matches, being changed some players for the third game vs Perú, in which match they scored the third when peruvians were closer to the equalise. They had the luck to scored in crucial moments and they performing were from less to more, reaching its peak in the final game. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...ot-the-world-cup.2003999/page-2#post-30062327 In the final played notably Griffa, Lombardo, Belen, Pizzuti, Mouriño and Murúa. For Brazil, Garrincha was poor also D.Santos, good Gilmar. Pele and Didi were controlled but the latter gave the assist to Pelé and created other chances missed. http://www.santafe.gov.ar/hemerotecadigital/diario/25655/?page=5 At the end, Didi "may have reduce" in two points Pele's advantadge in the total points (33 vs 29 in the above table). "Most surely" end result for La Prensa: 1) Pele, 2) Didi, 3) Mouriño, 4) Asca.
I see this in another forum, I guess @Perú FC has more details A poll made by el Grafico at 1969 for the whole 1960s. Keeper 1. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (URU) 2. Amadeo Carrizo (ARG) 3. Gilmar (BRA) Right Back 1. Carlos Alberto (BRA) 2. Luis Eyzaguirre (CHI) 3. Djalma Santos (BRA) Right Centreback 1. Roberto Perfumo (ARG) 2. Mauro Ramos (BRA) 3. Elías Figueroa (CHI) Left Centreback 1. Federico Sacchi (ARG) 2. Héctor Chumpitaz (PER) 3. Orlando (BRA) Left Back 1. Nílton Santos (BRA) 2. Silvio Marzolini (ARG) 3. Ricardo Pavoni (URU) Defensive Mid 1. Antonio Rattín (ARG) 2. Clodoaldo (BRA) 3. Víctor Benítez (PER) Offensive Mid 1. Gérson (BRA) 2. Ademir (da Guia) (BRA) 3. Dino Sani (BRA) Right Winger 1. Garrincha (BRA) 2. Jairzinho (BRA) 3. Luis Cubilla (URU) Striker 1. Alberto Spencer (ECU) 2. Luis Artime (ARG) 3. Pedro Pablo León (PER) Second Striker 1. Pelé (BRA) 2. Omar Sívori (ARG) 3. José Sanfilippo (ARG) Left Winger 1. Juan Joya (PER) 2. Pepe (BRA) 3. Leonel Sánchez (CHI)
That's some great work by @Perú FC ! I know Tostao is young during that decade but I still would place him for #3 offensive mid instead of Dino Sani. Also, Melendez in place of Orlando, a rather average center back.
Maybe I'm biased here, but from the reports that I read, the love by fans, impact, etc. I would give to Melendez the benefit of the doubt here. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/primera-división-rankings-of-argentinean-football.1862688/page-2#post-25359202 I mean, Melendez with 6,42 vs Pavoni/Onega with 6,48, there is a difference of 0,06 points. Clearly into the statistical error. So, I guess Melendez made the top-3 in the argentine league 1969 behind Cejas and Perfumo.
Seems to have some similarities with Argentinian newspaper, La Prensa, and their reviews but evidently different. Some differences, Pelé was viewed as the standout player for Brazil in the first match while both Didi and Pelé share the honors in the second game. The third game has little information but in the 4th match against Uruguay both Pelé and Didi don't make an impact. Indeed Valentim is the best performer. The 5th round against Paraguay coincides with Garrincha's finest display and Didi performing well.
La Prensa CA 1959 ratings/goals --------------------------- Pelé --- Didi------EG vs Perú (2-2) -------- 8/1 ---- 9/1----- P>D vs Chile (3-0)-------- 8/2 ---- 5/1----- P=D vs Bolivia (4-2) ----- x/1 ---- x/1------- x vs Uruguay (3-1) --- 9/- ---- 6/------- P=D vs Paraguay (4-1) - 8/3 ---- 9/------- P<D vs Argentina (1-1) - x/1 ----- x/------ P<D Now crossing info. For the Peru's game Didi get -2, but against Chile get +2 meanwhile Pelé stands in his 8 thanks to his double. Against Bolivia, they had a clear win, both scoring, so I gave them a 7. Against Uruguay, Didi get the same rating, but Pele penalized -2. Against Paraguay, Pelé stands in his 8 due to his hat-trick, also Didi in his 9 (he could get -1). And for the final game, Didi is rated as Brazil MVP and Pelé only a decent game. ------- 1R-- 2R-- 3R-- 4R-- 5R-- 6R Pelé - 8 --- 8 ---- 7 --- 7 --- 8 ---- 6 - = 7,33 Didi -- 7 --- 7 ---- 7 --- 6 --- 9 ---- 8 -- = 7,33 This exercise get as a result a draw between Pelé and Didi with an excelent rating, even I think Didi could get at least 1 point less in some match. So, meanwhile La Prensa get Pelé as a clear winner. El Grafico have Didi at first with a small margin. And for El Pais (RSSSF source) Pelé was the winner. I could give Pelé the edge for a small margin.
In this list, I think Roberto "Muñeco" Coll merits inclusion at the mid section among Inside Right. The main star in Palestino's title at 1955 and considered by then the best player in the Chilean league. http://elhinchadecarton.blogspot.com/2014/03/roberto-coll-es-grande.html
@msioux75, I see Pedro Dellacha was not even rated in top 3 players in his position in Copa America 1956 and 1957 (Probably he made it in only 1955 tournament as you mentioned). He did not participate in 1953 Copa America and 1954 World Cup. Moreover, I think there is no Argentine defender shined in 1958 World Cup. Why did you rate him as second best player in his position in all three designated periods of 1950s ? Is he described in article as a superb defender in Argentine league or anything ?
Hi Dearman, In the last revision I made, for the early 1950s, as RFB, I rate Pini, M.Gonzalez and Colman ahead of him. Concerning, Copa America, I think his better performances were 1955 and
Thanks for the link. I see you rate Tarasconi as the second best right-winger in South America in the mid-1920s (1923 - 1925), That means he was a top scorer in 1923 and 1924 Argentine league from winger position ?
Tarasconi, played both CF and RW roles. In 1923, he was mainly a CF, since P.Calomino was the RW. In 1924, he played 11 games as RW and 6 as CF. In 1925 and 1926, he played RW.
msioux75 are there any data or info of Pele assists in copa 59?i remember seeing an assist by him in one of his assists video.