This is an excellent re-assembled match report of the '59 FA Cup Final: http://therollingball.wordpress.com/match-reports-2/forest-v-luton-1959/ Quigley is specifically referred to as a "creative inside-right"; which could mean both "deep-lying" and "orthodox"-types grouped together. But, it usually meant the same thing as an "orthodox" I-F...
Thanks again Roy for both posts. Yeah, Wilson seems to have been the traditional number 9 centre-forward without a g-s-i-f playing right up along with him. That tallies with the comment from a Forest fan that it was like a 3-4-3 of sorts - the winger Dwight scored quite a few that season and it seems like the other winger Imlach also played high up on the left side mostly. Gray being a 'schemer' makes sense from the video posted and his general description (used to be a winger as you said). By modern terms I think Gray and Quigley were both AM's then not so much FW's and not CM's, but with Quigley playing the orthodox role and Gray the roving role. 2 interesting points about that before (nothing to do with making claims for any of that Forest team to be in the top 30 or so of the 50's worldwide - very good team though I believe by the Club's standards to that point!): The referee was called Clough! Must be a lucky name for Forest. The line-ups on that 2nd link still show the centre-half level with the two wing-halves even though they played more as sole centre-backs (eg McKinlay for Forest) I believe and that's why centre-half and centre-back get used to describe the same position in modern times (or at least moreso in the 80s' I remember). When Ernst Ocwirk played centre-half for Austria he wasn't in the middle of defence of course and the pyramid formation centre-halves weren't outright defenders/(full-backs) either.
Hard to say which decade (60's or 70's) is more appropriate but think I'd possibly find a place for Josip Skoblar in my lists now I think about it (from page 1). Prolific striker in French football though he didn't carry on playing for Yugoslavia while in France; I think he'd played as a winger often for Yugoslavia earlier in the 60's.
[This was due to the out-dated practise of still showing team XIs in the "on paper" version of the "classic" formation in match programmes and on the telly: Forest were almost certainly utilising a "W-M" variant formation in that match IMO. I'm still trying to post some info about Forest's W-Hs in that system and some info about Luton Town captain Syd Owen as well...]
The '59 (English) PotY that was an unfortunate victim of the then-current depth that England had at "CD" and the ISC's idiotic quest to find a like-for-like replacement for Stoke's Neil Franklin at centre-half; Luton Town and England cult hero Syd Owen: http://www.doingthe92.com/stats/display_player.asp?step=61&ID=131&pid=37777&ptag=Syd_Owen http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A21326014 http://shop.sportsworldcards.com/lu...rs-series-2-football-trading-card-23457-p.asp Once again, I hope that you will find this information helpful...
An excellent profile of Laurie Hughes fr. BobPaisley.com/LFCHistory.net that lists several candidates that the ISC was "card-dealing" out caps to in the bid for a like-for-like replacement for Neil Franklin in the England No.5 shirt: http://www.bobpaisley.com/article/1947 Have I mentioned before that I wasn't a big fan of the ISC?
Here a few more obits and profiles on Hughes (who passed away in Sept. of '11): http://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/past-players/laurie-hughes http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...as-a-true-liverpool-fc-great-100252-29395372/ http://www.lfchistory.net/Players/Player/Profile/678 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/o...is-role-in-englands-worst-defeat-2353607.html
2000's squad Goalkeeper: Oliver Kahn Right Back: Cafu Centre Back: Cannavaro Centre Back: Maldini Left Back: Roberto Carlos Right Wing: Luis Figo Defensive midfielder: Rivaldo Attacking midfielder: Zidane Left Wing: Ronaldinho Striker: Ronaldo Striker: Thierry Henry
In fact Rivaldo was a BETTER attacking midfielder than both Figo and Zidane ... since he scored more and assists at least the same ... Nesta was better than Canavaro at CB
no Rivaldo was better and higher than Figo surely .. Go back and watch Barca from 96-2000: 97 he was overshadowed by Ronaldo, and then next 3 years he was overshadowed by Rivaldo ... and sadly in 2002 at Real he was overshadowed by Zidane ... What I meant was that Navajo put Rivaldo as DM and Zidane and Figo as AM ... that's SILLY Zidane should play behind or BETWEEN Figo and Rivaldo ... I fact would change his "fixed selection" _---------- Henry ----- Ronaldo ---------- ---Ronaldinho ---- ------- Rivaldo -------- ------ Zidane ------------ Figo ------------
Squad 2: Keeper: Buffon Right Back: Thuram Left back: puyol centre back: nesta centre back: john terry defensive mid: beckham attacking mid: pavel nedved left wing: raul right wing: eto'o striker: michael owen striker: shevchenko
'30s (WM) Planicka - Nasazzi, Hapgood - Andrade, Monti, Baloncieri - Sindelar, Meazza, Stabile, Sarosi, Orsi. Reserves: Zamora - Janes, Quincoces - Sesta, James, Burgr - Friedenreich, Scarone, Dean, Castro, Piola. '40s (WM) Maspoli - Gambetta, Rava - Varela, Walter, Domingos da Guia - Matthews, Moreno, Leonidas, Zizinho, Pedernera. Reserves: Swift - Foni, Maroso - Franklin, Parola, Happel - Ademir, Hidegkuti, Bican, Mazzola, Labruna. '50s (1-3-1-2-3) Yashin - Wright - Djalma Santos, Mauro Ramos, Nilton Santos - Liedholm - Didi, Puskas - Garrincha, Di Stefano, Kopa. Reserves: Gilmar - Hanappi - Martinez, Bellini, Lantos - Edwards - Masopust, Schiaffino - Kubala, Fontaine, Kocsis. '60s (1-3-1-2-3) Banks - Moore - Santamaria, Schnellinger, Facchetti - Gerson - Charlton, Pelè - Best, Eusebio, Jairzinho. Reserves: Mazurkiewicz - Maldini - Burgnich, Netto, Marzolini - Suarez - Rivera, Sivori - Law, Altafini, Gento. '70s (1-3-1-2-3) Maier - Beckenbauer - Carlos Alberto, Figueroa, Breitner - Neeskens - Zico, Cruijff - Dalglish, Muller, Rivelino. Reserves: Zoff - Chumpitaz - Vogts, Schwarzenbeck, Krol - Netzer - Mazzola, Cubillas - Keegan, Kempes, Blokhin. '80s (4-1-2-3) Dasaev - Baresi, Matthaus, Passarella, Cabrini - Falcao - Francescoli, Platini - Maradona, Van Basten, Rummenigge. Reserves: Shilton - Scirea, Hansen, Koeman, Brehme - Rijkaard - Socrates, Laudrup - Gullit, Rossi, Butragueno. '90s (4-1-3-2) Kahn - Cafu, Hierro, Desailly, Maldini - Guardiola - Figo, Baggio, Giggs - Romario, Shearer. Reserves: Schmeichel - Neville, Blanc, De Boer, Lizarazu - Redondo - Stoichkov, Hagi, Papin - Klinsmann, Batistuta. '00s (4-2-3-1) Casillas - Thuram, Puyol, Cannavaro, Roberto Carlos - Pirlo, Xavi - Henry, Zidane, Ronaldinho - Ronaldo. Reserves: Barthez - Zanetti, Nesta, Ferdinand, Cole - Scholes, Beckham - Raul, Kakà, Del Piero - Inzaghi. '10s (4-2-3-1) Buffon - Dani Alves, Sergio Ramos, Piquè, Lahm - Modric, Iniesta - Ronaldo, Messi, Ibrahimovic - Lewandowski. Reserves: Neuer - David Luiz, Terry, Thiago Silva, Marcelo - Xabi Alonso, Kroos - Robben, Rooney, Neymar - Aguero.
Nice post mate, and nice to see an old thread again and look back at the posts of RoyoftheRovers and others from a few years ago! I will give it a try using your templates in a minute - but I'll try to go a bit more with the most suitable players for the position even though in the past I'm sure I've shoe-horned some choices in in teams like this (especially AMs...which it might be argued I still will I guess!). If for example I'll think a striker was marginally better than a winger, but would clearly not fit better in a team (even theoretically) I'll not name him though, but pick the winger instead. I think you have shown a pyramid formation for the earlier decades actually, as a WM is more like 3-2-2-3. I'll keep the tiers you wrote (2 defenders, 3 mids or 'half-backs', 5 forwards) but I guess it was a case of differences between teams. I guess as an English person, your 90s formation might also seem suitable for 80s, but then again Italians might even think Zona Mista is the best choice so I'll keep the choice you made there too (as well as in all other decades) as probably a good compromise between all major formations used (rather than as a really typical system overall).
Ok, so hopefully I won't have brain fade and need to return and change lots of things later on! I'm going with mainly the decades peaked in, but in some cases it will vary: Redondo will be in the 90s obviously regardless of a few Champions League performances in the second half of 99/00 (during 2000), it might be argued I feel that peak Xavi can be during 2010 but I'll keep him in 00-09 with an arguable peak and a longer near peak period in general. Players like those would be considered at their best and with their peaks fully considered though, unlike Michael Laudrup (his best attributes of the 80s that may theoretically add something to his 90s version not being considered) or Savicevic if it might be argued he never player better than vs Milan in 88/89...not that those things will affect much anyway in those cases I think but they were ones to come to mind! Already in the 30s team maybe Zamora's inclusion (and Jose Leandro Andrade's for example) would owe to what he did in the 20s too, but it'd hard for the 'old times' anyway for sure and we are going as much as anything on what we read I suppose, plus as we're not going back to the 20s then squeezing some players in seems reasonable I think. I'll not do it with Friedenreich or Scarone though. Only including each player in one decade, like Pollo. I'll do the reserves later some time. Like I say, 30s and 40s are borderline WM teams I guess, but written as 2-3-5 at least. Was a bit torn between putting Domingos Da Guia in Sarosi's 'centre-half' position and Sarosi in James's place in attack(/midfield), and the way I've done it. 30s - Zamora; Nasazzi, Hapgood; V.Andrade, Sarosi, Nausch; Meazza, James, Piola, Sindelar, Orsi 40s (going with WM) - Maspoli; Stankovic, Parola, Nilsson; Varela, Ocwirk; Zizinho, V.Mazzola; Matthews, Bican, Moreno (shoe-horned a bit and maybe more an 'attacker' in 30s than 40s?) 50s (going with adjusted WM which might even cost Didi and Schiaffino for example even in the reserves compared to if going with Pollo's choice or a 4-2-4 or something - there are lots of great and famous players here - anyway it is 3-2-3-2 with deep-lying centre-forward) - Yashin; D.Santos, Santamaria, N.Santos; Bozsik, Edwards; Finney, Di Stefano, Gento; Kocsis, Puskas 60s - Banks; Shesternyov; Carlos Alberto, Moore, Facchetti; Coluna; Charlton, Pele; Garrincha, Eusebio, Best 70s (going with Suurbier/Breitner and keeping back Krol for sweeper in reserves where Vogts will get the right back place but arguably those two can be better choices in the 1st team I think) - Shilton; Beckenbauer; Suurbier, Figueroa, Breitner; Neeskens; Zico, Cruyff; Jairzinho, Muller, Kempes * Cruyff and Kempes could switch around a bit if that was a real-life line-up I guess (neither being a true LW of course ideally) 80s (still going with a libero-CB partnership in effect) - Dasaev; Amoros, K-H Forster, Baresi, Brehme; Rijkaard; Gullit, Platini; Rummenigge, Van Basten, Maradona (false LW, perhaps alternating with Rummenigge too in a real line-up) 90s - Schmeichel; Jorginho, Hierro, Blanc, Maldini; Redondo; Figo, Zidane, Giggs; Ronaldo, M.Laudrup (striker and support striker combination - for team 2 I guess it'll be Weah and Bergkamp with Romario just missing out although considered alongside Ronaldo with Zidane a 00s candidate initially; Savicevic can be on the wing so as not to choose between him and Bergkamp and I might even put Baggio on the left wing having said I'd try to put players in their best roles initially....or maybe he misses out and Rivaldo goes LW which is slightly shoe-horning anyway!; Shevchenko is being put in 00s to allow room for another in 90s and make sure he gets a place in the reserves at least I think anyway as I'm 50/50 on him and some others for the best decade I think) 00s - Buffon; Cafu, Nesta, Cannavaro, R.Carlos; Xavi, Vieira; Beckham, Totti, Ronaldinho; Henry 10s - Neuer; Alves, Pique, Van Dijk, Marcelo; Busquets, Pirlo; Messi, Iniesta (it's a 4-3-3 hybrid I guess, and it's a bit of a mirror of the Xavi situation where I can factor in his 2009 form too I think!), C.Ronaldo; Ibrahimovic (false ish 9, and I am a bit doubtful that I go with him rather than different striker or moving a 'winger' to striker or false 9 when Robben, Neymar and Hazard for example wait in the reserves but could take a place here instead I guess).
Ok, while I'm thinking about it I will complete my selections with the reserves. The 30s and 40s are the hardest obviously, while the 50s has lots of players to consider, and in addition to the ones I mentioned above, Liedholm could be another whose case isn't helped after the switch to 3-2-3-2 (with 'deep-lying centre-forward') and could also be close to getting in as a 'wing-half'/midfielder. Bernard Vukas, mentioned earlier in the thread, and Faas Wilkes too for example, would come more into contention as inside forwards without that change (which allows Di Stefano and now Hidegkuti to be placed in iconic positions for them). I've gone with Vasovic as sweeper in the 60s line-up, but I guess that slot would have a number of possibilities, especially from Italy (Picchi, Cera...), but maybe also Matrai of Hungary can fit well in such a role. In the 90s I suppose Sammer is overlooked in two possible positions, but would have been favoured more in different systems potentially. If you are reading Puck (maybe you are taking a break like I did a bit), it's good if you like me choosing the Dutch players over him though lol (but I'm thinking those selections definitely seem fair calls anyway in this system especially)! 30s - Planicka; Rosetta, Quincoces; Samitier, Domingos Da Guia, Van Heel; Puc, Leonidas, Lawton, Nejedly, Morton (more 20s surely) 40s - Swift; Foni, Franklin, Rava (I'm probably mixing systems there a bit!); Nestor Rossi, Happel (now I'm maybe making it a back 4 lol!); Gren, Walter; Ademir (not best position), Nordahl, Loustau 50s - Grosics; V.Andrade (sorry I meant to type J.Andrade in the main 30s team of course!), Wright, Lantos; Zito, Masopust; Kopa, Hidegkuti, Czibor; Kubala, Fontaine 60s - Maier; Vasovic; Gemmell, McNeill, Marzolini; Voronin; Rivera, Gerson; Johnstone, Law, Dzajic 70s - Zoff; Krol; Vogts, Passarella, Bossis; Ardiles; Deyna, Rivelino; Lato, Rossi, Rensenbrink 80s (hybrid with 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 really) - Southall; Kaltz, Vierchowod, Scirea, Cabrini; Tigana; Matthaus, Dalglish; Littbarski, Lineker, Barnes 90s (deciding in the end to go with more suitable winger choices and ending up somehow leaving out Savicevic as well as Baggio...feeling that Bergkamp and Weah potentially fits well as a partnership in this kind of system!) - Preud'homme; Zanetti, Koeman, Desailly, Lizarazu; Davids; B.Laudrup, Hagi, Ginola; Weah, Bergkamp 00s - Kahn; Thuram, Carvalho, Campbell, Zambrotta; Keane, Alonso; Ljungberg, Kaka, Pires; Shevchenko 10s - De Gea; Lahm, Varane, Godin, Alba; Kante, Modric; Robben, Neymar, Hazard; Lewandowski
I don't think I do have any changes to make, but obviously several names came to mind during and after I did that (that were in Pollo's post anyway, or some that weren't). These could be particularly close calls that come to mind for getting a place at least in a reserve selection though: The Flamengo/Brazil side-back pair of Leandro and Junior in the 80s Already mentioned, but Savicevic and Rivaldo could take wing slot based on their best capabilities and performances (vs Porto 93/94 for Savicevic, or Denmark in World Cup 98 for Rivaldo for example) in similar roles, even contending for a first XI slot if Figo was moved to 00s, or if the formation became 4-2-3-1. Re: Zidane, I'm thinking somehow his 90s version might suit a 4-2-3-1 better and 00s version the 4-1-3-2 actually, so if moving him to 00s which I might feel more closely inclined to do than with Figo, that could open up a space for Boban maybe if the 90s formation did switch to 4-2-3-1, or for Rui Costa perhaps otherwise. Or the aforementioned Roberto Baggio or Romario could come in, also to the first XI even (probably with Michael Laudrup moving to CAM I think even if it was Baggio). For the 50s, it's hard to verify properly but seemingly on capabilities and best performances in the role, John Charles and Branko Zebec might be considered for centre-half (centre-back) or perhaps for 'defensive wing half' i.e like a second centre-back. If the 00s formation did switch to 4-1-3-2, assuming Ronaldinho then becomes more suitable as a supporting attacker, it could be Nedved and Seedorf become options at LM. If I made the 10s reserve team a 4-3-3 (as my first XI pretty much was) Yaya Toure might get a place I thought as the more attacking of 3 midfielders.
That exercise is very interesting, but it can be more frustrating to choose between one player or another because they do not fit properly in a specific decade. I've tried to do something similar taking into account both, the decades and the period between decades (1920's, 1925-1934, 1930's, 1935-1944...), so that each generation is represented with better precision and the opportunity to appear from each one is not interrupted by a chronological issue that create disadvantages. I have not done a compilation. I'll try to publish all my results little by little. It would be interesting to see the opinions and the matches with @PDG1978 and @Pollo. 1920's (1920-1929) Ricardo ZAMORA (SPA) -- José NASAZZI (URU) ---- Renzo DE VECCHI (ITA) - José L. ANDRADE (URU) ----- Karel PESEK (CZE) ------- Josep SAMITIER (SPA) Héctor SCARONE (URU) ------- Manuel SEOANE (ARG) Alex JACKSON (SCO) ----- Hughie GALLACHER (SCO) ----- Alan MORTON (SCO)
Mid 1920's to Mid 1930's (1925-1934) Frantisek PLÁNICKA (CZE) -- José NASAZZI (URU) ----- Josef BLUM (AUT) Davie MEIKLEJOHN (SCO) ---- Luis MONTI (ARG) ------ Álvaro GESTIDO (URU) -- István AVAR (HUN) -------- Toni SCHALL (AUT) Sammy CROOKS (ENG) ----- Dixie DEAN (ENG) ----- Raimundo ORSI (ARG)
1930's (1930-1939) Frantisek PLÁNICKA (CZE) -- Paul JANES (GER) ------ Eddie HAPGOOD (ENG) Josef KOSTÁLEK (CZE) ----- György SÁROSI (HUN) ----- Walter NAUSCH (AUT) Giuseppe MEAZZA (ITA) ------- Alex JAMES (SCO) -- Carlos PEUCELLE (ARG) ----- Matthias SINDELAR (AUT) ------ Cliff BASTIN (ENG) -- [*] Apparently Sárosi played and shone at a high international level as both, centre-half and centre-forward, although he is more famous for the last position. The Uruguayan Italian centre-half Michele Andreolo was my backup option. [*] I introduced Alex James as the left inside-forward because I think he was the best player at overall for that position in a general evaluation, however, I think he seems more suitable for the WM system used in England (3-2-2-3) and the most suitable player for the system shown would be Oldrich Nejedly.
Mid 1930's to Mid 1940's (1935-1944) Fernando BELLO (ARG) DOMINGOS da Guia (BRA) ----- Jorge ALBERTI (ARG) --- Erebo ZUNINO (URU) ----- Ernesto LAZZATTI (ARG) ----- Ugo LOCATELLI (ITA) José M. MORENO (ARG) ------- Antonio SASTRE (ARG) Roberto PORTA (URU) ----- Arsenio ERICO (PAR) ------ Enrique GARCÍA (ARG) [*] I have doubts between Jorge Alberti and Pietro Rava for the left-back position. I think Alberti was more "talented", but Rava solid and more decorated internationally. [*] Leónidas was surely one of the best players in the world in this period, but in this team he would be virtually blocked by Moreno (as RIF) and Erico (as CF). [*] György Sárosi could also have integrated this XI in this period (as CF), but I think Erico is slightly better suited for the period and the system, in addition to having reached a phenomenal peak of performance. [*] Josef Bican is another sensitive absence. I've certain doubts between him and Erico, but it seems to me that the Paraguayan was a better all-round attacker. "Pepi" was a spectacular scoring machine in these years, but I have some reservations about the competitive level he faced in Europe at war. [*] It's also a shame not give Silvio Piola a chance.
I Think Rava > Alberti Zunino is a rare pick, maybe another CH? Bello also a debatable choice, not so far from a peruvian goalie, btw I'll pick Swift, maybe?