Best players of the noughties? ( 2000 - 2010 )

This is also a nice one

 

Another interesting thing that crossed my mind is whether the #10 sort of player (be it a true midfield playmaker, a linkman, or more of a forward, or the primary shot taker) is almost always thought of as the best player in the team. Of course there are in history some notable exceptions but just wondering how often that's the case.

For example, Robert Pires picked this year Zidane ahead of goal and assist machine Henry. And although he became world champion in 1998, Pires had a more integral role for national team and club later in his career.

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...er-robert-pires-reveals-his-toughest-opponent

I take this example because I know the comments he makes here are consistent with what he said previously (for ex. in 2011 against the FIFA website).

In that respect Totti finishing eight times as runner-up is noticeable, and is an achievement in itself given context.

 

An interesting pair to examine is Scholes and Pirlo. Both have been a beneficiary of re-appreciation late in their career. The how and what with Scholes is widely known by now, but certainly also Pirlo regained appreciation when he was past his physical prime.

Another recent (great) player where that is the case is Ibrahimovic (born 1981, but fits better within 2005 - 2015). This happened when he scored 4 goals against England, and moved to PSG in this period. This was also the year that he had finally an universally praised Champions League game against one of the last 16 teams (against Arsenal in 2012) - but his KO goals record remains very underwhelming. Lastly, his form against the other top teams of the leagues where he played in had improved dramatically. In the 2nd half of his career - for Milan, PSG and even Manchester United - he became a machine against the main competitors.

After closer examination I think the direct confrontations between Scholes and Pirlo give an insight into why Scholes is almost placed in the same class these days. I'll use Gazzetta dello Sport for this as well as The Times when there are gaps. A couple of games I've (re-)watched myself.


1999 Manchester United vs Internazionale (1st leg)

The first time they met was when Pirlo was still just 19 years old. Pirlo is a typical late blossomer, it wasn't until 2002-03 that he started over 20 league games (21 games).

Scholes had boring role in this match, the main thing he did was passing the ball to the four wing players. This emphasis on the wings against a narrow Internazionale paid off since Beckham assisted both goals. Scholes was taken off after 68 minutes, for Butt.

Pirlo had a brief cameo in the final 10 minutes when he came on for the poorly playing Roberto Baggio. It is now a trope that Pirlo was seen as a trequartista, but take notice here of the October 1998 game against Juventus. There he clearly started in midfield, though not as deep as his trademark position, on a place where the likes of Baggio and Del Piero never played (Totti is a bit different). Managers were not complete fools; it isn't rocket science to see Pirlo had not the explosiveness and/or strength of a forward, but did have a sound engine.

Scholes had a more prominent and less boring game in the other leg, where he scored a goal. Pirlo didn't feature.


2005 Manchester United vs AC Milan (both legs)

It isn't surprising to see that Pirlo really played better in both games. Of course he had the better team and midfield around him at this stage, but Scholes his own enthusiastic but wasteful presence did not help matters. As such, he's correctly rated behind his team colleagues in my view.

Gazzetta ratings of the first leg (0-1 for Milan):
Carroll 5 Neville 6 Ferdinand 6.5 Brown 6 Heinze 6 Scholes 5.5 Keane 6.5 Fortune 6 Ronaldo 5.5 Van Nistelrooy 6 Giggs 6 Rooney 5 - Trainer: Ferguson 5.5
Dida 6.5 Cafu 6 Nesta 6.5 Maldini 6.5 Kaladze 6.5 Gattuso 7 Pirlo 6.5 Seedorf 6.5 Kaka 6 Rui Costa 6 Crespo 7 - Trainer: Ancelotti 7
http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/...ia_Gattuso_dappertutto_ga_10_0502249069.shtml

Gazzetta ratings of the 2nd leg (1-0 for Milan):
Dida 6 Cafu 6.5 Nesta 7 Stam 7 Maldini 6.5 Gattuso 7.5 Pirlo 6.5 Seedorf 6.5 Kaka 6.5 Rui Costa 6.5 Crespo 7 - Trainer: Ancelotti 7
Howard 6 Brown 6 Ferdinand 6.5 Silvestre 6 Heinze 6.5 Keane 6.5 Scholes 5.5 Ronaldo 6 Rooney 5 Giggs 6.5 Fortune 5.5 Van Nistelrooy 5 - Trainer: Ferguson 5.5
http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/...are_Rooney_dimenticare_ga_10_0503096639.shtml

Those ratings are not 100% perfect, maybe too generous for Gattuso for my taste. Crespo has a good rating and I can see that but he was also fed well by the three #10s behind him. I agree Pirlo simply played at a higher level in this particular year.


The 2007 and 2010 meetings to be followed later. In particular the 2007 edition is of interest.

 

2007 Manchester United vs AC Milan (1st leg, 3-2)

This match deserves an elaborate commentary.

In some ways both men were near the peak of their abilities, but the flipside is that Pirlo's dbscalcio and gazzetta ratings were below his career average in 2006-07 (~5.90 in 2006-07, career average of ~6.20), and that Scholes played especially impressive in the first half of the season rather than the 2nd half. This was noted about Scholes both before and after this game.

Unfortunately the Gazzetta dello Sport archive only shows a part of the ratings for this match, but it is safe to assume they actually rated Scholes higher than Pirlo. Scholes is given a 7.

The commentary is: "He manages to do both the first phase of construction (suffocating Pirlo) and the second phase: sending Rooney to goal. With Gattuso gone [left field 52th minute] he becomes a giant." Elsewhere in the reports: "In this way Fletcher and Carrick make the spoilers in front of the defense, dealing respectively with Ambrosini and Kakà, while Scholes is pressing on Pirlo."

Watching this game by myself, it becomes immediately obvious that neither were the 'metronome' or high volume passers in their team, but they did directly meet each other many times on the field. As such this is an intriguing game to watch.

In the first half both Carrick and Fletcher had at least as many passes and touches as Scholes did; in the 2nd half this changed but there Scholes was actually more like Gerrard than Xavi so to speak. At many occasions, certainly 10 times, he moved through to the opposite penalty box.
His 2nd half is his best phase of the match, and he assisted a goal.

The Milan midfielder and forward with the most passes and touches was clearly (with some distance) Seedorf, who together with Kaka also engaged in the most direct duels. Seedorf provided the through ball for Kaka's first goal (typically, in an act of wishful thinking, The Times wrote it was Pirlo to give the through ball). After the departure of Gattuso he became a defensive player.

The Daily Telegraph was among the more lukewarm of Scholes his game. They wrote he was "hitherto subdued" until his assist for the goal. That might be the case, and compared to 2001-02 Robert Pires it is doubtful whether he reached that elite level, but the first time his direct opponent Pirlo became positively involved in constructing (indirect) danger was no earlier than the 55th minute. The Times gave Scholes an 8, but that doesn't say much since four of his team-mates received the same or higher rating, with Rooney even a 9 (incorrectly, in my view), and it doesn't show the Milan ratings.


Pretty informative and accurate, since they looked separately at the match, is what The Guardian made of it:

Andrea Pirlo 6

Flickered sporadically and always willing to help out in defence but seldom can the playmaker have had so little ball

Paul Scholes 8

His pass for Wayne Rooney's equaliser was exquisite and he improved as the game went on


The other midfielders to receive an 8 were:

Darren Fletcher 8

His first pass went straight out of play for a throw-in but he recovered admirably and held his own in central midfield

Clarence Seedorf 8

The most impressive member of the Milan midfield. The Dutchman provided the killer pass for Kaka's first goal


All in all Scholes almost certainly outdid Pirlo in this match, in a direct midfield confrontation. Yet he wasn't as involved in the passing as is sometimes remembered, and when his influence grew it was his verticality in his game as much as the distribution. Just as in 2005 Pirlo had really a quite subdued semi final game. For this first leg I'd give Pirlo around a 6, Scholes something like a 7.5 (an 8 or 8.5 for the 2nd half of the match).

 

2007 AC Milan vs Manchester United (2nd leg, 3-0)

Manchester United tried to repeat the trick to let Scholes again play on Pirlo. Milan manager Ancelotti decided however to move him away from there. His own comments: "We built the match on pressure [from the start]. The keys were the pressure of the midfielders in the defensive phase, the move of Pirlo to bring away from the Scholes position and the push of the full backs. Everything went in the best way. We have worked well since January, improving the athletic condition and then finding all the owners and the starting XI."

Pirlo played a solid to good game, and Scholes definitely didn't reach the heights of the 2nd half of the previous game. Milan based Gazzetta dello Sport complained however about Pirlo's errors: "For example, after 8 minutes, when Kakà sprints forward in attack, but is foiled by Van der Sar who denies Inzaghi, lying in wait. Any faults [by Milan players]? Andrea Pirlo. He loses possession too often, and the delectable Gattuso cannot stand it. Milan’s play becomes intermittent, and they tend to suffer as Manchester turn on the heat." Also here, unfortunately, the match ratings have fallen away in the archive.

The Daily Telegraph (Jim White, who is Manchester United fan) wrote: "Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs look the ones approaching their sell-by date". Their ability to win the bigger games for Manchester United was placed in doubt. Alex Ferguson himself mentioned the lack of experienced players, which was not believed by The Independent: "Like every United Champions League embarrassment, this one was accompanied by Ferguson’s usual protestations about the impetuousness of youth and the dearth of experience but that is harder to rationalise with Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs in the side. Ferguson picked out Seedorf as an example, but Seedorf is younger than the most senior United players – and he does not necessarily have more experience in the Champions League. He has just won it more often."

As we know by now both Scholes and Giggs remained useful pieces, Ferguson was right, but reality was certainly that they looked old and decreasing game winners against strong opponents.

Although I think Pirlo had not one of his best matches too (he did make many mistakes, as well as without the ball, not accustomed to a pressing midfield either), he did reach a higher level than Scholes.

Manchester United played here more like a 4-5-1 while at Old Trafford it was a 4-3-3, or 4-3-1-2 with Rooney as the one who did most without ball (when his team had possession).


This were the midfielder ratings by The Independent:

GENNARO GATTUSO 9
Outstanding, if cynical, the grit in Carlo Ancelotti’s oyster. Dominated midfield.

ANDREA PIRLO 8
Quietly, classily, pulled the strings as effectively as he did in Italy’s World Cup triumph.

MASSIMO AMBROSINI 7
The quiet man in this stellar midfield, but rarely wasted a ball or missed a tackle. Booked.

CLARENCE SEEDORF 9
Made one, scored one, always involved. Still underrated, but the secret should be out soon.

-----

DARREN FLETCHER 4
Lost Seedorf for opening goal. Missed best chance on hour. Still to convince at this level.

PAUL SCHOLES 7
Worked hard, never shirked a tackle despite being on a card, but unable to find spark.

MICHAEL CARRICK 4
This was the old Carrick. Unfortunately. Failed to dictate play, or move ball at pace.

CRISTIANO RONALDO 5
Disappointing. By fair means or foul, was never allowed to get into stride. Booked.

WAYNE ROONEY 6 [was the striker but included to be sure - PvH]
Barely saw the ball in the first half. Creative in second when he did but lacked support.

RYAN GIGGS 4
Had United’s shot on target in first hour, but it was weak. Quiet by recent standards.


By The Times (per their own website, unfortunately not visible for first leg):

Darren Fletcher
Something of an enigma in that he fluctuates between the sublime and the ridiculed, the young Scot is still developing but he got a lesson from a few San Siro masters in Pirlo, Gattuso and Seedorf. Ferguson may reflect that Milan outnumbered them in midfield before outclassing them 5

Paul Scholes
Still tackles like an inverted Martin Peters – ten years behind his time – and has a tendency to go missing. Struggled to make an impact in the torrid first period but looked better when United switched to a standard four-man midfield 5

Michael Carrick
Was among those troubled by Kak?’s positional play as the Milan forward dropped deep and wide. A dangerous ball in the early throes of the second period hinted at better things, but what this United would have given for a firebrand such as Roy Keane. Peripheral 5

Ryan Giggs
Giggs has been remarkably consistent over the years for a winger, but he struggled to make inroads after starting on the right. One flashing shot brought a comfortable save from Dida and improved after Ferguson switched him to the left after half an hour 6

Cristiano Ronaldo
You might argue that you do not need an education when you have twinklier toes than Darcey Bussell, but the opening-minute backheel showed flipside to his brilliance. Starting on the left, he had Gennaro Gattuso’s fury to deal with. Detention beckons 5

Wayne Rooney
Having picked a nice time to return to his best, the first leg displaying the subtle and sledgehammer sides to his game, he must again have been aghast at things behind him. Isolated and frustrated in equal measure, two miracles in a week was asking too much 6

------------

Gennaro Gattuso
How Milan need their old-school, British-style warhorse 7

Andrea Pirlo
His father owns a steelworks but he deals in silk. Classy 7

Clarence Seedorf
Has won the Champions League with three clubs, Great nous, creativity and finishing 8

Massimo Ambrosini
The stand-in captain showed a coolness and calmness the United defence craved 6


The ratings of The Guardian seems to have been disappeared in the archive. Next post will conclude with the 2010 match-ups.

 

2010 AC Milan vs Manchester United (1st leg, 2-3)



Here we have two games where Scholes has a case to have played better. I will refer here to the Milan based Gazzetta dello Sport, rather than the English papers, since they are less likely to be favorable to Scholes.


Their formatting is a bit messed up but after some puzzling I gathered that they had this for the midfielders:


5.5 Beckham Does not affect the game. He stands on the center-right, takes care to cover his shoulders with Bonera's rare advances and to control Fletcher. It was expected more.

6 Pirlo A mosquito like Park has been tampered with him since the beginning. The Korean does not give it up for a moment and so it becomes difficult to build. Van der Sar saves his expert free-kick.

6 Ambrosini Runs like a damned, it gives us courage and lungs. The duel with Scholes is winning. He yields to the distance, when Leonardo unleashes the midfield unexpectedly.

6 Seedorf With his entry [72th minute], but outside his fault and efforts, the team is unbalanced and splits into two (4-2-1-3). The Red Devils go to the wedding. The professor has the merit of the 3-2 goal. Nicely executed backheel.

-----

5.5 Carrick Much more cumbersome than usual in the construction of the maneuver. It grows at distance, but he was sent off in the final minute for a second yellow card.

6 Scholes In the beginning three wrong passages trigger the counterattack of Milan: things not going well from him. Then he gets back on his feet and, even if thanks to a rebound, he goes to stamp the 1-1.

6.5 Fletcher Suffers, does not play well, risks, but is solid. And wins. A man is taking on Pirlo and Beckham. In the phase of non-possession Park follows Pirlo, while Fletcher takes care of Beckham.

7 Park If it could, Ferguson would clone it. The mission is entrusted to him: go to Pirlo and neutralize him. The soldier performs with discipline. And then he disengages himself in strong support for Rooney.

6.5 Valencia Replaces Nani [65th minute] and it's a pleasure. Accelerates on Favalli and leaves him on the spot for Rooney's 2-1 goal. Always dangerous.

------

I think this is pretty sufficient.


2010 Manchester United vs AC Milan (2nd leg, 4-0)

This was a rout for Manchester United, in a game where Ronaldinho received a 4/10. It is almost inevitable Scholes played better, and he undeniably did.

Gazzetta dello Sport ratings:

7.5 Fletcher Mediano with flakes. He puts the leash to Ambrosini in the first half and forces him on the defensive. In the second half grows further and goes to stamp the 4-0 tag. Precious.

7.5 Scholes It is a delight to see him play: he distributes the balls with the wisdom of a philosopher, he understands when to insert himself and when to wait. Triggered Park, with a touch of plush, for 3-0. (Gibson 6)

7.5 Valencia Devastating in start on the right wing. Jankulovski jumps away with an impressive ease and serves repeating crosses. Also useful in the containment phase, when it pulls down the gate.

7.5 Park As at San Siro, he has to take care of closing his mouth in Pirlo and he does it very well. The Rossoneri director is followed everywhere and then goes on to propose himself for the initiative of attack: nice the diagonal of 3-0.

-------------

5.5 Flamini Scholes gives him space in the first half, and he goes to attack the ball carriers of Manchester. Tries also the solution from outside the area. The courage and determination is not lacking, but fails to close on Rooney launched by Nani on 2-0. He ends up as a full-back.

5.5 Pirlo Searches, in the general darkness, for the light switch. Tamped by Park, struggled to find the space and time for the game, but at least it moves, tries, it slams. Later he unsuccesfully moves further to help the attackers. He does not follow the inclusion of Fletcher on 4-0.

5.5 Ambrosini It starts very badly, mistaking several easy steps. Fletcher immediately takes the measures and does not allow the usual offensive galloping and support of Dinho. He plays the recovery from a central defensive player and gets away with experience: he puts his soul into it.

6 Beckham Is the only Milan player to deserve the sufficiency mark in the darkest night of the last years rossoneri. Part on the bench, goes into the omelette now served, but proves to have character to sell and undertakes as a damned: runs, fight, cross in the remaining minutes. And with those sweet feet, the crosses are precise. Attempts to end the flight down, Van der Sar denies him the goal.

5 Seedorf Enters the start of the second half and Milan immediately collects the second goal. The Dutchman tries to juggle with the attackers, in the usual position of the playmaker and to try one-on-one at the edge of the area, but it is not really a fitting evening. Leonardo advanced Pirlo, putting him behind the three points, to give a little more weight to the attack.
(he's rated as a forward, the best rated Milan forward, but since I had him as 'honorable mention' for this decade for completeness added)
--------------

 

Thus after some research during the past weeks I'd exclude 1999 from contention (if anything that goes to Scholes obviously), both 2005 games go decidedly to Pirlo, the first game of 2007 goes to Scholes, the 2nd game goes to Pirlo, and both 2010 games go quite obviously (in my view) to Scholes again.

The most interesting and relevant confrontation is the 1st leg of the 2007 encounter.

 

It's true that level of development plays a role, this is true for every player, and the players who themselves can influence that development (e.g. Johan Cruijff) are few and far between.

As I said above I think 2007 is the most relevant meeting. Scholes received a 1.5 by kicker in the first game, Pirlo a 3.5. So I agree with you 2010 (and 2005 too) are more unbalanced ones.

Pirlo had at national team level the advantage, compared to Scholes, of playing with a core that he knew. Already at under-21 level he was paired with Gatttuso, who is born in the same year as him. Before his resurgence, and that is not to be belittled, he played his best football with Gattuso next to him. Later at Juventus and euro 2012 he formed a similar but less noticeable pair with Marchisio (at euro 2012 a midfield with Montolivo, De Rossi in his declined stamina version, Marchisio, Pirlo). Meanwhile, Roy Keane wasn't English.

The events after 2007 help to explain why/how Scholes ended his career on a relatively high note.

Pirlo ultimately improved his legacy in this "declined league". At the end of the 2000s he had three ESM team of the year selections, same number as Scholes, and this most probably severely underrated Pirlo. He improved his general standing in later years.

I agree for the national team he was miles better, regardless of team trophies and results.

I'm not entirely sure how many impressive Champions League games Pirlo really played. I think that distance to Scholes isn't as large. This might well be closer than many people think, especially in the knockout stages. I might try to make a list later but as far as semi finals go I'd say he was good in 2003 (played one leg), sub-standard in 2005, solid/sub-standard in 2006, solid/good in 2007, sub-standard in 2015. In the Champions League finals he was poor in one, good in one, and solid in two.

He also played in 2014 in the Europa League semi finals, where he played really well in one game.

I think Pirlo his highs and his ability are (more than) good enough to place him in the top group for this decade.


If we go by dbscalcio then Pirlo had two world class seasons (2003-04 and 2011-12) with also arguments for 2005-06 and 2012-13.

Gazzetta dello Sport rated Pirlo in one season as Milan's best midfielder (in 2003-04), with Kaka counted as a forward. Their grades point at 2003-04 and 2011-12 as world class, especially compared to his career average, but they are less fond of his 2005-06 self with a grade of 5.95.

Zidane easily wins this. Manchester United was one of his most favorite opponents, compared to other big teams. He did have some below par games, like in 1997, but also there he had a fine assist. It's an opponent he liked playing against.
With some research it can be detailed but have zero doubts that Zidane easily wins this comparison in direct confrontations.

 

It did make me wonder about other meetings. I think this were some tougher propositions for Zidane. It's a bit provisional without numbers, but I'll indicate this.


Zidane vs Nedved

Nedved is the rare player who outplayed Zidane at all levels, including the three times they met each other for the national team. Also at league level and the Champions League the balance goes to Nedved's favor.

Zidane vs Rivaldo

Over half of their meetings came when Rivaldo or both were past their prime. I think after 2002 Rivaldo tilted the balance in his favor.

Zidane vs Rui Costa

Rui Costa superior at league level. At continental level about even, for national team Zidane performed superior (also when trying to account for his better team mates).

Zidane vs Roberto Baggio

At league level probably a slight advantage for Zidane (60-40), but vastly superior when they met in Europe (1996) or national team (1998, with Baggio as substitute appaerance). That Baggio did well at league level is also related to timing; Zidane had difficulties to settle in 1996-97 etc. Baggio scored a truckload of penalties in 1997-98, but played well.

Zidane vs Bergkamp

Played two times against each other. Zidane a tad more dominant and involved in play, Bergkamp created more chances, drew more fouls, and had a great solo goal against the famed French backline (which others didn't accomplish). When they met each other on the pitch, Bergkamp won all duels except one. Not a landslide for either of them.


Can be extended further with Veron, Totti andsoforth but this are some notable ones per Ballon d'Or (plus Rui Costa added). Maybe you have suggestions?

 

Yes thanks, I see what you mean. Do you have an idea on how that might apply to this particular game? It is easier to see this logic/dynamic at the 1998 World Cup final.

This was the only meeting between Zidane and Rivaldo before 2001-02 - when Zidane moved to the Spanish league and Rivaldo had his last there (Rivaldo did not play the 1997 tournoi de france etc.). In 2001-02 there were two confrontations where both played in, from 2002-03 onward four more followed (so 4/7 of their games after 2002).

 

Also realized today that Pirlo's lack of scoring in the 'big games' (and in general) did not help him for the 2000s ESM selections, although his record against main rival Juventus (1 non-pk goal in 21 Serie A games) is not a lot worse than what Rui Costa (0 non-pk goals in 19) and Kaka (1 goal in 10) did. Seedorf has 8 in 21 (7 in 14 until Juve's forced relegation) and it's plausible this did fractionally help him for ESM. The hybrid/multi-functional forward Shevchenko has 5 in 12, in relatively low scoring affairs.

Even the older Scholes might have a small advantage here (think of the Milan goal above, but also the 2008 semi final goal against Barcelona).

 

Through transfermarkt and double checked with bdfutbol I saw some other midfielders and 'ticking' forwards with a relatively good record against Juventus in that time. Juventus was with four 1st places, three 2nd places and two 3rd places the most consistent team, in both halves of this period.

Totti: 9 goals (incl. 5 pens) in 34 games. Until 2010 he had 5 goals (2 pens) in 23 games.

Cassano: 8 goals in 24 (0 pens!)

Pandev: 5 goals in 17


Among the high capped Italy players:

De Rossi: 3 goals in 23

Gattuso: 1 goal in 23

Ambrosini: 2 goals in 25

Montolivo: 0 goals in 15

Camoranesi: 1 goal in 4 (played generally for Juve ofc)

Perrotta: 0 goals in 21

 

Glad that you understand the purpose of this exercise and you make some interesting comments too (personally I wouldn't say Rivaldo was better or more influential as Zidane between 1998 - 2002 but that is for another thread - I think Rivaldo should have been more productive excl. penalties, at UCL KO stages too, to have that case).

Key is here players who reached a good/great level in both halves of the decade. Thus Messi and Cristiano are not the primary candidates.

Cristiano wasn't all that great or influential before 2006 (certainly not before the 2nd half of the 2005-06 season) and - if we are harsh - the same can be said about the last 1.5 years of this decade (considering the opportunities per game received in 2008-09, that he was the main man and shot taker, and his adaptation + injury at the start of the Madrid period).

Messi showed flashes of his promise between 2006 and 2008 but was too often injured, not particularly influential yet (convincingly bringing Barca to a higher level), not needed in the 2006 CL triumph and then completely nullified by Liverpool in 2007. The 2007 Copa America with an 'easy' route and then losing 3-0 to Brazil's B/C-team ..... Andsoforth... (CONCACAF's Mexico reached the semis; them winning the tournament would be like Morocco winning euro 2020)

But please don't do that discussion here, please not another Messi/Ronaldo discussion. Whether Zidane belongs here is also arguable, but had at least high personal notes in both halves of this decade (at 18 months into the 2nd half.. the Spain and Brazil matches).

Messi and Ronaldo didn't do enough before 2005, period.