Best football players of all time

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by stcv1974, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    A lot of comments regarding Rensenbrink and comparisons to Cruyff I notice (translating a few to get a fuller understanding now!). The Spanish vote indeed includes Cruyff, with the comment that he is still of the highest class I notice (notable as he plays there; like Rensenbrink and Belgium I suppose too) although picking Beckenbauer (similarly regarded as still being top class) and Rensenbrink too ahead for the year as a whole.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, check alsof the Scandinavian voters for example to notice regional preferences.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    Here are the some good bits from his very last TV interview, the full version (recorded March 2015). It is clearly not among his best I'd say, but I think you understand why I remembered (the part on 'best players' especially), and that it was his last one longer than 10 minutes makes it ofc more significant.

    Show Spoiler

    Interviewer: "Johan, you have it busier than the accumulation of the royals together, I think."

    "[Laughs] In these periods it has always been demanding."



    Interviewer: "Is there a period you aren't that busy."

    "Yes, in the winter months, because then less is happening outdoors, less with children going on, school and football seasons are underway. Then I take my rest."



    Interviewer: "In a moment you will be sitting still, pose for the painters. Not the usual three hours, but one hour because of your life in this period."

    "That is the most difficult perhaps."



    Interviewer: "Because are you a silent seater of nature?"

    "[Laughs] No, I am not I'm afraid. About the only time I sit quiet is when I'm puzzling."



    Interviewer: "And the people will start looking at you in detail, how do you find that?"

    "Brain at zero, staring straightforward, because there isn't another choice right?"



    Interviewer: "Do you find yourself a neat man in the mirror?"

    "No... I do not think about these things. I don't contemplate about that. I have to say, I rarely see myself in the mirror. Very often they - my wife, children - need to say "you should shave yourself because.." then I'm looking and see I have a small beard. Or the suit."


    Interviewer: "Really?"

    "I don't have much attention for it."



    Interviewer: "Many people around you fall to the ground when they see you, in a positive or negative way, but you are actually nothing more than a skinny man."

    "Yes true, but that is because other people project charisma onto you, just because you can do certain things very well. And for the rest... I cannot change myself so they have to accept me how I am, or not accept me."



    Interviewer: "Do you allow it to make yourself mad by all the fuss around you?"

    "No, no. That is.. Maybe when I was young it happened sometimes, but the latter years not really. And the last years it has only gotten worse, the madhouse, in some ways. Because of the smartphones, Facebook or how that is all called. That is...... If I'm not mistaken, 25 years ago three billion people in the world knew who I was and my professions, and currently it appears to be well over 5 billion."



    Interviewer: "Yes but what is that, it is only a cloud, you cannot grab it"

    "Yes indeed. That are numbers and figures to put away, and it is also that it perpetuates itself. Because whenever I want to do things, start something new from the ground, it is effectively demanded that I attach directly my name and thus my reputation directly to what I do. But luckily I don't own a smartphone so I'm not really bothered by it, and I'd like to not forget the original motivation and the goal of whatever thing I like to start."


    [...]

    Painter 1: "If you see old images of yourself, that young protagonist with the 1970s hair-dress, the long hair. Is it then like you are seeing someone else? Or do you still recognize yourself in this person?"

    "No, you look in a different manner to your former self, it is not how others tend to perceive you. What I can remember though, now you make me remember of the long hair, are the thousands of letters and the talks on the streets by mothers who started complaining that I had to cut down my hair because the children refused to trim their hair too."



    Painter 1: "Nice."

    "If I see a video or a photograph it is more like a tape recorder starts to roll in your head, and then you remember many previous things."



    Interviewer: "I find it funny that you was chatting with a painter, who said "yeah I cannot talk and paint at the same time" and how that was with football, but I believe it was hard for you to play without never talking."

    "No but he is on his own creating his thing, and if you play football you play with an array of people. Constant differences, people run to the wrong direction, and then you need to look where everyone's standing. That is basic... Overview. It is in many ways also simpler to do than creating a painting out of nothing."


    Interviewer: "You are a creative communicator anyway right?"

    "It is certainly that I am not very silent, to put in this way - to keep it polite for myself and my grammatical babbling."

    [...]

    Interviewer: "You were dressed in a skinny but dowdy green suit. You looked like a regal but unfashionable thin Lord or so [aged 18]."

    "Yes, that is the thing my future wife changed. Other trousers, other shoes. I came from Betondorp, and yeah, fashion never interested me that much."


    Interviewer: "This was your neat suit but your wife thought 'this must change'."

    "This cannot continue, it must change. It doesn't match with your character."


    Interviewer: "What were your dreams back then. With what was you occupied in your mind? You was eighteen"

    "Yes, yes... I think I was only busy with football in the first place. Secondly, there was the enormous transition from the boy of Betondorp to almost instantly becoming internationally famous. Having no father."


    Interviewer: "What did this to you? Could you handle it?"

    "Yes I think so, with the benefit of hindsight. You know that if you grow up without a father that you need to look out, be attentive to many things. Of course you have a mother who takes care of you, and those things, but still you miss something. And that 'something', I have to say, was always picked up well by many trainers of Ajax. That was Michels of course in his time, but also Spurgeon, Van der Veen. Those have helped to let me shape myself through football. And I was, when I looked back at it, autodidactic but also stubborn and obstinate."


    Interviewer: "You stubborn? This must be the first time I hear this [sarcasm]."

    "To say it a bit as a punchline, when I was eighteen I had only one diploma and that was my swimming license. For the rest no diplomas.”


    Interviewer: “Only the A license.”

    “No, no. I had also the C swimming license. But at any rate, relatively little formal education and education is of course very important. And I had of course the luck - maybe because I was a good footballer and the trainers recognized I had cognitive talents that they didn't have – that many people always helped you. Others don't have the luck but they need to live on too I suppose.


    After I quit playing and had gathered some ideas, did certain things, people within football said to me 'you could play nice, you can coach fine, but you did not receive an education'. Thus then uhmmm... It frightened me, I should add. Until I came across professors and executives in a few countries and those made it obvious to me and said 'very often I use things that you said, your thinking has a reaching inspiration for others'. And I was like 'you as minister?', said it laughing and I was baffled of course. 'Yes, what makes you think that... you only did not complete many schools, but you have walked through the university of life. You have lived everywhere, you speak many languages, you do this, in the 1970s you organized on your own a charity match for the flooding victims in Spain, and you do that. You know more than you realize within that bubble.' That made a light switch was hit and pieces in my head became arranged.”

    […]

    Interviewer: “Do you have the feeling that you have been lucky?”

    “Yes, without fortune nobody fares well. I have received from God aptitudes and qualities that are nicely spread out.”



    Interviewer: “From God you think?”

    “So to speak, by manner of speaking. What can it be. But that is the main luck.”


    Interviewer: "What are your qualities?"

    "What are my qualities... That I have once in a while an idea that is good. A reasonable - as far as football is concerned - a reasonable overview. I can think properly. I can help people quite well. Yes, you possess also weak aspects of course. Writing down things. Remember things. That type of qualities. The bureaucratic..."


    Interviewer: "That is not what you are fond of."

    "Not fond of and I have never committed myself to it.”


    Interviewer: “You have people close to you.”

    “I have a wife who has been good at it. All stupid things I've done have been intercepted very well. And also a good general overview, a sound opinion, can think along fine. That is always very welcome. That is what by accidence you find out."

    […]

    Painter: “He has still something boyish and youthful somehow. Something vivid.”

    "Yes I think one of the greatest gifts and talents you can provide to people is that you make them laugh. You also receive a lot of inspiration and energy in return I find."


    Interviewer: "While there are also people who see you as possessed, obsessive, solemn. The 'laughing' side is maybe not always on display to the same amount."

    "But they see me when I have to talk about football. Football is for me serious, although it needs to be fun and joyful as well - never forget that. When I hear others talk, journalists, then I think he sits in the pub and is just saying random things. Those don't have the understanding, that grasp, to possess qualities in the first place. People give opinions, that is all nice and well, and journalists are paid to write according how the wind blows but you cannot accuse them of possessing know-how." (you hear the others laugh) "That is just a fact. It is the same for you too. Imagine I go standing next to you and start to say 'I see this and that'. Then you might think 'you are friendly and you are decent but it doesn't make much sense'."


    Interviewer: “Is there still know-how would you say?”

    “Yes, I think so, just not in the Netherlands itself. More than almost any other country in the world the Dutch are very eager to go abroad. Too soon arguably, even though it is understandable.

    In particular in the field of youth and development there are qualified people with know-how, but they tend to work at bigger and better equipped organizations and clubs abroad. Marcel Lucassen, to name one example. There are problems with our own football association as well - who force those people out, also - but I have been saying this for the best part of five decades.

    There is still a lot of room for improvement in football though, otherwise I hadn't jumped in a few years back, and don't look surprised when Ajax plays an European final again in the future. Others laugh at me, but I think it is still possible to win the Champions League, or play a final. Even the Europa League they don't believe, with the budget Ajax has.”



    Interviewer: "What are the footballers in your life that has impressed you? Who are the best?"

    "Oh, that is for various reasons an impossible question to answer. But despite me indicating this so, I understand that with my background people ask it to me very often. There are many players, also slightly less heralded ones, that I liked and value as just as important. The intrinsic, inherent differences are often very small anyway.

    A few people have recently recalled to me that at the end of the 20th century my answer was Beckenbauer to France Football. I don't know why I did, but probably to give a different perspective than usual. If you ask me he wasn't really a defender, so don't look too much at the goals conceded by some teams, and I'd guess he created as many goals as for example Zidane, Ronaldinho, George Best or Maradona did in their career at the top level."


    […]

    Interviewer: “Do you like it to grow older? Is becoming older nice?”

    “Now you are at this age it is much nicer to give something, make happy, help someone - instead of as you yourself would receive something. I think many things were perceived in a different contrast when you were young, and have a different shade of the same color when you are an older person. What is more endearing and activating if there is a child, that has a problem, or whoever else actually, that you can help him? Become more autonomous?

    And I found out this really cost me no effort, so why wouldn't you? Then it becomes almost a moral imperative I felt, and it is also very heartwarming and delightful to do.”


    Interviewer: “It is for your own joy too.”

    “I really have to admit that yes, I find it so nice when people smile. That also makes me smile in myself – others see me and think I am not entirely sober in my mind, but well, I very much like it to do.”


    Interviewer: "Are you sometimes afraid and scared for things."

    "Not any more. But one has experienced several times of course that there are forces in the football establishment - to call it this way - who want to see you go."


    Interviewer: "Your father has died early, your grandfather and great-grandfather too. Your second father as well."

    "Well yes, I live for 23 years in extra time one can say. In injury time. No I don't have problems with growing older, even though more shortcomings arise. You can't do the things like you did in the past."


    Interviewer: "What shortcomings?"

    "Now, you want to play a bit of football at times, and if you have played for 10 minutes you're already a bit grasping for air. While usually, as I was used to, this was not the case. So I don't make an obsession any more of golf, that I play bad - OK, then I have played bad. Fine. Tomorrow a new chance."


    Interviewer: "You can accept losing nowadays?"

    "Not always, but in this example yes."


    Interviewer: "But a loss in life I mean. Losing things in life."

    "There are things you have to accept. If someone dies it is a loss, a great loss. But you are also at a certain age and experience that if someone else has a loss, that you can assist. Maybe also because you have had such losses too. There are people who are in this regard in great troubles, and for that matter I have had a lot of fortune and luck."


    Interviewer: "You are a lucky one right?"

    "Yes I feel so. More instances of luck in the end than misfortune. In the way early loss of family was covered I was very lucky, despite still missing a part of your upbringing in the end."

    [... continues a bit more, OK...]



    As an appendix/extra, I saw this lately popping up, which was taken from a 'Soccer AM' interview (September 2017) it is stated below twitter.

     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I see at first glance already some interesting answers about beauocracy as opposed to knowledge and things like that. Also he confirms his FF vote was not entered backwards and gives his reasons "I don't know why....but to give a different perspective maybe" in essence which is what we maybe suspected I think....(while at other times he had seemed o suggest Pele or something, but always is at least consistent to say it's basically impossible I think).
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup: Will probably hear it when you have read the rest
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I will have a longer read. Maybe only posting extra things if I really feel it adds something (as everyone can read it so I'd be at risk of just repeating things they can see, but I promise I'll read it in full and I am interested to do so anyway).
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just to quickly go back to the DBS Calcio ratings for the Premier League, I thought I'd check what De Bruyne's are so far this season and indeed, assuming they are not more generous this season again (doesn't necessarily seem so from top 20 - I can see coaches are being rated for that league now though which IIRC might be new), they are sensational at the moment. But of course a player doesn't normally maintain his best form for a whole season (which is why it's not always fair/realistic to include part-season ratings at the top of a list):

    Yesterdays ratings not included at least I'm sure of course....

    (Edit - Oh I'm sure copying and pasting used to work but now only the clubs are shown - anyway De Bruyne has 7.625, followed by Pogba, and the next rating is for coach Guardiola....followed by Sterling, Coutinho, Eriksen, David Silva, Sane, Aguero, Morata, Kane, Matic, Mooy, Antonio, Moussa Dembele, Young, Jesus, Lemina, Phil Jones, Azpilicueta)

    [​IMG] 7.625
    2 [​IMG] 7.200
    3 [​IMG] 7.188
    4 [​IMG] 7.100
    5 [​IMG] 7.075
    6 [​IMG] 7.063
    7 [​IMG] 6.938
    8 [​IMG] 6.900
    9 [​IMG] 6.850
    10 [​IMG] 6.829
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    So I've been able to find them all up to 1993 on Soccer Nostalgia. Could you let me know where the rest are?

    Thanks in advance
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    To confirm here rather than just by PM, I did go through it all now more carefully, and I like the descriptions about making people smile, helping people etc...and by extension his perspective on Golf at that time too I suppose (reflecting the mature, relaxed, attitude maybe). Good choice not to have a smartphone maybe!

    Yes, I see now you already picked out the answer about best players yourself (I also had just glanced at your text originally). Maybe that is the most insightful part for us from a football perspective (and helping me re: my FF thread and removing an uncertainty that had been brought up), but I like his answers in general.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ah OK, yes if I would have liked to know your impression by pm then I had asked or contacted you by pm recently.

    Yes, I like that he indicates that materialism becomes less important with age (i.e. Maslow).
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I will look. Maybe it can be that 1993 and 1998 were the last one I saw from memory. Now I think about it the 1995 I had in mind was the Onze Mondial and WS readers vote.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1287 PuckVanHeel, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    Yeah, this comparison happened a lot and very often.

    Also by Shoot! magazine back then and the kicker preview for the 1978 World Cup (which I saw today and yesterday - thanks to 'soccer nostalgia'). Although kicker had literally as headline "Holland only half the pedigree without Cruijff", going by his form and level in the recent times. Comparisons in Shoot! were further fueled when they discovered JC14 helped/advised Rensenbrink to play as well as is possible.

    This is what Rensenbrink himself said about it per Shoot! magazine.

    [​IMG]


    De Bruyne (since you mention him and his top ratings in the post above) has been compared to him since he was 18 years old, too. Not by the Dutch, but the Belgians.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...er-compared-him-to-johan-cruyff-a7589716.html

    That's an article of 2016, but here 29 December 2010 for example. Although Frank Vercauteren (the successor of this Vanhaezebrouck) disagreed with the comparison and general idea.

    De Bruyne himself said about this in 2015:

    "Very exaggerated praise of course. Vanhaezebrouck is allowed to say something like that, but you have to be able to relativize it. I even had to laugh, because frankly, I know Cruijff by name and I met him a few times, but never saw a lot of him as a player, although I'm playing with his back number 14. I have to appreciate, no more. "

    Yet De Bruyne knows that, like Cruijff, he is not the easiest to handle. "Because I want to give my opinion, in Belgium that's not the habit. In that sense, I'm more like the average people in Holland, straightforward."

    About José Mourinho: "I did not feel like I would ever get a starting place and chance under him. That's also what I told him."

    Also noted (in part) here:
    http://www.soccernews.nl/news/320187/De_Bruyne:_Op_dat_vlak_ben_ik_meer_het_Nederlandse_type
    Or here:
    https://www.hln.be/sport/voetbal/be...ruyne-ben-meer-nederlander-dan-belg~a41e92ab/

    Thought this would tie in nicely somehow. In 2013 he did say he played with number 14 (since he was a junior) as sort of a tribute too, yeah.
     
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  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Something I can see going through the old votes is that the Irish selectors were a law unto themselves.

    In 1976 they picked Ali Kemali because he had impressed in a friendly recently against Ireland and there are few attackers "of his temper".

    They also continuously went for their own players. Paul McGrath got 3 votes across his whole career and they all came from the Irish voter. They also picked Frank Stapleton, Don Givens, Pat Bonner and Liam Brady.

    Also interesting that for a long time Wales, Northern Ireland and Cyprus didn't get a vote.
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The archetypal lieutenant Johan Neeskens said something similar recently:

    http://www.sportstarlive.com/football/neeskens-money-is-destroying-football/article19940244.ece

    I did think about him instead of Davids for the national team XI, but left out the thoughts otherwise it would become too long.
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    When I started watching the Ajax vs Marseille game on Footballia from 71/72, I began to wonder if it could be a good one to highlight for him even (and also Keizer maybe) even though it had been Cruyff I had thought about looking at. I didn't get that far into the game though so it's only early impressions (nice game to see some glimpses of Skoblar's abilities, including with close efforts etc and not only actual goals/assists, I noticed already too though).

    As I said by PM, I really like how your midfield would play in reality I think, with Cruyff and Wilkes dribbling and playing the ball fluently from midfield (maybe my comments about Pires when he occasionally played in the centre hint at that sort of preference - he also partially did so vs Valencia in 00/01 - the game I mentioned for Vieira on the other thread today - as Wiltord was almost like a 3rd attacker leaving a midfield of Parlour/Vieira/Pires in the scond half I think, elbeit with Pires still quite a lot on the left side so not sure exactly what the instructions had been once Ljungberg came off). Now maybe I'm tempted to suggest I'd choose Wilkes in that role in a Dutch XI myself (or Rensenbrink but then I increasingly would consider he would play further forwards and Cruyff indeed as midfielder albeit perhaps I'd slot him nominally as left of the 3....but again going with the positive/attacking intent with Gullit at right back seems tempting lol, which would free up a midfield slot!). Otherwise I would be torn between Van Hanegem, Sneijder and Seedorf perhaps for LM in a 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree, with Bergkamp and Cruyff in support of Van Basten, and indeed I'd go with Neeskens in CM....but for sure Davids excelled for the Dutch NT, especially in WC98. One of Van Hanegem/Sneijder/Seedorf wouldn't even make my second XI I suppose though, as I think I'd like Ronald De Boer in the RM role more than any of those as he would fit better I think (and has a bit more in terms of footballing/attacking capabilities than Jansen, while still being a very good 'team player' I think - not only when in possession).

    I know you picked your XI largely on NT history btw - otherwise as you say you'd be tempted with Seedorf in the XI yourself. Good to see your XI anyway, and the evolution in your thoughts from when you picked a 4-4-2 XI by PM in your early days (which may have been less based on NT displays even but not sure - I remember you slotted Van Aerle at RB in that one at the time but can't find the relevant PM now!).
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1291 PuckVanHeel, Oct 30, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    You can see that here if you like

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z7fqd

    In terms of 'skills' I think he's maybe better against Celtic in the previous campaign.

    Think for club career there is a good argument to make in favor of Neeskens, but for national team it is close (at least) and because Davids was more of an anchor than Neeskens (in skillset and most used position) I went for him.

    Davids had effectively four chances to make an impression, and was very good in two tournaments and then in 2004 good against Czech Republic (see that video) and also hosts Portugal in the semi finals (kicker rated him as 2nd best player on the field, and there are some others who rated him as the best performer).

    This is comparable to what Neeskens can show, even though France Football rated him 5/6 for the 1978 final while struggling with injuries and intermittent appearances this tournament.

    Neeskens only played 49 caps in his career but that's not only his fault and there are more with similar or lower numbers (Cruijff, Van Hanegem, Rensenbrink etc.).

    He did score 17 goals, but this includes 7 penalties that were either drawn by the other Johan or by Rensenbrink. If you subtract this he scored his goals against Greece, Czechoslovakia, Norway (three goals), Iceland, East Germany, Brazil and Poland. It is slightly better - and the chemistry with others worked good - but not a lot. Here Davids his national team goals. He often played as an anchor, but if he scored it was a golden goal against Yugoslavia outside the box, outside the box goal against Argentina, two goals against Belgium while trailing 0-2 behind... So considering all that I went for him.
     
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  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I remembered you'd made a vid for Cruyff vs Marseille, so starting to look at that game was probably also to see context as well as refresh my memory, as well as indeed see how the likes of those players (Keizer/Neeskens/Skoblar but theoretically it could have been others who started to take my eye more) were playing. I'd thought it was 'good but not necessarily among the very best' sort of range for Cruyff maybe, and possibly hadn't started to re-think more positively although one run and cut back to Keizer was excellent and his goal from outside the box was quality of course later in the game.

    Interesting to think, for a player like Cruyff, whether the 'production' often matches the best games or not. Obviously the Sweden game in the WC being prime example of a great performance (and with several potential assists to be fair) in a 0-0. From highlights maybe the home to Belgium game in qualifying for that tournament could even be similar (for Rensenbrink too perhaps, but I didn't see very long highlights really, but just some quality moments in creating chances from those two).
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1293 PuckVanHeel, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    It would help to have the full games of course, and it depends on the role and position from which he tried to exert his influence (the 1977 England game a different role and job than the 1969 one for sure), but if you limit it to the same 1971-72 campaign it is possible.

    vs Arsenal
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x33h8ya
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x33t2y3

    vs Benfica
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4syfr0
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2k9hy4

    (as example)

    That video that you found where Brian Clough showed early 1974 what he thought was so good about him actually shows clips from matches where he didn't score (he also showed the 1973 mid-air assist against Poland, a one touch pass with his left foot - just checked this scene and Clough's comments now; Clough used this one touch assist with his weaker foot as an example).

    I'm doubting a bit about this one.

    With attacking midfielder Zidane I'd say that his best games are games where he produced (because he was perhaps not so much a man of persistent and consistent influence week-in-week-out - which his relatively low GI rating and such also suggests, compared to Figo, compared to Ronaldo), but with a Roy Keane not necessarily even if his most famous games are games where he scored.
     
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  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I remember those Clough comments and the clips (also for Deyna vs the Netherlands I recall).

    Maybe even interesting to consider for the likes of Xavi and Iniesta.

    I suppose it depends what 'producing' entails too - pre-assists deep in midfield to set a move going that results in a goal for example could be included.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For Rijkaard I did pick out two games where he did not score or assist, while he has a record of goals and assists in some of the bigger matches, semi finals and finals of major competitions (Cup Winners Cup, European Cup/Champions League, Euro 1992, Intercontinental Cup, European Supercup).

    After seeing the 15 minutes highlights again of the away match vs Milan (where he received a standing ovation) I did not really think otherwise although I can't say for sure it is a level above the other games.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, if any of his Euro 88 matches came into the equation (perhaps they shouldn't but he played very well in general - in defence as you had him in your Dutch XI) then that adds more without goal contribution/involvement. Certainly for defenders in general there'd be many examples though of course.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here it is :) (you found the video)

    [​IMG]

    On video:
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x67d0xp

    Preview guide:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here Jackie Charlton on the expected fouling:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x67dmgv

    N.B. it is typical and telling how often his first name is spelled with double n by the Brits....
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978 asked me if I would like to translate or highlight some things.

    A quick translation provides this for the first piece.

    "

    It will also be a stupid play, striking for the ball purists. Yet the comparison between the past and present champions remains a fun, challenging pastime, however much demanded. And watch out there is not just the scorned Bar Sport to clash in these imaginary duels, clutches of figures and always clear memories. A large array of workmen is divided with equally fanaticism in parties. "The greatest of all time was Pelé." "But jokes, and where did Stefano put him in?" Recorded conversations.

    And so, while Italian politics chased the mythical center, the sport pursued the extremes. Or Coppi or Bartali. For Mazzola or Rivera. With Schumacher or Villeneuve. That is why the umpteenth demand set by today's chronicle opens up the top two: better Maradona or better Ronaldo? For Napoli fans on Saturday, October 18, at the Inter's internal match, there were no doubts: "Ronaldo did not give a Diego's hernia" wrote on a banner at the epic of that Pelé that always for Neapolitans was lower as well.

    And Ronaldo, the Phenomenon of 2000, ready to replicate: "For me the greatest Zico remains." Botta and answer. When Maradona left Italy with dignity, in a dramatic night of January 1991, there was a 15-year-old boy playing in San Cristóvo, known only to a few intimate people. To think that, in a little more than a shine, that child would be the heir to the throne of world football, well, it was an act of courage allowed only to the visionaries.

    Then came Ronaldo the regional title Minar Gerais with the Cruzeiro (1994), the top scorer in the Netherlands (Psv '96) and that with Barcelona in Spain last year, shortening the abyss between dreams and reality. They also came to the Cup of Cups with the Catalan club, the America Cup Cup with Brazil and the consecration to Fifa's best player. At the same age, Maradona had won among the juniors (championships, rankings, world championships), but the scepter of the world was still far away.

    "Yet there are no comparisons," he says peremptory from Argentina Ornar Sivori, "Maradona was no stronger than Ronaldo at 21, he was at 17." His head has no hesitation: "Maradona was technically superior to his age and as a stunt. To find out if Ronaldo will try Diego, what I exclude, I recall in 5 or 6 years. For now, Maradona confronts himself only against Pelé, Di Stefano and Cruijff. "

    However, there are still some facts to be able to give birth to this exciting remote duel. So to start, goals. Well, in the first six league games in Italy, Maradona (season 84-85) had scored three goals. Ronaldo has already made five, almost double, with jewels packed in the Italian Cup in Piacenza as overweight.

    Mancini: Ronaco is more attacking

    "It is not correct as a benchmark: Maradona came to a Napoli that would grow in the years to come, Ronaldo entered an already competitive Inter. Speaking is the lazy Roberto Mancini, one who in class is still among the most suitable to judge. "Ronaldo could also score more than Maradona in his career," adds Mancio, "because he's more than the second. But Maradona had the free kicks, he assists. In general, they are very subjective rankings, it is a fact of personal tastes. "

    There are not enough other parameters, such as those of the votes in our league and the goals of Coppa Italia (3 the bra-silian, 2 the Argentine), to cripple the confidence of the Ostrobothnians. Those like Cesar Menotti, for example, that Pibe knew him as a child and that today, when he came to the Italian championship on the bench of the Samp, Ronaldo finds himself an opponent. "The greatest footballer in the last 15 years is Maradona, a true champion and able to win two championships in Naples and a World Cup." And should you choose one of the two at the same time? "I would not hesitate for a moment: I would take Diego. I remember him at 18: he was a kid who lived for football, he was in bed with the ball. That is why I do not accept those who say that Maradona was weak in character, time and success have ruined him. "

    The Flaco is excited by talking about past champions and, from the height of its impressive experience, it is passionate to hear it draw up its own charts as a master with the first class. "The greatest Pele remains, I also told him when they were asking for a confrontation with the young Maradona. The 1300 goals of "O Rei" will not reach anyone. At 18 he won his first World Cup and today we are surprised because Ronaldo does some things at twenty-one. "

    Cannavaro: Diego more man-team

    Everyone is lit in the dispute. For Altafini, Ronaldo even remembers Pelé in the snout of goal, for Aldo Serena the Inter player remembers Careca and Van Basten. And compared to Maradona? Fabio Cannavaro replied that Ronaldo had faced him in the French Tournament and Pibe had spied on him from Napoli's draw. "We do not joke: the Brazilian is a good player, but Diego had technical qualities out of the ordinary. His feet did anything, a crazy technique that, like all the kids in Naples, admired in training. It was also more useful to the team, Maradona, he could score and score. If Ronaldo blocks in the area-goals end the dangers, Maradona was more man-team, more insidious even behind the tips. "

    And to avail of those Argentine champion assistance was above all Antonio Careca, which time

    "It's almost blasphemous: Diego is superior to everything in Ronaldo, only those who do not understand football can say the opposite. Maradona played the ball more, he was more imaginative, richer in class. Moreover, the left-handers are becoming more and more good at seeing the right ones. Ronaldo, if marked with attention, goes into trouble and in Italy he will always have tough life. Your disabilities I remember them well. In short: Diego's level will never come to fruition. "

    Phenomenon wins money and money

    Contrary to Careca, in a particular ranking Ronaldo has not only reached, but has already passed Maradona. And that's the biggest investment in a business kick like the modern one. The Brazilian, who last week reached with Nike an understanding that will turn him into a "baffo" ambassador when his career is over (Guerrilla's fantasy has been a prorecian!), Is in fact costing al-l 'Inter almost 150 billion, 25 billion indexed today to Naples for Maradona, which then earned thirty times as much investment. Both, the only real point of contact, have as their arrival squad, before Italy, Barcelona. And both number 10 on the shirt, Diego by vocation, Ronie by necessity. For the rest, different characteristics, heterogeneous attitudes, almost opposite temperaments. "Ronaldo may someday become the fifth king of football after Di Stefano, Pelé, Cruijff and Maradona," concludes Menotti. "But what is my greatest dream? I just want to see them playing together together for a day. Diego to launch and Ronaldo to conclude, with that assassination by area killer. Despite my age, I'm convinced that those two would turn my head. "From duel to duel, not bad.
    "


    It can be translated better, but I think this is already clear enough somewhat .
     
    comme, Sexy Beast and PDG1978 repped this.

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