Best football players of all time

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by stcv1974, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No major ideas for important additions come to mind really no, and looks like you did a very thorough job. Perhaps could be interesting to see for someone like Payet, although in the end you might judge that he didn't stay long enough or play enough minutes. Surprisingly high ratio for Javier Hernandez (probably part-games for Man Utd contributing to a high rate per 90 minutes). Someone like Rashford would be considered in the next time period anyway I suppose. Maybe Yaya Toure should be listed in the previous list, but you already calculated his ratio initially (same for McManaman for 90-2000 I think maybe).

    Interesting to see them all anyway, and compare the ones in similar roles/positions. Of course sometimes length of stay and suchlike will be different.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, Hernandez was subbed in 54 games but has also started exactly 54 games too. He is only on 5200 minutes though and I felt it is better to put him in the 'others' category. He's a bit like the Solskjaer of his time although the Norwegian of course did it in big matches when Manchester United was (very) competitive. Maybe like Thierry Henry or Aguero for example he's also helped by coming directly in an already very strong team during his early 20s, rather than being at the start of a project like a Shearer or Bergkamp.

    Payet is on 0.64 with 4100 minutes (4088).

    Recap:

    1990 - 2000

    Cantona 0.73
    Les Ferdinand 0.68
    Shearer 0.63

    Others:
    Klinsmann 0.79
    Vialli 0.67
    Asprilla 0.65
    Yeboah 0.62


    1995 - 2005

    Bergkamp 0.72
    Hasselbaink 0.71
    Owen 0.65

    Others:
    Solskjaer 0.83
    Wiltord 0.62
    Suker 0.63
    Weah 0.53


    2000 - 2010


    Thierry Henry 0.95
    Drogba 0.79
    Van Nistelrooij 0.70

    Others:
    Reyes 0.74
    Gudjohnsen 0.59
    Shevchenko 0.53


    2005 – 2015


    Van Persie 0.82
    Rooney 0.70
    Torres 0.69
    Tevez 0.66
    Berbatov 0.64

    Others:
    Cristiano Ronaldo 0.66
    Van der Vaart 0.66
    Robben 0.64
    Nani 0.64


    2010 – 2020


    Aguero 0.90
    Sturridge 0.78
    Kane 0.76
    Alexis Sanchez 0.76

    Others:
    Luis Suarez 0.87
    Javier Hernandez 0.82
    Diego Costa 0.80
    Dzeko 0.77
    De Bruyne 0.72



    Hope it was worth it.
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    One name that came to mind late is Gustavo Poyet. Could be his assists rate wasn't so great, but he certainly scored quite a lot of open play goals in some periods.
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I don't think he'll be at the top but among defenders I'd be interested in Leighton Baines' numbers.
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That's a good idea yeah. Could be top for left-backs I'd imagine. I did think about Graeme Le Saux. Then Bjornebye (aided by relatively short PL career and a period with regular assists as Puck noted), Harte etc are other possibilities. Irwin maybe not so much because his rate will have decreased quite a bit in later years I think, and similar story for Pearce who might have been a better call for 1st Division players rather than Premier League, although he did get a number of penalty goals.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Andy Hinchcliffe could be another one to check though in that respect.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1257 PuckVanHeel, Sep 19, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    Poyet was already in 'my' 1995 - 2005 list. He's on 0.53. In some respects he was Lampard's predecessor though Lampard ran more and worked harder.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/sports_talk/1381706.stm
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-Tottenham-oldies-as-Chelsea-eye-Lampard.html

    His assist rate wasn't bad but the scoring was certainly greater. 53 non-penalty goals (+ 1 pen) and 24 assists. He left Chelsea at age 33 and stayed in the league until 36 (he had 66 more starts).

    I had already noted down many defenders but adding a few more it would be like this.

    Show Spoiler

    Defenders:

    Petrescu 0.32 (16000 minutes)
    Ian Harte 0.25
    Hinchcliffe 0.22
    Le Saux 0.19
    S. Coleman 0.19
    Bjornebye 0.19
    Riise 0.18
    Ivanovic 0.18
    Baines 0.17
    Scharner 0.17
    Matt Elliott 0.17
    Steve Watson 0.16
    Albert 0.15
    Steve Staunton 0.15
    Alan Kimble 0.14
    Lescott 0.13
    Glen Johnson 0.13
    Cahill 0.12
    Ashley Cole 0.12
    G. Neville 0.11
    Unsworth 0.11
    Denis Irwin 0.11
    Terry 0.11
    Evra 0.11
    Hyypia 0.10
    Gary Kelly 0.10
    Pearce 0.10
    Gallas 0.09

    Others:
    Ziege 0.39 (7171 minutes; completed 'only' 60 games as wing-back)
    Ian Marshall 0.27 (defender/striker)
    Valencia 0.26


    Please tell if someone else might be high.

    I also saw Petrescu a bit for Foggia and Genoa in Serie A and he looked quite good there and not shaky in defense (maybe understandably so with the emphasis/balance back then and with the foreigner restriction). It was the 1994 World Cup that made him move to England I think.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    See above.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1259 PuckVanHeel, Sep 21, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017

    Just as clarification: I was aware that Weah is only on 1400 minutes, but given his name and age I left him in. He was 33-34 in the 8 months he played there, and that compensates. Started 14, played 18. As discussed before, it is often overlooked that he never took penalties or free kicks, and that he was an equally prolific assister as scorer.

    Also aware that Suker's ratio is actually slightly higher than Wiltord (0.01 difference), but with the vast difference in minutes the reverse order is justified. Suker was 31-32 in the two English seasons.

    The only two where I was flipping a coin were Shevchenko and Van der Vaart, although the latter still has 4700 minutes registered.

    Of course, relative to a Drogba they expected more of Shevchenko. Both strikers cancelled each others strengths perhaps. Maybe his type of striker wasn't ready for Chelsea/EPL yet. If you watch his video with the 22 goals for Chelsea, then it are almost all true goals. He also started 30 league games, and therefore I included him in the end at the 'others' category.

    Les Ferdinand and Hasselbaink so high might be surprising, but both had a good amount of assists as well (Les Ferdinand 49 assists, Hasselbaink 58 assists). Les Ferdinand of course deferred in some seasons to other main strikers as Shearer, Klinsmann or Robbie Keane. That is how he ended up to be a (simple) assister.

    His running style reminds me a bit of Eusebio.


     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think a young (as per 1999 ish but maybe 2004 version too) Shevchenko would have done great in the PL most likely. Maybe Chelsea wasn't a good fit at that time either, and as you say his finishing ability was (intermittently) there if with a constant stream of service and/or in games against easier defences (in cups etc). Not sure what the dynamic was with Drogba and whether the assumption was he'd be replacing him even when he signed, but Drogba did go on his own scoring spree. Occasionally they clicked well together, such as when Shevchenko flicked a nice header into Drogba's path at Everton and Drogba lashed home from outside the penalty area.

    Maybe a lot of Ferdinand's assists would be headers (not sure tbh though)? I think he wasn't as fluid or agile/nimble as Eusebio (or contemporary Collymore for example) but yeah he could run powerfully with the ball and could score from a dribble (one good one comes to mind from his QPR time, but he occasionally had runs for Newcastle too).
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1261 PuckVanHeel, Sep 25, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
    @wm442433 (who might add help?)

    @PDG1978

    To continue another recurring project: the 1975 to 1998 Ballon d'Or issues are now all complete (plus 1973, as posted in this thread ). These provide very interesting and insightful comments (on who were among the best, rather than who had a chance to win), also on whether/if a South American player could have won, as far as they know (and yes, FF had many correspondents in countries).

    Also: some peculiar rules and instructions, such as the instruction to not vote for Matthews after 1956 (which some voters ignored). And to not vote for Di Stefano in 1958, or after 1961.

    A big thanks has to go to the soccernostalgia.blogspot website, but to a smaller extent also some others (including me ;) )

    Here is 1971.

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    (click to enlarge)
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Like Oliver Holt's commendable 'Periodic Table of Football' work, this below is even more sketchy and incomplete/imperfect by 'So Foot' (June 2015), but nevertheless an interesting idea. Despite the flaws and omissions as well, note that not to every name a direct line is drawn. No direct line to De Boer for example (imho this they have correct).

    Next to some omissions, some inclusions are questionable as well although So Foot has justifications and *quotes* by the included persons.

    Notable is the listing of the then relatively unknown Ernesto Valverde. As if he was standing-by at hindsight (??)

    [​IMG]


    As reminder, this was Holt's periodic table

    [​IMG]
     
  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Sorry to do this but did you have links to where the others were? Were they all on Soccer Nostalgia?

    Thanks
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes they're almost all on soccer nostalgia. I think I found the 1976 edition on twitter though. With this included, it is between 1975 and the 1990s complete.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Feel free to say which ones you cannot find.

    Looking back at 1976 now again it is somewhat funny that the first ever 1st place vote for Platini came from a Swedish voter, while the French voter (Jacques Ferran) left him out of the top five (he did place St Etienne goalkeeper Curkovic at number two). The Swedish voter of 'Idrottsbladet' indicated though that he voted for who he thought/viewed were the best. Cruijff, Curkovic, Wendt and Rocheteau rounded out his top five.
     
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  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    .

    I was reading an article in the archives of a Mexican newspaper and was somewhat taken aback when the old man in his column wrote about what José Manuel Moreno was in football.

    It was a discussion of the great players in history. The author wrote in May of 1986 that Moreno made teams champions, wherever he went. In his first season in Mexico, he made his club champion. In Chile in his first season he made Universitario champions. He then switched to Colo Colo and made them champs. He returned to Argentina to play for Boca Juniors and made them champions. This without mentioning his career at River Plate and for the NT. The unfortunate scenario is that he couldn’t play at the World Cup.

    In his estimation, Maradona, viewed as one of the best in the world at the time, could not even reach his ankles. That’s how good Moreno must have been to suggest that.
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1267 PuckVanHeel, Oct 6, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
    Thanks. That at least gives some additional context about Bekerman's ideas.

    By the way, to get more reliable answers 'Voetbal International' asked first the people for their top 10, and then posed further follow-up questions. Instead of the other way round.

    Some while ago I found an old Italian programme from July 1985 discussing the relative merits and style of Pelé and Cruijff.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzv099
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzv399
    (not uploaded by me - to be clear on this)

    Maybe it is possible to digest what is exactly said there? (at the discussion sections without footage) I heard Platini, Falcao and Maradona are also mentioned, and there is some disagreement between the people there.

    As I showed, Guerin Sportivo had in March 1984 a special feature about him in March 1984, calling him "fuoriclasse" for the level he showed in recent years. Potentially the games he had played against Roma and Tottenham (later in May also Torino, which can be found in the newspaper archives) had some sort of bearing on this.
     
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  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, thanks. Basically the comments are about how they compared in style of play. Platini maybe the closest to Cruijff and may even be better than him, according to Mr Colombo. Falcao resembles him more and Maradona’s dribbling capacity was similar

    The older gentleman is asked to compare Pelé with Cruijff and says that Pelé was born naturally as a phenom, while Cruijff was talented but not physically constructed by nature in the same way as Pelé. Cruijff was however a better organizer in the game, more complete in that regard, while Pelé invented plays out of instinct. Cruijff was more generous and naturally a provider, while Pelé was more individual. But both very diverse type of players.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks. I could decipher the least what Colombo said about Mazzola. Do you have an idea?

    The older guy articulates clearer and sharper to me.
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Mostly about their different functions and ability to operate. Mazzola was an excellent dribbler but Cruijff was quick, a scorer and provider that was dangerous from 40 yards out. Mazzola operated differently and was more limited. He didn’t have neither Cruijff’s speed or range of passes from distance.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Lot of speculation in the press (in the Belgian press too I see now) on where Robben fits as a national team player in the historic hierarchy for Orange, but I hadn't immediately an idea on this - one way or the other.

    Immediately I wanted to know how many came against the minnows, how many against Czech (2 assists at euro 2004 in a classic game)/Portugal/Chile/Mexico/Uruguay/Belgium type of teams and how many against the giants.

    Anyway, for who is interested (too) this is it against the top tier teams (excluding de facto under-23 sides and Olympic teams).

    2005 Germany 2 goals
    2006 England: -
    2008 France 1 goal, 1 assist
    2009 England 1 assist
    2010 Brazil 1 assist
    2010 Spain: -
    2011 Brazil: -
    2012 England 2 goals
    2012 Germany (euro) 1 assist
    2012 Germany (friendly) -
    2013 Italy -
    2014 Spain 2 goals
    2014 Argentina -
    2014 Brazil 1 assist
    2017 France -

    15 games (1233 minutes), 7 goals (0 PK), 5 assists [0.88 goals + assists per 90 minutes against 'the elite']

    Which is to be fair not too different from his general production.
     
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  22. HandofAbel

    HandofAbel Member

    Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jun 19, 2017
    eu estou aqui
    ^ England still considered a giant? Still? And other nations that actually go deep in tournaments and have actually beaten something other then a mid tier team in a tournament knockout out game away from home.

    I defy anyone to show me where in the entire history of major tournament football, England has ever knocked out anything above a mid tier team, aside from 1966 (lol) and 1990.

    The research may shock some. They never, ever have. Not once. But they're a giant.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Well their historical Elo (since 1965) is comparable to anyone but Brazil and Germany. And this is a pretty accurate measurement over multiple decades.

    There is some merit in that they rarely/never knocked out a giant in the knock out stages, but they have done this at group stage level. Furthermore, in crucial encounters they often missed key players, in part thanks to their long season and high octane game.

    It is also not like the absolute elite players of this generation bagged in the goals against England with large volumes (Ibra excluded). It is somewhat misleading to point this out but CR7 and LM10 have exactly 0 goals against England (or - by absence of playing England - vast quantities against other British teams + Ireland).

    Anyway, without England it would be 12 games (998 minutes), 5 goals, 4 assists. Or 0.81 G+A per 90 minutes against 'the elite'.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    So this is the 1976 Ballon d'Or (not on soccer nostalgia blog, as opposed to 1975 and 1977)

    Again, the comments are just as interesting and informative (or more interesting) than the votes itself.


    [​IMG]
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    Maybe also informative to show, in the very same issue (#1603) also a small report on Barcelona, stating Cruijff was back to his best "this year". Which is notable of course since in the previous year 1975 he finished 3rd in the vote.

    [​IMG]

    "Cette année, Cruijff a retrouvé une condition physique impeccable et il est de nouveau l'homme capable de jouer comme personne et de faire jouer tout le monde."

    Which translates as something like:

    "This resurrection of Barcelona is due to the return in form of its captain Johan Cruijff. When the Dutchman is in full possession of his means, he is the man who succeeds in everything: to direct the game, the men and to impose his rhythm at any meeting. This year, Cruijff has regained a impeccable physical condition and is the new man capable of playing as a person and making the whole world play. Three quarters of the goals scored by Barcelona had Cruijff at the origin of the action. His versatility in the context of the team allows him to be as effective in defense, which adds to the abundance of his game. But the first place of Barcelona in the league is not only due to Cruijff [...]"


    Either way, this makes it all from 1971 onward complete (except for 1972 and 1974).

    When making this post I was also thinking about the last recorded television interview that Cruijff did (recorded March 2015; not a brief chat but a real interview I mean). Maybe I'll post tomorrow or Sunday (if there's transcript available to request: tomorrow), because I know you often tend to like it. When I post I think you'll understand why I remembered it.
     
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  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Very nice summary
     

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