Best football players of all time

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by stcv1974, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Surely I leave some out that people might think of but to add 10 more that could be interesting:
    Jurgen Klinsmann
    Steve McManaman
    Matt Le Tissier
    Sergio Aguero
    Michael Owen
    Steven Gerrard
    Yaya Toure
    Alexis Sanchez
    Cesc Fabregas
    Juninho
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Thanks. I had already many of those.


    Non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes

    Henry 0.95
    Aguero 0.90
    Luis Suarez 0.87
    Van Persie 0.82
    Klinsmann 0.79
    Alexis Sanchez 0.76
    Cantona 0.73
    Bergkamp 0.72
    Van der Vaart 0.66
    Cristiano Ronaldo 0.66
    Owen 0.65
    Pires 0.63
    Shearer 0.63
    Le Tissier 0.60
    Sheringham 0.57
    Fabregas 0.56
    Zola 0.56
    Bale 0.47
    Lampard 0.43
    Juninho 0.42
    Scholes 0.40
    Yaya Toure 0.40
    McManaman 0.39
    Gerrard 0.39


    If some more are interesting, I'd be keen to know.

    Scholes does better than I thought here. He has only one penalty while Gerrard and Lampard have 75 together. Scholes has probably also a respectable amount of pre-assists as we recently discovered.
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think that is not a bad selection of strikers, support forwards, AMs and wingers. Adding more forwards/strikers would surely add some more that would fit in that range, but can't think of any (unless peculiar cases or my mind is just not in gear) that would likely be near Henry and Aguero. Consistency in output over time is a factor too I suppose, except if the time in the PL was quite limited, so I tried to keep that in mind.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe Beckham and Dwight Yorke could be added to see where they placed though....
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks. Yes, I've completed this now until at least 50 assists or 100 goals + some of the other players.

    This is possibly the best way to show this because guys who have way more knowledge than me about these matters also prefer to leave penalties out and think non-penalty goals are in general more informative and meaningful.


    That Fieldsend book has by the way an interesting paragraph where the 'ProZone' analists are cited.

    [​IMG]
    If you google on '[player] + prozone' you might find more.


    As you know, imho Zola was also quite good in this. Better than Totti, better than Baggio, possibly even better than Del Piero.


    Henry 0.95
    Aguero 0.90
    Luis Suarez 0.87
    Van Persie 0.82
    Drogba 0.79
    Klinsmann 0.79
    Alexis Sanchez 0.76
    Cantona 0.73
    Bergkamp 0.72
    Hasselbaink 0.71
    Rooney 0.70
    Van Nistelrooij 0.70
    Les Ferdinand 0.68
    Van der Vaart 0.66
    Cristiano Ronaldo 0.66
    Owen 0.65
    Pires 0.63
    Shearer 0.63
    Le Tissier 0.60
    Fowler 0.60
    Ian Wright 0.60
    Beckham 0.58
    Sheringham 0.57
    Fabregas 0.56
    Zola 0.56
    Yorke 0.55
    David Silva 0.54
    Robbie Keane 0.54
    Anelka 0.53
    Crouch 0.53
    Dion Dublin 0.53
    Giggs 0.52
    Defoe 0.50
    Bale 0.47
    Bent 0.47
    Andy Cole 0.45
    Lampard 0.43
    Juninho 0.42
    Solano 0.42
    Scholes 0.40
    Yaya Toure 0.40
    Ashley Young
    McManaman 0.39
    Gerrard 0.39
    Heskey 0.38
    Darren Anderton 0.36
    Barmby 0.36
    Kevin Davies 0.36
    Duff 0.34
    Malbranque 0.31
    Milner 0.31
    Downing 0.26
    Murphy 0.26
    Roy Keane 0.21
    Gareth Barry 0.17
    Baines 0.17


    I will try to complete this further and then move it to the First Division ratings thread. I'll slot this in the time periods (i.e. Rooney 2005 - 2015) and do a 'other notable names' below each period (i.e. Klinsmann, Suarez).
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1231 PDG1978, Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    Yes, interesting project for sure, even if maybe I prefer the stats to be explanatory rather than instructive and think narrowing down the 'best possible option' is not so easy. Bergkamp and as you say Zola did have really good instincts for what was a positive idea/move though, in tune with their team-mates and making use of space etc.

    Thought about them but: Giggs's numbers stand up pretty well considering the long career including more fallow periods (either in form or in goals stats etc due to playing deeper), and Van Nistelrooy's number is high considering mostly based on goals I think (non-penalty goals ofc) even though as I think you pointed out before his assists rate in the CL while at Man Utd was quite good.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe these could also be added in, with probably a competitive rate: Kanchelskis, Ginola, McAllister, Beardsley, Kane, Robben.
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Another couple that came to mind that could definitely be interesting to calculate I think:

    Ole Gunnar Solskjaer - famously scored many goals off the subs bench; not sure he had very many assists although did deputise for Beckham to good effect as right winger occasionally.

    Kevin De Bruyne - his rate to date since signing for Man City will be bolstered by a lot of assists I think and I guess he'd be more in Beckham than Murphy range anyway at the moment.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    De Bruyne is at 0.72. This is indeed quite high for his time.

    Solskjaer is at 0.83. This is aided by that Solskjaer never took a penalty.

    Thanks for the suggestions.
     
  10. fenomeno_football

    fenomeno_football New Member

    Inter
    Brazil
    Sep 5, 2017
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    So this is for 1990 - 2000

    Cantona 0.73
    Les Ferdinand 0.68
    Shearer 0.63
    Ian Wright 0.60
    Le Tissier 0.60
    Sheringham 0.57
    Yorke 0.55
    Dion Dublin 0.53
    Kanchelskis 0.51
    Sutton 0.51
    Andy Cole 0.45
    Beardsley 0.42
    Ginola 0.39
    Rush 0.39
    Hughes 0.37
    Chris Waddle 0.37
    Barnes 0.30
    Platt 0.29
    McClair 0.27
    McAllister 0.26
    Steve Stone 0.26
    Ince 0.24
    Speed 0.22
    Sherwood 0.20
    Roy Keane 0.21


    Others:

    Klinsmann 0.79
    Vialli 0.67
    Asprilla 0.65
    Yeboah 0.62
    Strachan 0.25
    Gullit 0.20
    Gascoigne 0.17



    Any suggestions that might get in for this period?
     
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll let you know if I think of more good/obvious ones Puck.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I found Stan Collymore. Joint 62th in all-time goalscorers. 29 assists. He is on 0.65 per 90 minutes. Looking at his age and his career (at one time he went for a big fee too) he fits best for 1990 - 2000.

    12500 career minutes is however fairly low for an English player. Cantona is on 13800 minutes with four-and-a-half seasons (five seasons minus the ban).
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He was one I thought about suggesting actually, with Georgi Kinkladze, but I felt pretty sure Kinkladze's ratio wouldn't be particularly stand-out (that site for wide PL assists didn't have him on a lot for 95/96 I don't think, although I think you suggested it might miss some for lower table clubs even) and I thought perhaps Collymore's period at Aston Villa would bring his down a fair bit (perhaps it did though) - obviously I was familiar with him at Forest and then I did have in mind he did get a decent number of assists at Liverpool I think and then was productive on a per minute/game basis at Leicester and Bradford too even maybe.

    I guess you could check Benito Carbone and Rob Lee (if you didn't already list them - if you did ignore me lol as I'm not checking right now as I type).
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I had Rob Lee checked for 1990 - 2000. He is on 0.25 per 90 minutes. Similar to many others in is role (at competitive clubs). He has 23546 career minutes. Kinkladze is at 0.25 as well (with 7000 minutes).

    Carbone was in my 1995 - 2005 list, as a new addition now I'm checking this. I had spotted him because 1) he pops up in some lists (FFT's best foreigners list as honorable inclusion) and 2) in one or two seasons he's in the top 10 for overall assisters.

    Here is my preliminary list:

    Show Spoiler

    1995 – 2005

    Bergkamp 0.72 (22200 minutes)
    Hasselbaink 0.71 (21500 minutes)
    Owen 0.65
    Pires 0.63
    Fowler 0.60
    Beckham 0.58
    Di Canio 0.58
    Zola 0.56
    Flo 0.54
    Poyet 0.53
    Giggs 0.52
    Overmars 0.52
    Kevin Phillips 0.50
    Milosevic 0.48
    Berkovic 0.48
    Ravanelli 0.46
    Kanu 0.45
    Juninho 0.42
    Solano 0.42
    Carbone 0.40
    Scholes 0.40
    Patrik Berger 0.40
    Djorkaeff 0.39
    McManaman 0.39
    Ljungberg 0.39
    Heskey 0.38
    Darren Anderton 0.36
    Barmby 0.36
    Kevin Davies 0.36
    Petit 0.29
    Di Matteo 0.26
    Vieira 0.23

    Others:

    Solskjaer 0.83 (13900 minutes)
    Wiltord 0.62
    Suker 0.63
    Weah 0.53
    Poborsky 0.43
    Zenden 0.28
    Veron 0.25
    Okocha 0.19


    Feel free to add.

    For 1990 - 2000 I thought those might be valuable additions in some manner:

    Collymore 0.65
    Bryan Roy 0.56 (if moved to the 'others' section)
    Ruel Fox 0.38
    Lee Sharpe 0.32


    I am somewhat surprised by how low Okocha scores. He is from 1973 so he wasn't that old in theory.
    Hasselbaink is in many ways an odd case. He was active in the league until the age of 35, and a certain starter until 33 (started 36 games).
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I remember you was fond of him, but among defenders Dan Petrescu is perhaps the top one at 0.32. He played almost 16000 minutes and was between the age of 26 and 33 in the league (starter until 33).

    It is at least rare that he has goals, he has assists and with few penalties (or no penalties, in his case). Many of the other candidates have either almost no goals (Bjornebye), too many penalties (Harte of Ireland) or not too many assists (Sergio Ramos in the Spanish league, or John Terry).

    https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/goal_assist?se=79
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @comme @poetgooner

    Scholes was in 2008 inducted to the England Football Hall of Fame too. The only other active players where that had happened were Keane and Shearer in 2004, Giggs in 2005. (Wikipedia says erroneously Beckham in 2002). Beckham, Henry etcetera only got in after they had left the league for a while.

    Not saying it should be taken very serious but gives an idea about hype.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Football_Hall_of_Fame
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, good call and not surprising to me. To be fair he played as wing-back as well as 'normal' right-back, and also on the right of midfield, but that rate is not even bad for a midfielder (not that far behind Ljungberg who scored a lot more goals).

    Phillipe Albert might have a decent ratio for this?
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It is interesting that his iconic teammates, Keane, Cantona, Giggs, and Schmeichel, all made it on the list before he did. It's such a small thing anyway. We probably shouldn't draw any idea from it lol.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Philippe Albert is at 0.15. That is indeed not bad. John Terry is with his 41 goals, more than any other defender, and 12 assists at 0.11. Ian Harte is at 0.25 (again, minus the penalties).


    Here is my draft version for 2000 - 2010

    Show Spoiler

    2000 – 2010

    Thierry Henry 0.95
    Drogba 0.79
    Van Nistelrooij 0.70
    Viduka 0.57
    Robbie Keane 0.54
    Anelka 0.53
    Defoe 0.50
    Kanoute 0.50
    Beattie 0.46
    Bellamy 0.45
    Carlton Cole 0.43
    Lampard 0.43
    McBride 0.42
    Gerrard 0.39
    Heskey 0.38
    Kewell 0.38
    Yakubu 0.37
    Kevin Davies 0.36
    Duff 0.34
    Joe Cole 0.32
    Malbranque 0.31
    Boa Morte 0.30
    Ballack 0.29
    Dyer 0.27
    Kevin Nolan 0.27
    Murphy 0.26
    Terry 0.11

    Others:

    Reyes 0.74 (4400 minutes)
    Gudjohnsen 0.59
    Shevchenko 0.53
    Forssell 0.51
    Smicer 0.48
    Carew 0.48
    Barros 0.43
    Martins 0.43
    Morientes 0.41
    Camara 0.40
    Cissé 0.40
    McCarthy 0.38
    Petrov 0.38
    Emre 0.27
    Diouf 0.25


    Again, ideas would be appreciated.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Shevchenko's final ratio on this basis isn't as low as might be assumed probably (even if the hope/expectation would have been for a ratio closer to Henry's).

    One random leftfield name that comes to mind is Claus Jensen to see how he compares to other CM/AMs in this respect. Marcus Stewart and Michael Bridges probably have good to very good ratios due to a purple patch in scoring (maybe a decent number of assists in at least one case too but not sure) and not a long PL career. Marian Pahars could be another name to consider.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    If you let it end at 2007-08 when he was 33-34 years old and made for the last time more than 20 league starts he is at 0.53 non-penalty goals plus assists per 90 minutes, instead of 0.52. This was also the last season he made 28 or more appearances.

    Here by the way some good posts on him (starting on the top and the ones lower).
    http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/v...sid=88c5c06a0f85401978560ff6838998c4&start=69

    Then I'm not meaning all those (often senseless) numbers but the observations and descriptions made.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, for me 93/94 as prime seems correct on balance.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks for this. Stewart and Bridges have maybe too few minutes (4000 - 5000 minutes) but thanks for the idea. I did forget Saha I saw. He is on 0.47.

    This is my draft list for 2005 - 2015. Again, ideas or suggestions are appreciated.

    Show Spoiler

    2005 – 2015

    Van Persie 0.82
    Rooney 0.70
    Torres 0.69
    Tevez 0.66
    Berbatov 0.64
    Adebayor 0.62
    Fabregas 0.56
    Crouch 0.53
    Malouda 0.51
    Bent 0.47
    Nasri 0.42
    Dempsey 0.40
    Kuijt 0.40
    Cahill 0.39
    Pienaar 0.28
    Arteta 0.26
    Xabi Alonso 0.24
    Modric 0.23
    Carrick 0.15


    Others:

    Cristiano Ronaldo 0.66
    Van der Vaart 0.66
    Robben 0.64
    Nani 0.64
    Arshavin 0.60
    Kalou 0.60
    Robinho 0.59
    Santa Cruz 0.50
    Odemwingie 0.48
    Zamora 0.43
    Elano 0.42
    Benayoun 0.41
    Park Ji Sung 0.38
    Hleb 0.24
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    To this list can be added:

    Lennon 0.32
    Downing 0.26
    Gareth Barry 0.17

    2010 - 2020
    Show Spoiler

    2010 – 2020

    Aguero 0.90
    Sturridge 0.78
    Kane 0.76
    Alexis Sanchez 0.76
    Giroud 0.75
    Lukaku 0.70
    Walcott 0.62
    Ozil 0.57
    Eriksen 0.56
    Coutinho 0.55
    David Silva 0.54
    Mata 0.54
    Hazard 0.52
    Benteke 0.51
    Mirallas 0.51
    Carroll 0.50
    Sigurdsson 0.47
    Lallana 0.44
    Raheem Sterling 0.43
    Cazorla 0.43
    Welbeck 0.42
    Ramsey 0.41
    Yaya Toure 0.40
    Milner 0.31
    Fellaini 0.25



    Others:

    Luis Suarez 0.87
    Javier Hernandez 0.82
    Diego Costa 0.80
    Dzeko 0.77
    De Bruyne 0.72
    Dele Alli 0.69
    Mané 0.63
    Vardy 0.62
    Bendtner 0.61
    Bony 0.57
    Ayew 0.49
    Bale 0.47
    Mahrez 0.42
    Oscar 0.39


    @PDG1978

    Any more ideas for this? Noticeable is a slight increase in ratios, also among British players.
     
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