It was a general comment after he was established in the England team. Along the lines that West Ham supporters wished he was as consistently good for them as he was for England. In those days England matches were more important than club football so it did not affect his reputation all that much.
It's interesting as Greaves puts Moore extremely high up (compared to Charlton for example) here in his top 50 British great footballers list he chose, though he said it was really a hard/impossible task as much as he enjoyed it: http://bobbyfc.com/?p=2382 But he definitely has said he thought the team of 1961 was better than the team of 1966 I recall (also could be a minority view I guess?). I suppose the Flowers comments could have been a real-time view, and as much as he says "as long as he wasn't marking you" in Moore's write-up in that link, he might've been referring to finding Flowers more difficult to face personally (like a more modern player might find Keown more difficult than Ferdinand as a man marker maybe?).
Notable comment in the Adams write-up about England's Euro 96 team being the best England team Greaves had seen though (not even sure I noticed that before) - presumably that includes the ones he played in, if perhaps not late 1940s ones....
Was that also recorded somewhere? Maybe it is easy to think when your club finishes no higher than 6th. In the Charles Buchan Football Monthly fan/readers poll he was (all positions): 1960-61: not listed 1961-62: not listed 1962-63: 5th 1963-64: 1st 1964-65: 2nd 1965-66: not listed 1966-67: not listed 1967-68: not listed 1968-69: 3rd
His view (that I did read about somewhere I'm sure) that the 1961 team was better than the 1966 one seems a bit opposed by his own choices really in that list of 50, but I suppose 'greater' and 'better' are not always equivalent, the quality of a team isn't only about the quality/greatness of players, and he may have felt he excelled himself much more in 1961 or even discounted himself from the 1966 team, while understandably not selecting himself in that top 50 (though there is a hint that the press saw him and Law as quite comparable perhaps, and modesty aside I guess he'd think he'd be at least in that sort of territory in the list theoretically). The number of inclusions relating to the 1966 and 1996 England teams are fairly similar though, and I could see how the 1996 team would be seen as having a higher performance ceiling (shown in the Netherlands game for example...if the only true example to that extent) and more fluency as a team, as well as perhaps more overall leadership qualities among the group (quite a few people say that about that team when comparing to 1998's younger batch for example I've noticed).
Here is one reference, including evidence from West Ham manager Ron Greenwood. It is Point 3. https://blog.oup.com/2013/02/five-facts-about-bobby-moore/
Thank you. I now remember that OUP link yes. The years mentioned there match with my memory above. I did wonder whether the picture was a bit more nuanced than this on the basis of: 1) ever since 1963 Greenwood blocked many times a sale of Moore, with the FA rules and eligibility for England as leverage. Also when Moore was undoubtedly after his prime, in 1972, he blocked a sale. 2) despite these frequent blocks, Moore was for a while the highest paid player in England. If not, then one of the three highest. I know where to look up in which years he was, but don't have this source here (if I am back I can look this up easily). 3) Greenwood himself was regularly doubted with respect to motivating players and prefering style over substance, if I am not mistaken. Deflecting criticism to players like 'old Wenger' is easy to do. edit: quick glance on the esteemed Spartacus website seems to confirm this
I might start a spreadsheet and have a go at a personal effort or 'vote' abiding by Peterhrt's numbers, with slight adjustments (could also be taken as my 'vote' for that - still wanting to keep the theme of representing the whole footballing world and all of football history, but leaning slightly towards nations I might feel have a big pool compared to allocation). I guess it won't completely be at odds with my regular 100 but as already indicated I'd be making the attempt to think about impact in own era and in football history, and anyway the numbers dictate it'll be pretty different overall. So I was thinking (and of course it's only my idea and nobody else might agree even!) perhaps adding a player for the 100 and also second 100 for these: - France (to take them equal with Spain) - Netherlands - British Isles And then perhaps removing one from the top 100 from these: - Germany or Italy (I feel factoring in the early eras Argentina can keep 10 no problem, wheras Germany has slightly less of a history and maybe Italy starts to reach the 'very good but still in the normal range' type of player before we'd get to 20 names too) - Rest of Western Europe, or all of Eastern Europe - Rest of South America or Uruguay And perhaps instead of removing a player from the same option for the second 100, using the other one instead so as to only reduce those allocations by 1 each over 200 names. Then I wondered about extending the first era to 1924 (taking in the point until Uruguay started to emerge in a big way with the Olympics etc, and also meaning 1925-1949 would be like 19 years plus approximately the 'interrupted' WW2 period although some selected names will be players that have shined during that time still) but nudging down the allocation to 2 per each 100 and maybe using Friedenreich and Morton for example to mean 2 British players from pre 1914 (1 in the primary 100) and 3 pre 1925 (1 or 2 in the primary 100, depending if Friedenreich goes in it).
Sorry, 6 for France would put them at 1 more than Spain of course (don't know why I temporarily had it in mind Spain had been allocated 6 when I knew previously it was 5 and even discussed it as such!). I'll make sure I don't go below 16 defenders (including Breitner for example) and 8 GKs, to keep my effort nearer to Peter's guide than to what FFT had.
Ok, I've come up with 100 names fitting that template now. The highest placed omissions from my other list were Neeskens and Savicevic, but it seems like they're more in line for a second 100 so far anyway and especially factoring in longevity, while I don't vote against either for the 100 exactly, I could justify aligning my own ideas with putting them in a second 100 and that also makes it easier to make this 100 fit the criteria I think. I had a quick look at the list of definites comme had compiled, but hadn't checked again all the discussion or Peter's original posts so don't know exactly how set in stone they all were - however to fit the criteria and perhaps my own ideas too I have ended up moving Monti and Sivori to a second 100 also, to make room for Fillol and Kempes. I also counted Hugo Sanchez as a 'Rest of the World' option and he'll be in the second 100 instead too. And I moved Xavi to 2009-, and will do the same for Sneijder and even Pirlo I think for the second 100. So yeah, here it is and I think it's an ok representation of football history to date, in terms of notable players who made a mark on their era (and yes for the first 100 I'm leaning towards a more prolonged mark I think....even if the introduction of Kempes and Fillol doesn't necessarily go along with that....but it seemed like some more late 70s representation was certainly welcome and I have taken out a couple from that era VI/FFT included I suppose and the mark they made was obviously substantial at what was then the highest stage of all): Brazil - Arthur Friedenreich, Zizinho, Nilton Santos, Didi, Garrincha, Pele, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Zico, Romario, Cafu, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Neymar Argentina - Raimundo Orsi, Jose Manuel Moreno, Antonio Sastre, Adolfo Pedernera, Alfredo Di Stefano, Daniel Passarella, Mario Kempes, Ubaldo Fillol, Diego Maradona, Lionel Messi British Isles - G.O Smith, Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, John Charles, Bobby Charlton, Gordon Banks, Denis Law, Bobby Moore, George Best, Kenny Dalglish Eastern Europe - Gyorgy Sarosi, Ferenc Puskas, Gyula Grosics, Nandor Hidegkuti, Jozsef Bozsik, Sandor Kocsis, Lev Yashin, Dragan Dzajic, Pavel Nedved, Petr Cech Italy - Giussepe Meazza, Silvio Piola, Valentino Mazzola, Gianni Rivera, Giacinto Facchetti, Gaetano Scirea, Franco Baresi, Roberto Baggio, Paolo Maldini, Gianluigi Buffon Germany - Fritz Walter, Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Gunter Netzer, Paul Breitner, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Lothar Matthaus, Jurgen Klinsmann, Matthias Sammer Netherlands - Faas Wilkes, Johan Cruyff, Ruud Krol, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, Marco van Basten, Dennis Bergkamp, Arjen Robben France - Raymond Kopa, Michel Platini, Marcel Desailly, Laurent Blanc, Zinedine Zidane, Thierry Henry Rest of Western Europe - Matthias Sindelar, Nils Liedholm, Michael Laudrup, Peter Schmeichel, Eden Hazard Spain - Ricardo Zamora, Luis Suarez Miramontes, Francisco Gento, Xavi, Andres Iniesta Uruguay - Hector Scarone, Jose Leandro Andrade, Obdulio Varela, Juan Schiaffino, Jose Santamaria Rest of South America - Arsenio Erico, Elias Figueroa, Teofilo Cubillas, Alexis Sanchez Portugal - Eusebio, Luis Figo, Cristiano Ronaldo Rest of World - George Weah
1870-1914: 3 - G.O Smith (1) 1915-49: 23 - Arsenio Erico, Hector Scarone, Jose Leandro Andrade, Ricardo Zamora, Matthias Sindelar, Giussepe Meazza, Silvio Piola, Valentino Mazzola, Gyorgy Sarosi, Stanley Matthews, Raimundo Orsi, Jose Manuel Moreno, Antonio Sastre, Adolfo Pedernera, Arthur Friedenreich, Zizinho (16) 1950-69: 22 - Eusebio, Obdulio Varela, Juan Schiaffino, Jose Santamaria, Luis Suarez Miramontes, Francisco Gento, Nils Liedholm, Raymond Kopa, Faas Wilkes, Fritz Walter, Ferenc Puskas, Gyula Grosics, Nandor Hidegkuti, Jozsef Bozsik, Sandor Kocsis, Lev Yashin, Dragan Dzajic, Tom Finney, John Charles, Bobby Charlton, Gordon Banks, Denis Law, Bobby Moore, George Best, Alfredo Di Stefano, Nilton Santos, Didi, Garrincha, Pele (29) 1970-89: 22 - Elias Figueroa, Teofilo Cubillas, Michel Platini, Johan Cruyff, Ruud Krol, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, Marco van Basten, Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Gunter Netzer, Paul Breitner, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Gianni Rivera, Giacinto Facchetti, Gaetano Scirea, Franco Baresi, Kenny Dalglish, Daniel Passarella, Mario Kempes, Ubaldo Fillol, Diego Maradona, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Zico (25) 1990-2009: 22 - George Weah, Luis Figo, Michael Laudrup, Peter Schmeichel, Marcel Desailly, Laurent Blanc, Zinedine Zidane, Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Lothar Matthaus, Jurgen Klinsmann, Matthias Sammer, Roberto Baggio, Paolo Maldini, Gianluigi Buffon, Pavel Nedved, Petr Cech, Romario, Cafu, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho (21) 2010-17: 8 - Cristiano Ronaldo, Alexis Sanchez, Xavi, Andres Iniesta, Eden Hazard, Arjen Robben, Lionel Messi, Neymar (8)
Ok, I think there'd be quite a few different options to complete the jigsaw but I settled on this for a second 100: Brazil - Domingos Da Guia, Leonidas, Ademir, Gilmar, Zito, Djalma Santos, Gerson, Carlos Alberto, Tostao, Socrates, Paulo Roberto Falcao, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Kaka Argentina - Luis Monti, Angel Labruna, Omar Sivori, Omar Corbatta, Amadeo Carizzo, Silvio Marzolini, Osvaldo Ardiles, Fernando Redondo, Gabriel Batistuta, Javier Zanetti British Isles - John Goodall, Alan Morton, Tommy Lawton, Neil Franklin, Jimmy Greaves, Jimmy Johnstone, Pat Jennings, Peter Shilton, Gary Lineker, Ryan Giggs Germany - Helmut Rahn, Uwe Seeler, Wolfgang Overath, Berti Vogts, Pierre Littbarski, Thomas Hassler, Oliver Kahn, Bastien Schweinsteiger, Phillip Lahm, Manuel Neuer Eastern Europe (Bican could arguably be here instead of rest of western anyway too) - Oldrich Nejedly, Lazslo Kubala, Vladimir Beara, Bernard Vukas, Wlodzimierz Lubanski, Kazimierz Deyna, Dejan Savicevic, Gheorghe Hagi, Andriy Shevchenko Italy - Giovanni Ferrari, Sandro Mazzola, Luigi Riva, Dino Zoff, Paolo Rossi, Fabio Cannavaro, Francesco Totti, Alessandro Nesta, Andrea Pirlo Netherlands - Coen Moulijn, Wim van Hanegem, Rob Rensenbrink, Johan Neeskens, Ronald Koeman, Edwin van der Sar, Clarence Seedorf, Wesley Sneijder France - Just Fontaine, Jean Tigana, Manuel Amoros, Patrick Vieira, Franck Ribery, Antoine Griezmann Rest of Western Europe - Raymond Braine, Franz Binder, Josef Bican, Gunnar Gren, Gunnar Nordahl, Ernst Ocwirk Rest of South America - Leonel Sanchez, Hector Chumpitaz, Cesar Cueto, Carlos Valderamma, Ivan Zamorano Spain - Telmo Zarra, Amancio, Emilio Butragueno, Fernando Hierro, Raul Uruguay - Alcides Ghiggia, Victor Rodriguez Andrade, Enzo Francescoli, Luis Suarez Portugal - Fernando Peyroteo, Mario Coluna, Rui Costa Rest of World - Hugo Sanchez
Yeah, to be honest I still worked to the original numbers although had seen Peter had suggested that the names pencilled in made it seem more on target for as you have above (wasn't sure if he was changing it though, and I'd sort of assumed several players had been pencilled in for the period ending in 1949 as they were obvious choices). Most of those I had in mind for those periods (and I used your previous post to decide some for definite where I was unsure) although I placed Finney for period to 1949 and Rivera for period to 1969 for example (maybe only examples of differences even). As per the posts earlier today I worked to a slightly adjusted model (not to say it'll be adopted of course, but was adding my view on that as part of the vote as it's up for debate I think slightly) extending the first period to 1924 and then going 2-17-29-22-22-8.
Oh, I realise now I left Josef Masopust out of that 2nd 100 and probably wouldn't have intended to, so I guess I'd have to take out Vukas to put him in, if I didn't re-arrange goalkeeper selections or something.
Yes, I looked again and other than what I mentioned it was a case of putting Walter in period ending 1949, Facchetti in period ending 1969 and Baresi period ending 2009 (which seems far too late lol but based on prime perhaps starting in 1990 seems ok as with Matthaus and I think you initially slotted both in there and I took your lead - I suppose we didn't really discuss how players would be allocated to periods unless I missed it). Anyway, I guess it won't be a case of everyone literally voting for 100 names, although it might be interesting to see anyones attempt, but I thought probably this list would give my idea for this specific project of Peter's a bit better than my other list (even though I did adjust the periods very slightly and that might well not be followed...perhaps ditto for country allocation - I'm not really one to give a great idea for pre-1914 choices anyway surely but my selections there seemed ones I could be very much on board with and I don't know whether you, Peter, Tom, msioux and others see it like this but G.O Smith as first representative of footballs' great historical players seemed a decent call even if someone like Billy Meredith is now more famous as far as I can tell - maybe partly depends on clubs played for).
Actually, I don't really see any reason from any angle why I'd leave out Florian Albert from that second 100 either, and I see now I'd still have 8 goalkeepers again like with the first 100 (even though there is no sign that the final consensus-based list will have less than 9 as yet) if I took out Beara so that's probably the other change I'd be making. I still have a player from Yugoslavia in each 100.
Thanks for all this latest input. Nothing is set in stone yet of course, but given that we are looking at a period of nearly 150 years, the first half of that time should in my view include at least a quarter of the players. Similarly the first 44 years should include at least three representatives. Several posters on the forum have spent a lot of time identifying the best footballers of the nineteenth century and early twentieth and there is plenty of evidence of their quality. With the pre-1914 representation having to be British, it means that a third of the British players in the Top 100 will be from this time. That may not be ideal, but considering the British nations' record in international tournaments, it is perhaps not entirely unreasonable. Looking back again over the various threads and recent comments to take into account as many views as possible, a draft list meeting the original allocation by era and nationality appears below. There does not seem to be much to choose between many candidates, which makes the task a little easier. 1870-1914: 3 – GO Smith (1). Plus two from Kinnaird, Charlie Campbell, Cobbold, Nick Ross, Bloomer, Needham and Meredith. 1915-1949: 23 – Sastre, Moreno, Pedernera, Monti, Orsi, JL Andrade, Scarone, Obdulio Varela, Friedenreich, Zizinho, Erico, Fritz Walter, Valentino Mazzola, Meazza, Zamora, Sindelar, Matthews (17). Plus Piendibene or Nasazzi; Hughie Gallacher or Morton; Nordahl or Liedholm; one from Pesek, Planicka, Schlosser, Sarosi and Orth; two from Bican, Ocwirk and Braine. 1950-69: 22 – Di Stefano, Sivori, Schiaffino, Didi, Garrincha, Nilton Santos, Pele, Spencer, Eusebio, Facchetti, Rivera, Gento, Suarez, Kopa, Bozsic, Puskas, Yashin, Djajic, Best, Charlton, Moore (21). Plus one more from British Isles. 1970-89: 22 – Maradona. Passarella, Chumpitaz, Figueroa, Beckenbauer, Muller, Rummenigge, Cruyff, Gullit, Krol, Rijkaard, van Basten, Zico, Scirea, Zoff, Platini (16). Rivelino or Falcao; Carlos Alberto or Junior; van Hanegem or Rensenbrink; Blokhin or Boniek; Netzer or Overath; Breitner or Vogts. 1990-2009: 22 – Romario, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Kahn, Matthaus, Baggio, Baresi, Buffon, Maldini, Zidane, Xavi, Figo, Nedved, Schmeichel (14). Roberto Carlos or Cafu; Koeman or Bergkamp; Eto'o or Weah; Michael Laudrup or Ibrahimovic; two from Blanc, Desailly, Thuram and Henry; two from Hagi, Stoichkov, and Shevchenko. 2010-17: 8 – Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neuer, Dani Alves, Vidal (5). Plus Iniesta or Casillas; Lahm or Hummels; Lewandowski or Modric. Goalkeepers: 7-9 Defenders (including old centre-halves): 20+ Total: 100
For some another option would be Edgar Davids, based around his (perceived) 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000 form, and also the classic 2004 game against the Czech Republic (match compilation on youtube). There are not many Dutchmen, and Belgians too, who can say they were very good at two tournaments and then also 'good' at another one. In the public mind he's now however largely overshadowed by a couple of iconic moments and iconic goals (Cocu, Kluivert, Bergkamp). Seedorf is a big outlier in the sense that his club career was so much better than the national team career. He was never the main star for his club, but he was very good as deputy for other midfielders and as a tactical element. In the four men Milan midfield he was the most flexible of the lot and whose job could be alternated quite a bit, from a simple marking job (against Juventus in 2005) to other tasks. By the end of his career he also belonged among the seven/eight most frequent assisters in Champions League history, and I bet none of those arrived from a set piece. To some (minor) degree there's a correlation too between his arrival/departure and the success of the clubs he played for (backed up by ESM recognition in 2002-03 for example). He did have a tendency to be a victim of ones own perceived versatility. I think your list is a very good one.
Nice work again Peter, and yes I hadn't thought you'd be wanting to reduce the allocation of pre-1914 players really and completely understand that - I guess I half-wondered if producing a second selection of 100 would recognise them even with a reduced number per 100 but probably I just feel un-qualified to make my picks there and naming more from other times might have been more useful and informed. Maybe I stick by the opinion/idea in terms of adjusting players per country/region a bit, including upping the British slightly given that pre-1914 allocation but of course you and/or consensus will decide that too. I think Spencer just slipped my mind to be honest somehow, and therefore even if I didn't slot him in for the main 100 it could be likely I'd reduce my overall Sanchez contingent lol by removing Leonel from my second 100. I see you are using the adjusted numbers (including more for the period to 1949) too so sorry I didn't follow that, but the original template, but maybe it's not worth me re-doing anything especially as nobody else has copied the idea to fill in 100 names from their perspective as yet. Some of my clearer opinions (though just personal ideas of course) might be M.Laudrup (yes I can see the under/over rating balance dilemma maybe though) being in rather than Ibrahimovic, especially for a period ending in 2009 I think (I did wonder whether I might add him for the next period though but settled on Hazard with the Swedish presence from earlier), Alexis Sanchez over Vidal from Chile (not that I'm mega convinced on Sanchez for a 100, but I think now it can be ok, just like Hazard, even if both might or might not enhance their case in the coming seasons) and Sarosi being even more likely for one of 23 names in that period now, albeit Hungary have a lot of good options in general from the earlier part of football history and indeed I know Orth was particularly well regarded himself.....and Schlosser too with his ridiculous goal record and clearly being a big star of his era going for him.
Yes, Davids did make the World Soccer readers 100 of course, at the turn of the century, so probably is comparably forgotten now (British readers must've been picking him over emerging/emerged Vieira and Keane when including such a midfield player in their vote quite often it seems - he had starred in a World Cup and featured for a CL final contending team shortly before of course). Yes, I see what you are saying about Seedorf. Until recently I probably didn't fully understand and appreciate his impact at Real Madrid for example in 96/97 I think, but he was clearly a key player(even if in theory a secondary key if that makes sense lol; given Kaka's prominence in the starring role) at AC Milan and yes much more a club star than international team one. Thanks for the compliments - it's easy to go various ways probably when meeting the criteria so could be no two lists would be very very similar. Actually I saw Peter feels there may be room for both Hagi and Shevchenko (unless putting in Stoichkov) wheras I slotted them into a second 100, but yes, I think it depends on how many from each nation/region are chosen from each time period, although most of us should be fairly similar in our choices there to reflect partly the NT success too I suppose (and even club team success, which might go for British players where NT success doesn't at times...but as you said it's always best I think not to base everything on 'achievements' even if a list like this would understandably correlate with them reasonably well).
Yes I also tend to agree with your 2010-2017 inclusions and Alexis Sanchez is a good choice. Personally think he has maintained his form a bit better than Vidal for longer and attackers should have an advantage here (if other things are broadly equal). I rate his peak for the national team at a tournament higher. Imho Ibrahimovic can be in too because he is often mentioned in the media alongside Xavi, Iniesta and Robben as candidate for #3 behind LM10 and CR7 for that generation. VI held that view I saw. Peterhrt reduces the Dutch players to five (I don't like this) and Belgium to zero (although I understand it is about player quality and not team success perse - hence some crawl ahead of Belgium - but as I said my main problem has always been how the detractors of NL players are the same guys who question there was something 'extra' to this - this doesn't add up given tournament results).
Dutch are still on seven: Cruyff, Gullit, Krol, Rijkaard, van Basten. Plus van Hanegem or Rensenbrink. And Koeman or Bergkamp. For 1915-49 it is two from Bican, Ocwirk and the Belgian Braine. Personally I would pick Braine as he not only gives a Belgian representative but was also a big name in Czech football in the 1930s.
I'd certainly not want to target players for exclusion myself, and prefer to concentrate on the positives and not seem like I would 'trash' anyones reputation or something, but while actually in this format I could not only accept but go along with Savicevic out and Alexis Sanchez in, I think I have more issue with Neeskens out and Vidal in somehow (even though it comes perhaps largely from the format which is generally good to get a good spread over eras and nations). Anyway, I thought it was ok to raise it for discussion, but it's not that now I suddenly think Neeskens is a must, but just I see him as a higher class of player in that direct comparison, and as far as I'm aware not regarded less so in his own era at the least. It can be I just never saw Vidal close to his best or something over 90 minutes, or have some block on appreciating him where others don't. But I suppose I didn't see any more of Neeskens, but could appreciate him as a quality player as well as all-action type from what I did see. Positionally it can be a comparison but of course the slot Vidal takes cannot be challenged for by Neeskens (but maybe it adds a reason to question his definite placing, and for me to prefer the Sanchez selection).
I followed your lead in leaving out Hugo Sanchez. He seems to represent Real Madrid more than Latin America and the club has plenty of representatives already. Same to a lesser extent with Santamaria. To be honest I hadn't considered Vidal but then msioux suggested him and I noticed he was very high in comme's club season ratings. He also balanced the allocations. There may be more deserving candidates. I am also a fan of Neeskens, and have seen him live, but went with Puck's assessment that other Dutchmen rank higher. Hungary is a bit of a dilemna. At the moment two of the ten Eastern Europeans are Hungarian with the option of a third. You had six, with another in your second hundred. Comme also included six in his Top 100 a few years ago, all from the 1950s. There are several good candidates from this time and before. But should the overall allocation also reflect the nation's lack of success during the past half century? It would be good to get the views of a Hungarian poster such as @elegos7 . And also some input of other posters based in Eastern Europe.
Just going back to the British Isles issue, I suppose they don't compete as one nation and while I think it'd be speculative to say add Giggs in 98 or Dalglish in 82 (though he didn't really shine in that WC despite very much doing so in the following season) and England go far and perhaps add to their tally of trophies or at least finals (in other words I'm far from sure that'd happen and ditto if all the Scots/Welsh/Irish were eligible for a combined team), it is true that 'British Isles' could never compete, and when factoring in justified spread by nationality and looking post 1914 the number of England players might even seem low compared to 'achievements' in terms of NT results although I didn't think about that in depth yet.