Best football players of all time

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by stcv1974, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I know what you might think, this has been done a million times, but now I would like to ask all of you to submit top 50 (or top 30 at least) greatest players ever based on 50% prime ability and 50% consistency, so just on players pure footballing ability, without taking to account trophies or even that some player may have failed in one tournament where they were expected to be outstanding. And also not to take anything away from players like George Best or George Weah you just didn't have a chance to make a significant national career.

    I would also like to talk about best players in specific aspects of game like scoring, creating, dribbling and defending.
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Good luck with it mate - I can tell you are keenly interested in the topic(s).

    I think this can fully replace my old thread (except if people want to post videos etc on that as had become common) if you like.

    If you plan to keep tallies of votes like I did, I can say that I manually calculated the scores but if you have a spreadsheet handy that might make it easier in hindsight.

    Those extra categories will be interesting to include whether you take votes on them (10-20 choices each maybe?) or just discuss them (there are some older threads around discussing them individually, but good idea to include them in this thread).

    I'm not quite sure if my latest vote (approximate, of course; and individual like everyone's should be free to be based on their experiences, ideas etc) which I think you found ok before is exactly what you want (it is basically on pure, overall footballing ability or at least to the extent the players were able to show it on the pitch and I did take some account of consistency/regularity as much as I felt able I suppose....but if the 50% consistency aspect goes beyond what I'd considered automatically, and even into longevity and number of great seasons etc then I suppose you'd need me to adjust my list a bit for you after a rethink - if not feel free to take my previous top 30 or 50 though).

    Just to put the idea out there as it was suggested on my thread (but might be too complicated) - I suppose you could allow voters to vote for a number of tiers (say 10) of between 1 and 10 players (or between 1 and 5 in the top five tiers and between 1 and 20 in the next five). So that it's more tailored to allowing some ties but also separating players out where the voter decides. Maybe too complicated indeed or not what you want though?
     
  3. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    As I said, I would like it to be close to 50-50, so if you think that you should make some changes to your list because of longevity/consistency please do so. If someone wants to give their list of top 10 dribblers, creators... that is very appreciated. I would like lists more then tiers, but I'm not sure if i fully understood you since English is not my mother tongue.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok mate - yeah tiers was just a 'different' idea that came up on my thread at one stage but if it's lists you want then lists it should be!

    Yeah, ok - I might be a while having a think then but I'll add a vote for you (hopefully a few others come in soon for you - maybe others will even have to adjust their ideas from the opposite end - taking away consideration of trophies etc like you say and reducing the longevity aspect - good idea really to have everyone voting to the same criteria but I'm sure there will still be plenty of variance and many players named).

    Do you want to make a rough estimate of how much of the consistency part you want to be longevity (percentage wise eg - 20% of the 50% i.e 10% overall, or 60% of the 50% i.e 30% overall)? The more it is the more I'd have to change my vote I guess generally speaking.

    Your English is great I think.

    Top 10 creators is an interesting one. Top 10 passers is often discussed on here, Xtratime etc I think but top 10 creators is a more broad category including all sorts of passes, imagination, inspiration, perhaps to some extent physical enabling qualities like pace that help to open up a defence while dribbling...and I should think consistency again. I'll have a think about that and other categories too then for you...but I'm not really sure when I'll be back with any votes or posts. Like I say, I'm sure others will jump straight in pretty soon when they see the thread.
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually mate - I think maybe my best policy is to sort each tier (though I didn't count tiers in my thread and you are not either) of my previous list by longevity of peak(ish) i.e when I have the players about equal otherwise on my perception of their pure class at their best and consistency and adaptability then I will use longevity/amount of great years and/or years they were great within as the decider....



    So that can make my vote as follows I suppose for your purposes:

    1 - Pele (Brazil)
    2 - Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
    3 - Diego Maradona (Argentina)
    4 - Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina)
    5 - Michel Platini (France)
    6 - George Best (Northern Ireland)
    7 - Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
    8 - Eusebio (Portugal)
    9 - Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
    10 - Zinedine Zidane (France)
    11 - Bobby Charlton (England)
    12 - Ferenc Puskas (Hungary)
    13 - Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    14 - Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
    15 - Zico (Brazil)
    16 - Ronaldo (Brazil)
    17 - Lev Yashin (Soviet Union)
    18 - Gerd Muller (Germany)
    19 - Bobby Moore (England)
    20 - Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
    21 - Luis Figo (Portugal)
    22 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
    23 - Garrincha (Brazil)
    24 - Ronaldinho (Brazil)
    25 - Franco Baresi (Italy)
    26 - Tom Finney (England)
    27 - Roberto Baggio (Italy)
    28 - Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
    29 - Ruud Gulit (Netherlands)
    30 - Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia)
    31 - Lothar Matthaus (Germany)
    32 - Thierry Henry (France)
    33 - Stanley Matthews (England)
    34 - Paolo Maldini (Italy)
    35 - Giussepe Meazza (Italy)
    36 - Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
    37 - Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)
    38 - Peter Schmeichel (Denmark)
    39 - Gianni Rivera (Italy)
    40 - Johan Neeskens (Netherlands)
    41 - Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
    42 - Jurgen Klinsmann (Germany)
    43 - Francesco Totti (Italy)
    44 - Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)
    45 - Jairzinho (Brazil)
    46 - Andriy Shevchenko (Ukraine)
    47 - George Weah (Liberia)
    48 - Eric Cantona (France)
    49 - Kaka (Brazil)
    50 - Duncan Edwards (England)
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I think You overrated George Best and Van Basten ... in TOP10
    but that's your choice :p
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No problem. Are you gonna vote mate (it can be different to my thread as specific criteria of 50% peak talent/performance and 50% consistency including longevity)? Plus you only included retired players on my thread IIRC?
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    But in truth I still didn't use longevity as a big factor, or number of peak years (MVB was unlucky to have his cut short anyway) but just as a tiebreaker.
     
  9. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    All right, i have to be clear about some things. I meant 50% prime ability(basically best season, but with a greater consideration of complete skill than just goals) and 50% longevity, number of best seasons with some consideration of consistency. So PDG do you want me to include your vote that you posted or would you like to change it?

    And when i say creating i mean vision+passing.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll have a think mate - thanks - maybe more longevity consideration that I thought and more consistency within prime ability (on my thread I considered prime capability more than form over a season tbh btw).

    And yeah, vision and passing clears up how to judge creativity - thanks. Almost like a best passers list then I suppose, but with more on the vision aspect than if people mainly concentrated on the technical quality of passing alone.
     
  11. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Yeah, i remember that you were explaining to people that you don't consider prime and best seasons to be the same thing, but when i say prime i mean best season most of the time, but i understand what you mean by it.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I think I gave the example of Van Basten in 1988 and Ronaldo in 1997 and said that Ronaldo had the better year (I was using year not season that time) because Van Basten had been injured in the early part of it and because he'd scored more goals. But my consideration might be more like taking Van Basten on his best days in Euro 88 or Serie and comparing his overall gameplay to Ronaldo when he showed his best capabilities for Barca, Brazil or Inter. Also considering a bit though how often they would play near their best, how often they could have an impact on the game and how adaptable they could be to different games and to NT and club games etc.

    So, I might stick with my idea for 'best form' and that 50% of it unless you object to that. For the longevity part cconsidering number of great seasons (because longevity can also be extended by being a great player at a young age, not only by playing to a late age at a high level - I was thinking of number of seasons close to prime form basically so thought Matthaus for example, though he played at a high level at a late age, was probably only close to his best or among the top players in the world for a few seasons even if he might have been under the radar a bit before he played for Inter) I might need to give that a little more weight though so what I might do is take out Duncan Edwards (obviously his inclusion was somewhat based on testimony and understanding that he was very complete and versatile anyway, but though he was great at a young age he surely was unlucky in terms of longevity as his life was cut short) and put in Romario. Then I might sort my 50 players by the longevity/consistency aspect and then combine my 'best form' list with my 'longevity' list so in my case I'm probably going to even be slightly further away from my vote on my thread (but not completely different of course). Romario's number of great seasons, on form close to his prime, might be hard to estimate actually for me anyway but surely he does have a few.
     
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  13. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Sure, you can use peak form, no problem, and what you say about longevity is exactly what i thought, number of prime and close to prime seasons.
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Meanwhile my attempt/idea for passing and vision, or creating:

    1 - Michel Platini (France)
    2 - Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
    3 - Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
    4 - Didi (Brazil)
    5 - Gianni Rivera (Italy)
    6 - Glenn Hoddle (England)
    7 - Gerson (Brazil)
    8 - Zico (Brazil)
    9 - Fracesco Totti (Italy)
    10 - Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)

    Cruyff, know as Pythagaros in Boots became a playmaker forward capable of using angles to perfection. He was great at weighting and timing passes to make the best of his team-mates runs. He could use the outside of his right boot with great precision, as well as both his left and right insteps. He could make many assists from midfield, around the box and from the wings. His brain was very sharp.

    Michael Laudrup was famous for his ideas and the accuracy of his passes, especially at Barcelona. He was said to have eyes in the back of his head, and players knew that if they made a run he would find them. He had a variety of ways to provide assists and progress the play - flipping the ball over defenders, first time passes, backheels, slide rule passes using both feet, lofted passes onto a team-mates boot etc etc.

    But Michel Platini's passing ability was tremendous from all distances. He could play laser guided 60 yard balls many times, but also had the finesse and variation to make chances over shorter distances. He could pass with great accuracy using various techniques. He also had a great combination of instinctive creativity and awareness, combined with ability to improvise.
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    btw, you might have seen I showed a new poster the way to this thread when he asked if mine was still open. So there is a link from mine to yours now.
     
  16. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Great list, i agree about top 4, and the others are also great choices, certainly most of them belong to top 10 but I would definitely put Maradona in top 5 at least.
     
  17. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    My list of top 10 dribblers:
    1. Messi
    2. Maradona
    3. Garrincha
    4. Best
    5. Ronaldo Fenomeno
    6. Cruyff
    7. Omar Sivori
    8. Pele
    9. Laudrup
    10. Baggio
    I compared Messi's dribbling with Maradona's, and I calculated Messi's dribble success in world cups and champions league and 59.4% success and compared it to maradona's in world cups which is 55.9% and that's why I put messi at #1 and maradona #2. The rest is my opinion.
    http://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/History/Lionel-Messi

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-better-than-maradona-but-maybe-not-pele/

    Whoscored.com now shows in Messi's stats only stats from champions league group stage for past seasons from unknown reasons but when i was calculating it it was showing group and knock-out stage too.
     
  18. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Great, thanks for doing that. ;)
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Why not applying dribble success percentage to all players? :confused:

    Sivori shouldn't be in top 10.
     
  20. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I couldn't find it.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think I had 8 of those down in my top 10 too. Baggio, I know could go on great runs either from halfway or starting near the box but generally he wasn't quite as good at dribbling past many players so I might re-allocate his place personally. Sivori is hard to judge, as is Faas Wilkes but from some footage plus descriptions of him I thought it might be the Dutchman who I'd put in there. Not sure who I'd put in Baggio's place - many options - I had put in the younger Laudrup brother too but not everyone agreed with that when it was discussed before.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I didn't use any stats btw, but I tended from eye witness effect to put Best at number 1, and possibly Cruyff a bit higher than you have him down for. Hard to call it though really but I think we have a very similar idea and most people would see the reasons for most of these choices in this topic.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll put my adjusted vote in this thread fairly soon now, after grouping players by longevity/consistency and then combining those groupings with my groupings from the list on my thread.
     
  24. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    OK, I'm looking forward to it.
     
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok here you are mate - this can fully replace the list I put up earlier for you:


    (50% prime form (considering consistency/adaptability too) and 50% longevity (years at or near peak and consistency within them))

    1 - Pele (Brazil)
    2 - Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
    3 - Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina)
    4 - Diego Maradona (Argentina)
    5 - Franz Beckenbauer (Germany)
    6 - Michel Platini (France)
    7 - Ferenc Puskas (Hungary)
    8 - Eusebio (Portugal)
    9 - Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
    10 - Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    11 - George Best (N.Ireland)
    12 - Zinedine Zidane (France)
    13 - Bobby Charlton (England)
    14 - Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
    15 - Lev Yashin (USSR)
    16 - Zico (Brazil)
    17 - Gerd Muller (Germany)
    18 - Ronaldo (Brazil)
    19 - Bobby Moore (England)
    20 - Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
    21 - Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
    22 - Roberto Baggio (Italy)
    23 - Tom Finney (England)
    24 - Franco Baresi (Italy)
    25 - Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
    26 - Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)
    27 - Stanley Matthews (England)
    28 - Paolo Maldini (Italy)
    29 - Luis Figo (Portugal)
    30 - Garrincha (Brazil)
    31 - Ronaldinho (Brazil)
    32 - Dejan Savicevic (Yugoslavia)
    33 - Peter Schmeichel (Denmark)
    34 - Giussepe Meazza (Italy)
    35 - Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
    36 - Johan Neeskens (Netherlands)
    37 - Dragan Dzajic (Yugoslavia)
    38 - Gianni Rivera (Italy)
    39 - Lothar Matthaus (Germany)
    40 - Thierry Henry (France)
    41 - Jurgen Klinsmann (Germany)
    42 - Andriy Shevchenko (Ukraine)
    43 - Gheorghe Hagi (Romania)
    44 - Francesco Totti (Italy)
    45 - Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands)
    46 - Romario (Brazil)
    47 - George Weah (Liberia)
    48 - Jairzinho (Brazil)
    49 - Kaka (Brazil)
    50 - Eric Cantona (France)
     
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