Most of your post is hindsight spinning but to suggest that a under 19 yo Jozy who scored 15 goals in 37 MLS matches before he was purchased for a then record $10MM was not consistent is bizarre.
Not really, bro. Jozy started 3 games in '06, 15 in '07, and 7 in '08. If you think that's being a consistent pro then whatever.
Yanks Abroad playing consistent minutes in European leagues better than MLS: 01. Weston McKennie --starter for #14 club in Bundesliga. ** 02. Alfredo Morales --starter for #12 club in Bundesliga 03. DeAndre Yedlin --starter for #16 club in Premiership * 04. Tim Ream --starter for #19 club in Premiership 05. Tyler Adams --starter for #4 club in Bundesliga (only 3 games so far) ** 06. Ethan Horvath --starter for #2 club in Jupiler * 07. Andrija Novakovich --starter for #11 club in Eredivisie 08. Emmanuel Sabbi --starter for #14 (last) club in Superligaen Yanks Abroad who may start to play consistent minutes soon: 09. Fabian Johnson --rotational for #3 club in Bundesliga, usually injured * 10. Erik Palmer-Brown --first start in a long time for #18 (last) club in Eredivisie Yanks Abroad who used to start but lost position: 11. Christian Pulisic *** 12. Timothy Weah * (benched after Jim Forrest's return) 13. Bobby Wood 14. Kenny Saief Yanks Abroad who may play significant minutes soon: 15. Joshua Sargent * 16. Timothy Chandler 17. Jonathan Amon *** = tried and true ** = possibly a top NT player * = possibly a decent NT player
Add Zack Steffen and probably Chris Cappis. You could also add these groups: Teenage Yanks Abroad who could conceivably get their debut within the next 12 months: 18. Alex Mendez 19. Uly Llanez 20. Sergino Dest 21. Sebastian Soto 22. Gio Reyna 23. Chris Gloster 24. Chris Richards Teenage Yanks in MLS who have gotten minutes and show promise: 25. Mark McKenzie 26. Reggie Cannon 27. Chris Durkin 28. Djordje Mihailovic Teenage Yanks in MLS who appear in line to get decent minutes this season: 29. Andrew Carleton 30. Gianluca Busio 31. Jaylin Lindsey 32. Brandon Servania 33. Paxton Pomykal 34. James Sands 35. Justin Rennicks 36. Joe Scally 37. Jesus Ferreira 38. Cole Bassett U17s who should be playing a bunch in USL this season: 39. Gilbert Fuentes 40. Justin Haak 41. George Bello 42. Alfonso Ocampo-Chavez 43. Josh Atencio 44. Danny Robles 45. Tayvon Gray 46. Ricardo Pepi Other teenage Yanks at big clubs: 47. George Acosta 48. Indiana Vassilev 49. Mason Judge 50. Taylor Booth 51. Richie Ledezma 52. Joshua Pynadath 53. Konrad de la Fuente I am sure that I am leaving a bunch of significant names out... The point is to show the depth of the number of prospects we have developing in an environment that was either extremely rare or flat out impossible compared to the generations that came before them.
For some reason, the people who insist that the only way to make any headway is to have players in the UCL teams, are the same people who now insist that we are in some "new" territory when the fact is that we have two (2) players in the UCL. These are the same people who don't want to hear anything about Roldan or Delgado or Lima or such because, you know, we are only interested in UCL level players. Lots of people playing solitaire on these boards with a less than full deck.
Your ability fabricate situations is impressive. We arent necessarily in new territory as much as we are entering into a whole new set of circumstances in terms of talent and depth of our pool. It isnt as much about playing the CL as it is having the talent to do so. It doesnt look like CP will be playing in it next year but that doesnt instantly make him worse of a player. Same goes for Mckennie. As it stands right now, Adam's may be the only one playing there next season. The excitement is about what is coming. Yes, I am tired of hearing about average MLS players. Not qualifying for the world cup with a coach using them over better players contributed to that as did watching Will Crapp play more minutes than any player last year. I'd take Alex Mendez and Sergino Dest today over those average MLS players you keep hyping. The fed chose to waste a year, we shouldn't waste any more time on players that will never be good enough. I dont know what imaginary world you live in that makes you think that an MLS role player like Delgado is going to make an impact at the international level.
You have created an Excellent strawman here! I don't recall anyone saying that we are only interested in UCL players or that we have a plethora of them; many, including myself, believe that we should play our best players as much as possible. If after a couple of years of failed experimentation because the high-ceiling-but-still-improving pieces don't fit, then we can move to our low/moderate ceiling players as potential starters and change our tactics accordingly. What we are discussing is your strong preference for playing lower level players (particularly Trapp, Delgado and Roldan) over those who are both younger and have proven the ability to play at a significantly higher level. You don't want us to play our major league players and want to build around your MLS guys. In order to make this argument, you constantly slag the performance of these up-and-coming players both at their clubs (even though it's against opponents far better than those in MLS/B2/Championship) and then through a heavily filtered lens in USMNT games. Another thing no one is saying is that your favorites shouldn't be considered for the pool. That's another strawman of yours. TLDR. Your desire to have an all-MLS teams except in [un-]provable cases of superior performance by major league players is outrageous, although you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Some people just want to look at the situation right now and not give any thought to the future, long term or short term. We will probably have one player in the UCL next year and a handful in the Europa League. We are nowhere near getting 10+ in the UCL but that is what you need to compete at the World Cup. That is what England, Belgium, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, and France have. The empirical data says you need a roster of UCL players to win the WC. A roster full of domestic league players will not be enough. I do think it is a possibility we have 10+ in 2026. Not a certainty though, but the home team is usually competitive without needing a bunch in the UCL. I think this is the first time ever that we can project 10+ players in the UCL 8-10 years out. So, I guess playing without a full deck simply means looking at the actual empirical evidence and being optimistic about the future.
I can count nine players who are or may be international quality players in Europe. I forgot Brooks, who is also a starter and gets his star. Sargent right now showing the star awarded to him may have been premature. I'm not too sure about Horvath either. Otherwise, even among our guys in good leagues getting consistent minutes, we have a lot of subpar ones: Ream, Morales, Brooks on a bad day (when he's truly terrible), and Novakovich who's unable to score when facing a little pressure (in the Eredivisie, if you're a decent striker, you're expected to score fairly often, they leave a lot of space for that). We get quite a bit of "fake news" from people who purport following our Yanks Abroad in Europe too, who make it look in here as if they were doing much, much better than they really are doing over there.
I was only discussing those in leagues better than MLS. I see little point to include in a discussion of Best XI right now the guys playing in leagues weaker than the local one.
Just to be persnickety. I think that flash/moment of '01-'02 where we had a near perfect combo of legit vets, elite young potential stars, a bench loaded for bear with players in or just about to exit their primes who had played important minutes and been vital pieces in numerous Qualifiers and Tournaments is just a peerless generation even now. Just take a look at it. Old Men of quality: Stewart: Played a key role in '94, was also vital in '02. Agoos (granted a heartbreaking tournament for a guy who was the last cut in '94, and didn't see a minute in the '98 debacle) Legit Vets in their Prime: Friedel: Best USMNT Keeper ever? Keller: Played best game of any USMNT keeper ever until Tim's R16 in '14. Reyna: Snakebit in '98 and '06, made the all tournament team if memory serves. McBride: A forward many (definitely me) took for granted, but in retrospect, was just a fantastic, work hard, smart as hell player who finally got his moment in '02. Pope: Until Donovan, probably the best USMNT player ever. Young Potential Stars: Wolff Mathis I pair them together as I think pre-knee injuries in '01, both were on a potential Europe trajectory and stardom (Mathis) and quality (Wolff) futures laid ahead. Wolff was never the same, and Mathis fitness issues and mental makeup seemed to make the knee injury issue that much worse, but for a moment in time in '01, he was the greatest American attacking player ever (just watch his tour de force peformance in friendlies against Honduras and Germany in early '01, his goal of the decade that year, his wonderstrike on the road to crucially defeat Honduras in qualifying etc. For a moment in time, he was a star in waiting. It's very bittersweet to think of what might have been for attacking players like Mathis, and a decade earlier, Steve Snow. In terms of Wolff. I could be wrong, considering I only saw this Wolff for about 18 months, but the Wolff I saw from the Summer of 2000, through his injury in 2001, was a really special forward, a kind of Charlie Davies before Davies (though w/less physical strength), just tenacious, lightning quick, and superb at finding openings. Didn't seem quite the same player after the knee injury. Donovan Beasley O'Brien It goes without saying that Donovan along with Dempsey was the best USMNT player ever, Beasley was one of the best swiss army knife winger/fullbacks we've ever had even w/his liabilities, and O'Brien, for the 5 minutes he was healthy might have been the most gifted technical mid we've ever had. Legit Bench options: E. Lewis: Just really sound player, he pops up over and over with key plays . Berhalter: Scored the tying goal in the Quarterfinals (I'll never view that differently), according to a ref he had three arms, very solid and composed. Hejduk: Energizer Bunny, outstanding mentality and approach. Cobi: Singlehandedly gave Mexico an aneurysm in the R16 match. Great career, always seemed to make the right play down the stretch. Llamosa: amazing story, never seemed to put a foot wrong. Max-Moore: Like Lewis, I never liked to see him in the starting lineup, but scroll through his decade+ of contributions and you see big goal, after big goal. Regis: Didn't play a minute, but nobody can question his credentials (other than that Italy friendly). Sanneh: Never a fan, thought Sal Zizzo in '07 was the Tony Sanneh of that U-20 WC, a guy who had a moment and earned a transfer for it despite middling talent, but man oh man did Sanneh pick the perfect time to have his best 4 week stretch of his career. Mastro: Unsung hero D-Mid, would play bigger role in the future. I just look back at that roster and there's almost ZERO filler. The bench was loaded for bear with a wonderful combo of experienced legit goalies, Centerbacks and Fullbacks that probably would have started in any other WC of the past 25 years, attacking players that had scored bushels of goals in big moments over the years AND been glue guys, and then some DM talent that would become crucial in the future (what would we have done for a Mastro after Jones retired? One thing we would've done was qualify for the World Cup). I just look back at that '01-'02 era, and especially if you pic the players based upon their best moments in the cycle, you just get a team that is unmatched in USMNT History. Leadership: Check Glue Guys: Check Attacking Talent: Check Midfield Skill: Check Defensive Mettle: Check Excellent Supersubs: Check Age range ideal (a few overage vets, a lot of in prime studs, and a handful of pups with star potential): Check Coaching: Best coaching effort by a USMNT EVER 3 Superb game plans (Portugal, Mexico, Germany) One efficient game plan (S. Korea) 1 Dud (Poland-and a ref decision was as responsible as anything for the disaster-We had the equivalent of a TD/Pick 6 moment when Donovan's goal was waived off, and Poland scored while we were still yelling at the refs and WAY behind the play) I try to always remember the good, and not fixate on the bad (Frings, Hugh Dallas, the Poland Debacle, the bad luck that nearly cost us a win against Portugal, and the injuries that waylaid the careers of O'Brien, Mathis, and Wolff) when it comes to this tournament. So much that was great happened then, and even if we went down due to a horrific ref error, we did go down swinging, outplaying Germany, and leaving such a beautiful mark on the entire tournament with our performances against Portugal, S. Korea, Mexico and Germany. Nothing we've done since has come close to it other than: USA 3 Egypt+Hookers 0 USA 2 Spain 0 USA 2 Brazil 0 @ Halftime of Confed Cup '09. That 2.5 game stretch was spectacular, and technically better than we've ever played period, but we also had the horrific performances against Brazil in the group stage, Italy in the Group Stage, and the soul crushing 2nd half implosion against Brazil in the final. I still take the '02 side over that '09 side because the '02 side was just flat out significantly more talented and deeper top to bottom (easiest way to see it is to look at the bench of each side, and look at the 2nd banana type guys that came in and out of each First XI depending upon injuries and game plan. Once the kids were added to the side after the debacle in the Summer of '01 that team just transformed in the winter of '01-'02 into the best side in the history of Concacaf to my mind anyway.
It is an interesting comparison, maybe using the NFL Day 1 Prospect (1st round), Day 2 Prospect (2nd and 3rd round) or Day 3 Prospect (4th-7th round-basically decent chance to blind folded dart throw w/exceptions based on positions (QB's on Day 3 hit less than 5% of the time). Adu: Day 1 Prospect Feilhaber: Day 2 Prospect to 4th Rounder of Day 3 Bradley: Day 2 Prospect Edu: Day 2 Prospect Jozy: Day 1 Prospect Eddie Johnson (Day 1/Day 2 Prospect pre knee injury, had fallen a great deal by 2008, I think he was a much hotter prospect coming out of the 2003 U-20 WC, and his rookie year in MLS then he was a few years later the knee injury hurt his game, though I'll grant his play did earn him a solid transfer fee) Orozco: Day 3 Prospect to Undrafted Free Agent Davies: Day 2 Prospect in 2009, Day 3 Prospect circa '07-'08 Szetela: Day 1/Day 2 Prospect (really hot prospect at one time) Castillo: Day 3 Prospect o Undrafted Free Agent Just looking at the Big 5: Pulisic: Rookie of the Year in 2016-2017 after initially being a Day 1 Prospect McKennie: Day 1 Prospect Adams: Day 1/Day 2 Prospect Sargent: Day 1 Prospect Weah: Day 1 Prospect Just looking at the Big 5, to me anyway, all of these guys are sparkly shiny blue chippers in the way Adu was circa 2003-2007, Jozy wasn't quite at that level, but was fairly close, but the rest you list simply weren't at that level and just as importantly, what changes things is you've got your list, and we've got dozens more coming up, either teenagers, or guys from that '95-'96 type class who haven't fired, and may never fire, but are at least getting minutes. I think for many, especially amongst the Youth Teams Forum, what's so exciting is that not only are we seeing cream bubbling up, but we are seeing a ridiculous amount of depth coming through a third consecutive cycle for the '19 youth tournaments, and interesting kids also heading towards the '21 tournaments as well. I mean Gio Reyna just moved to Dortmund, what's going to happen with Carleton who still has that talent, guys like Nyeman, and Durkin out of DC, that nobody talks about much other than 97531, but who in the former case have a huge ceiling, and in the latter case, just look to me like as good as any defensive midfield prospects we've ever seen at his current age. There is just a mountain of prospects coming up, and after having the Big 5 arrive in Germany/France in a big way over the past 2+ years, what do we think European clubs are going to think regarding scouting our prospects after seeing Dortmund, Bremen, Schalke, and PSG amongst others sign up elite players at rock bottom prices compared to European wonderkids of similar talent level, and hell, in many cases, no transfer fee to even be paid because most MLS clubs have not really figured out how to handle our young prospects as yet. I don't know if this is a golden generation or just a sign of things to come. I fully expected this to happen with the '90-'95's as kids born in those years, possibly witnessing our '02 world cup, definitely being the first generation in decades to have a domestic league offering opportunites for a professional career grow as they grew up, and some maybe even witnessing WC '94 as preschoolers, I just thought w/'02, w/MLS, w/heck 2009-2010, we would see an explosion in prospect development, yet it didn't happen, until 1995's and beyond, who would have been elementary schoolers basically circa the '02-'10 cycles, so they probably were old enough to watch Donovan's Youtube Moment in '10, the Confed Cup heroics, and our run in '14 as they entered middle school age. My question right now isn't so much about whether this is any different from 2008, it definitely is, my question is whether this is a golden generation, or just the first salvo celebrating our arrival as a legit long term soccer nation, not World Cup Winning caliber, but certainly in the next tier given a bit of time. Is this a sign of things to come, or just a moment in time like that 1982-1984 generation that was the last to make a major youth tournament semifinal? The fact that we've seen 3 of our four youth teams advance to the quarterfinals in the '15/'17 cycles is definitely a good sign as that's something that has NEVER happened, and it took PK's to knock one of those teams out of reaching the Semifinals, the first time we came that close since we were gut punched by Argentina in the dying seconds of the '03 U-20 WC nursing a 1-0 lead and falling in extra time (which was a lock after that kick to the groin) 15 years ago.
I like the way you laid it out which is as they were viewed/rated at that point in time! I had Edu who was MLS rookie of the year rated higher than you and EJ at the time higher than I currently rate Weah and Sargent but just opinion. .
while i did overlook "better than mls"- which is fine, its your list- you think the spl and danish league are? or, more importantly, that theyre better than the colaship? my point was, and is, i think its worth mentioning our best cb (who started for two years in mls as a teenager before playing consistently in holland, france and now the lowly english second division), thats all. cause league rankings aside, hes 23 and absolutely one of our best 11.
You're free to make your own list and include 2.BuLI and Championship guys if you like. Truth be told, MLS and those two are close. PS: True, I should remove Weah from my list. I'm excited over him, but the SPL is not above MLS level. Sigh.
I would not underestimate Weah. Playing well along the front line is a lot more difficult than sitting in the Tyler Adams Kante 'comfort 6'. Julius Caesar patrolled the front lines of his armies exposing himself to danger and his troops responded by winning battles that made Julius the legend that he remains to this day. Its easy for your average US soccer media stool pigeon to jump on the Adams-McKennie bandwagon but the guys I'm interested in are the guys who put in on the line like Weah and Sargent and Pulisic.
You are all over the place in disparaging Adam's. You dont seem to understand the role he is playing. A week or two ago you claimed he was poor when staying at home and was much better when he was moved forward and got an assist when his role didnt change at all. We have all seen this before. The only problem you have with Adam's and mckennie is they are competition and better than your "guys".... Trapp and Delgado.
I watched the first half of the Wolfsburg/Monchengladbach game and Fabian Johnson looks to the best outside back we have right now. I'd bet he would be very comfortable stepping up and inside in the attack if that is what Berhalter wanted from him. He should be the placeholder until someone else steps up. Also, with Brooks spraying long diagonal balls, it wouldn't be as necessary for the central midfielder to do so. Come to think of it, Brooks is a better passer and better on the ball under pressure than MB/wtf90.
Simply starting is not enough. You have to shine as well, and he didn't do so. His time may come soon, but we have to allow it to happen organically.
He would just be filling a role in need and help Berhalter get the team playing his system. Based on thread title, he should be in the lineup. Based on the concerns you raise, we shouldn't count on him and should be actively looking for his replacement and giving others minutes.