Argentina : World cup 2018 Russia discussion

Hi gauchos, Im just stopping by to ask if Higuain is still celebrating that offside goal..?

 

Nope, most South Americans don't give a crap about any Slav nation, even those from that background.
#Brave New World

Sure, almost every country has shameful episodes in their history. The difference is the Balkanization genocide was based on the "holy bloodlines" mentality that you are writing about here. And obviously, some of you have not yet gotten over it.

That's the case for any first or second generation immigrants, whether it's Croatia, Singapore, Lebanon, Honduras, Lesotho or any other place. It does not make your country special in this regard.

 

Very weird and dangerous stuff if taken seriously, like going back in time to the 16th century.

 

I posted videos. They care, especially if they are from that background. And I saw Daniel Orsanic in that Davis Cup, his words, sentiments. His grandfather came from Croatia in Argentina. I also saw Maradona, who made jokes in Croatia with question: Do I have some nice land to inherit? Dario Cvitanich also knows who he is.

It seems that if someone from South America wants to play for another country in Europe, this becomes terrible act there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Costa

"A Brazilian player who refuses to wear the shirt of the Brazilian national team and compete in a World Cup in your country is automatically withdrawn. He is turning his back on a dream of millions, to represent our national team, the five-time champions in a World Cup in Brazil." - Italian Scolari said this.

"The CBF judicial director, Carlos Eugênio Lopes, said,

"It's obvious that the reason he made that choice was financial. The chairman [of the CBF, José Maria Marin] authorised me to open a legal action at the Justice Ministry requesting that he loses his Brazilian citizenship, which Diego Costa has rejected... The chairman told me that Costa has proved he's not fit to be part of the Scolari family, that he would contaminate the family because he's not committed to Brazil, but to Spain. He rejected his Brazilian citizenship. Marin has asked me to study the situation deeply in order to keep him from ever playing for Spain. He told me that, from now on, Costa is 'persona non grata' at the national team and that the players themselves wouldn't welcome him because of that episode"."

For me, these types of words are not normal, but they said this because majority of people think like that. Persona non grata - if you play football for someone else. In Europe, if someone plays for another team, this is not some big deal.

For example, Mark Viduka (Australia) and Luka Modric (Croatia) are cousins. Viduka played for Australia. Similar is with some other players. Josip Drmic plays for Switzerland, Mario Gavranovic plays in Croatian league, but he plays for Switzerland. And no one attacks him. Football is taken too seriously in Brazil, Argentina. Someone plays for someone because of financial reasons, background sentiment.

Even other countries have people who return back home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esteban_Saveljich

Similar thing is with Thiago Motta, Mauro Camoranesi, Eder, Paulo Rink...even if they live 100 years abroad. Paulo Rink since 1904.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Rink

In many Central and South American countries junta militar is something pretty normal, same as guerilla warcraft. With strong leftist - rightist conflicts. So I don't understand when you say about war history in any other state and depicting them as bad people. If you have tones of similar - worse aspects in your own area. A lot of European negative war figures have found their safety moments in some South American countries.

Similar is with other groups:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...s-argentina-we-are-strangers-our-own-country/

What's the point of your words? People return back home in Europe from their native South American countries. You think that if someone arrives in a new country, that he gets acute amnesia and he erases his past.
There is no holy bloodlines. Especially because I wrote how Europeans are much weaker in football. Since Roman Empire, all Europeans settled, resettled in different areas. So there are no holy lines.

Country is special for those who came from that specific country. If someone arrives from Lebanon in Argentina. He won't forget his Lebanese past.
Same is with you, since you speak English solid, I assume that you live in USA-Canada. But you write as someone from Argentina. You haven't erased that period.

You are just using the style, if you something hate-dislike, everyone needs to hate-dislike. Even with proofs, you act subjective - persona apasionada...

 

They are temperamental Croatia as are Serbia. On their day they can roll over anyone but there seems to be a mental flaw at times with them. However they have changed coach and are a different prospect.

I think we should not worry about who we play so long as Samp and his team do their homework. And I am sure they will do that. They live in the modern era of coaching. They will also have a month to bring cohesion to the side and tactical flexibility.

It's a pity Samp wasn't at the start of the cycle and I still think 2022 is a more realistic target. But with the attack we have everyone will fear us. So expect all teams to counter us. We need to forge our own attack and sort out that defence and midfield.

I firmly believe we have the defensive and midfield options to upgrade if Samp chooses the right players and who are fresh and on form. Again 2022 will see us with a wealth of defensive options. Right now we have a nucleus of such players aged 19-21 who are still raw but much better than in previous years.

On paper we should roll over Iceland, have too much nowse for Nigeria but a real test will be Croatia who on their day are as good as any team in Europe. But we cannot fret about the draw (personally I think it's the hardest group) or the round of sixteen. We have to aim to win and take each game as it comes.

Ideally our third match should be a dead rubber so we can rest players. You cannot underestimate the importance of it.

 

Ah the mighty TSV Munich. Always the bridesmaids never the bride. Go away and admire your Gotze poster above your bed.

 

There is a Polish national day as well in BA. But your points about pace and strength are not well aligned to football.

Football is more about technique, footballing intelligence and tactics. There have been plenty of nations with pacy players and strong players who never succeed. African teams have struggled despite their pace and power because football is more subtle than that.

Your dialogue is giving up the ghost before you play. We will struggle because we are playing a team of supposed stronger faster players. Eh ? The ball is the fastest thing on the pitch and allied to a fast footballing brain that's what settle matters. All these generalizations are just that. The Latin temperament, Germanic efficiency, Italian defensiveness, Spanish mentally weak.

All have been disproved. They are just empty cliches. The reason football in most of Eastern Europe has struggled post Communism is a lack of facilities, poor coaching and adaptation to the modern game. Corruption in sporting bodies. Nothing else.

 

There are some interesting facts.

Angel Di Maria - his running ability is excellent. He came in Europe in 2007 and he keeps very high performance through years in 4 completely different leagues. He obviously has Aboriginal (beside Italian, Spanish) element which helps him to adapt much faster.
Typical European footballer is mostly arrogant, he is concerned with his hair style, tatoo effect on his hands, he cares about social network, how he becomes accepted among fans, he is often injured, he recovers much slower. After 60,70 minutes he becomes tired, evidently visible in broadcasts. Many of them become additional weight. There is no responsibility, ambition.

The nature od Di Maria is different, he is much more modest as a person, he doesn't care about some outside factors. Because of that, he is often in the 2nd plan compared with players like Messi, Ronaldo...for sure he can play 5,6 years on a high level.

Neymar is also great example of that strength when he adapts fast.

On the other hand, Luka Modric said that he doesn't like to work in the gym, create much more muscular body.

About Polish community in Argentina I don't know much. I know about basketball player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubén_Wolkowyski

Nickname of Hernan Crespo is El Polaco. Obviously another community that cares about their origins. It's important to say that Slavic nations don't like each other. They all have their own customs, history. Croatia has good relations with Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland from North and in Balkan maybe Macedonia, Bulgaria, because they don't share the border. That's all about Slavic friendship...and tolerance. I even mentioned too many countries here. In Balkan area, there are no friends.

Croatian football has this tradition, that they have harder moments against France, Portugal, England. Croatia lost in one friendly match against Netherlands 3-0. Very easy victory. French, Portuguese, English, Dutch players dictate higher physical model. They often have Caribbean, African, Surinamese heritage. I also remembered one match with Morocco, they had penalties, one tournament of four teams in Morocco. It was also hard. Also, World Cup 2006 against Japan, their running abilities and bunker during hot summer provided them 0-0. Croatia lost against Belgium at home. Another team with players from different continents. Just observe Nainggolan. Perfect CM player. Especially Kompany in defence, Witsel, Fellaini...

Croatia plays much better against Germany, Italy, Scandinavian countries, east European teams, Balkan teams, Spain if they have a good day.

Against Nigeria, Croatia hopes that they will lose discipline. I don't know about them now. They had nice past in 90's, with some great players later like Obi Mikel, Obafemi Martins, Odemwingie.

Kelechi Iheanacho is someone who will be very known in the future. Cameroon collapsed in discipline, red card in Brazil 2014. They often have problems with selecting players, different interests, like with Togo, Senegal...

The Latin temperament - this temperament is present among my ancestors. So I can understand it. They have something poetic in their mind, visions, they are ready to die in some beauty. Pride is mixed with high desires, expectations.
This is helpful often, because they don't accept subordinated role.
But I remembered the match Germany - Brazil in 2014. Germany destroyed that temperament. No comeback.

- Football is more about technique, footballing intelligence and tactics. -

This was before 10-15 years maybe. Today we see different type of players, much taller, who build their bodies, muscle tones. Because of that European football became slightly boring. Majority of better European clubs use technique, football intelligence from Brazilians, Chileans, Argentinians, Colombians, Uruguay players.

That's why I think that Argentina and Uruguay could be much better opponents for Croatia than Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay.

In Croatian team, only Mandzukic has running ability, maybe Milan Badelj, Domagoj Vida also, Ivan Perisic, that's all I think.

About Croatia, it's interesting to mention that all best players come from Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Northern Croats are not good in football.

If we remember World Cup 1998, Croatia had 8 players from Herzegovina (Boban, Suker, Juric, Soldo, Mamic, Simic, Jurcic, Vasilj) region, 5 Dalmatians (Stimac (he also has Herzegovina origins with Dalmatian), Slaven Bilic, Anthony Seric, Igor Tudor, Alen Boksic...

After that world cup, Bosnian players have much higher influence, like Rakitic, Mandzukic, Corluka, Lovren. They are the holders of contemporary game.

Modric is from Dalmatia, same as Strinic, Subasic, Perisic, Rebic, Kalinic.

This is because their ancestors lived by the sea, or among hinterland mountains, harder life, desire to survive among olive trees, vineyards...they are taller, physically stronger than northern Croats.

The same circle, consisted of mostly three regions. Some of them are born in northern Croatia, but their origins are from south. Also, northern Croatia has much stronger economic development, south is mostly based on tourism, typical Mediterranean life. Even without facilities, good coaches, they came out as developed world players.

Several players from northern Croatia: Robert Jarni, father of Robert Prosinecki, Marko Rog, Marcelo Brozovic. But only two had that world reputation. They had the opportunity to have good facilities, good coaches.

Other Balkan teams - some of them are talented. But I doubt that current Bosnia - Herzegovina team, Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Slovenia can do much.

If we mention Bulgaria, Romania, we can all remember Gheorghe Hagi and Hristo Stoichkov. I think that Bulgaria will return back. Greece invented Olympic Games, pioneers of sports activities, but in football they don't perform well, even though they have European title.

Hagi has Aromanian background. They are also talented in sports. Western Balkan uses the term Vlachs or Morlachs for Aromanian people, they are present mostly in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Serbia. So, I see here that connection.

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listă_de_personalități_aromâne

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

Lets not confuse them with Romani people, who also have good football abilities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

Aljosa Asanovic, Gignac, Vairelles, Guiza, Jose Mari, Gerd Muller, Jesus Navas, Nacho Novo, Quaresma, Reyes.

Corruption in football is present on every continent. Everyone becomes weak in matter of money, real estates. Entire humanity shares the love for those factors.

In Yugoslavia, football was carried with Croats, Serbs mostly. Similar is today, these two produce much more talents. Yugoslav Football Federation was founded in Croatian capital and Croatia has the oldest football federation compared with other ex-Yugoslav countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Yugoslavia

It would be much better that they all participated at World Cups separately, like England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.

 

Thomas Hassler played for them, same as Martin Max, Davor Suker, Ivica Olic...in one period they were among top 4 clubs in Germany. Back than, league was much stronger than today (Werder, Leverkusen, Kaiserslautern, Dortmund, Stuttgart, HSV, Schalke). Munchen 1860 was among them.

Bayern Munchen buys the best players in Bundesliga, so they make other clubs much weaker.

 

you guys are dripping in attacking talent.

Messi, Higuain, Aguero, Dybala, Icardi

does the latter even get called up for the WC? how to include the former 3 where it's most effective despite the last 2 WC's when Aguero/Higuain weren't so lethal?

 

I think that Sampaoli doesn't like Higuain. Probably because he doesn't need another star in locker room. He wants to create everything around Messi, leader role and others are team spirit players. Icardi is much more acceptable for Sampaoli.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/jorge-s...ardi-more-gonzalo-/120ia5xyrwkk6180xkbi56sv0q

Some conflict exists. This reminds me on Domenech - Trezeguet conflict which was justified with bad horoscope sign of Trezeguet.

I would invite: Romero - Fazio, Pezzella, Mascherano, Otamendi - Enzo Perez, Perotti, Salvio, Banega, Lo Celso, Biglia, Acuna, Pastore, Pizarro, Augusto Fernandez - Icardi, Correa, Higuain, Aguero, Messi, Di Maria, Dybala.

This seems as the best what Argentina currently has. Unless if they find someone from national league.

But I see here Cabezon effect in Higuain, Messi, Aguero.

 

Serbia&Montenegro did. Without looking, I believe they had only allowed a goal or two in the qualifiers. They got taken to the woodshed against us.

I've been here for the 2010 and 2014 World Cup's. I've noticed there is always some weirdo from one of the teams we're facing that posts a bunch of nonsense, trying to push their agenda. I guess, 2018 won't be any different.
—————-—
Nearly all Argentinos have ancestry from the "old country". I have Italian,German, Spanish and Greek ancestry but as @locoxriver stated I am 100% Argentine.

Hell, we have songs expressing our love for Argentina and being Argentne.

In 2006, when Camoranesi was asked why didn't he sing the national anthem he stated that it wasn't his anthem.

@Gilbertsson

But let’s end this here. Nobody wants to hear some anthropological, social or historical theory in genetics in footballing mechanics, this is our World Cup discussion forum. I’m sure there is some type of sub-forum that can cater to your needs here on BS.

I mean, if he wants to talk about how we’re going to whip your ass come June, then we can do that.

 

what i wonder though how it is for guys like Aguero or Higuain. Huge stars for their respective clubs and leagues and whether they will start or ride the bench. A surplus of riches in talent.

 

So... you would invite one GK, take players like Biglia, Pastore, Fatso to the tournament? While you leave out Lanzini, Alario, Paredes,and Ascacibar?

I don’t even know where the fitness level of Augusto Fernandez is, and he is a player I admire greatly.

 

SupaMario, did you had potential in sports? Greece is good in basketball, same as Spain and Italy. You are 100 % Argentino maybe because you don't know who to pick from your "old" countries and you never lived there. Maybe you know them much more from National Geographic, itinerary broadcasts about tourism, wine, gastronomy. Also, Argentina provides good football, basketball, tennis, even rugby. So you have plenty of materials. Maybe you are 3rd, 4th or 5th generation, so you don't have that sentiment. Maybe those who left their old countries had bitter taste, they left because of economic, political reasons. Europe was not pleasant place in 19th, 20th century, especially until 1950.

I understand why did Camporanesi choose Italy. He could not enter among: Maxi Rodriguez, Cambiasso, Aimar, Riquelme, Lucho Gonzalez, even Mascherano played in central part back than. Camoranesi was maybe better than Maxi Rodriguez, but it's hard to say. Also, Camoranesi played well in Juventus. Players of Juventus are mostly Italian NT players.

I came here just because Croatia and Argentina are in the same group. I also visited River Plate page.

It's not nonsense.

For example, Croatian city of Zadar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadar

These sports people have origins from that city:

Kresimir Cosic - Basketball Hall of Fame member

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krešimir_Ćosić

Sime Fantela - European, World, Olympic winner in sailing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šime_Fantela

Arijan Komazec - World Cup winner in basketball. This was in Argentina. So that you don't think: it's off topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arijan_Komazec

Luka Modric

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Modrić

Zoran Primorac - one of the best European table tennis players

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoran_Primorac

Dado Prso, footballer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dado_Pršo

Josip Skoblar: Marseille footballer, European Golden Shoe 1971, top goal scorer three seasons in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Skoblar

Zlatan Ibrahimovic - his mother is from Zadar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatan_Ibrahimović

Stipe Miocic, both parents, UFC fighter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipe_Miocic

Zadar has only 78 000 of residents.

City of Split is also interesting, but Split has more residents. 178 000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split,_Croatia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomislav_Ivić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaven_Bilić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aljoša_Asanović

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivica_Šurjak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Kukoč

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dino_Rađa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Žan_Tabak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roko_Ukić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano_Balić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Ivanišević

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Pilić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Željko_Franulović

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Ančić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanka_Vlašić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_Parlov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Cikatić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deni_Lušić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mislav_Bezmalinović

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renco_Posinković

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duje_Bonačić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siniša_Skelin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikša_Skelin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Šegvić

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_Trojanović

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velimir_Valenta

Different sports, but they were very high in performance and results. It's not something usual to have so many sports people from such smaller cities. We can't measure these cities with cities which have several millions of people.

These tennis players from above are from the same Split quarter called Firule.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firule

Four NBA players, in that period Europe had maybe 10 NBA players.
The best handballer of all times, Ivano Balic.
Winners in water polo, sailing venues.

You can't say that this is usual and say, it's not connected with anthropology, traditions and pre-conditions.

 

One GK mostly plays in one tournament. If someone replaces goalkeeper and if the injury is not the reason, this brings restless moments in the team, burden for the new goalkeeper, fear of defenders.

 

Yes, Argentina has the potential to win the title. But I also liked that team from World Cup 2006. Those penalties against Germany are well remembered, same as the conflicts after the match. Gabriel Heinze chased Oliver Bierhoff (coach assistant) on the field. Lehmann had everything written on his paper, who shoots where. This is something that only Germany would follow. Literally, they investigate everything. And Argentine players saw this, they knew that he reads and still they don't change their shooting direction.

 

You’re required to take three GK’s. Doesn’t matter only one plays.

 

I don't know much about other two. Maybe Marchesin or Rulli with Romero.

 

was there ever a team that played all 3 keepers in a World Cup?

all i can think of is the Dutch in the last WC. 1 keeper used for 95% of the tournament while 1 is used for a PK shootout in the QF and the last used for a few minutes in the 3rd place play-off game.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/may/26/world-cup-2010-three-goalkeepers

They could remove one spot so that they bring someone from other positions. Even some players don't see the game. They warm up, but nothing.

 

Croatia has always had the mental problem of Lako ce mo. Not going to get into all the corruption problems but there is plenty there. As far as runners Rog can run all day as well. Stuck behind a stacked midfield in Napoli but the kid is good. Will see if the new manager can get the tactics and motivation right. This is a difficult group but Argentina is clear favorites if they can get there act together as nobody can match there attack if there coach can get the balance right. He was great with Sevilla and Chile so we will see if he can get it right with Argentina.

 

Well this Lako cemo (Easy) shows about Iceland and Nigeria. From all of these Pot 1 Teams, it's much better to get Russia, Poland, Argentina, Germany than Belgium, Portugal, Brazil, France.
Since Croatia could not get Poland and Russia. Argentina seems as third or fourth best choice. I consider Germany as similar level like Argentina.
Rog doesn't get too many chances. He is one of those rare northern Croats who has talent. Someone outside of Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Sampaoli needs to defeat the stars in his own team. There is strong pressure on Argentine players, especially because of two lost finals at Copa America, lost World Cup title. Several players wanted to retire.

I wonder how could slow and old Strinic react on Aguero, Di Maria, Aguero...or Pivaric, he swims all the time, easy to pass the ball behind him. Not sure about Lovren also, his sudden mistakes. Vrsaljko and Vida are the only ones who are consistent.
Will they invite Tin Jedvaj?
Is Mateo Mitrovic good for a high level match? He is in Besiktas, they are in the knock out stage of Champions League. He plays there with Pepe and Gary Medel. They both know how Argentina plays.
Sampaoli wouldn't take over Argentina if he doesn't feel something nice.
Lack of success with Argentina can cost the future coaching career. Just remember Gerardo Martino: Barcelona, Argentina - Atlanta United.