He had quite a few good passes that got wasted, and one very good shot at goal, all in the second half. The Messi hate is ridiculous. It's not his fault the rest of the team doesn't know how to play with short passes. In fact, Messi has had the extreme bad luck of playing with what is probably the first ever Argentine team that mostly play in club teams that have a quick, counterattacking style. The moment the opposing team bunkers in, Messi tries his classic short passes in the area, and the rest of the team seems dumbfounded. It's the most England-like Argentine team in history. This has been true for Argentina the past few years. The real problem is likely that every coach has tried to make this Argentine team play more like it did some decades ago, even though it's now full of players more suited to sitting back and countering.
I think everyone is overreacting a bit. With a few changes in the line-up we should see a great game on Wed. My opinion, Pastore and Aguero up front with Messi just behind them creating opportunities. With Tevez coming off the bench first and Di maria second if either is needed.
I didn't think Messi had a terrible game at all and at moments I thought he had some really nice runs but overall, especially with the second half factored in he was at the very best "good". Having an opinion on a player isn't hate, it's simply an opinion. What I see is a Messi that is having a coach in Batista that is trying to emulate Barca with the 433 and it's concepts. In theory it should work aside from the fact we don't have the defenders Barca have nor do we have the midfielders Barca have. What it ultimately comes down to is the system was built around Messi because Messi hasn't shown an ability to really play that great outside that system. Not hate, just reality.
Is Checho capable of making those changes though? It's just the player swaps but what about the formation? He had some success using the 4231 which is a more natural fit for the type of players Argentina produces but something tells me we'll see the 433 yet again.
ME PARECE que argentina de messi y carlitos, seria mas contundente sin lavezzi (carroloko recolucionado y peleador) y sin rojo (un trabajo muy escondido y de poco aporte grupal) Esos puestos son del Kun y de angel diMaria todos se verian mas enchufados se viene el partido colombia - costa volpe, hay quein pueda abrir un thread con alineaciones para comentarlas?
I agree that this is what Batista seems to be trying to do with the team. Where my opinion differs with yours is in the idea that Messi can't play differently. I've seen him play many different roles successfully. Again, I think the problem is that the other players on the team seem to want to run into the area head on without thinking of passing it back to another player (and when they do try, they don't do it well). Tevez and Lavezzi both never seem very good at passing when there are many defenders around. Barcelona has an incredible ability to pass even in small areas. Messi himself is very capable of doing both short and long passes very well. But when he does the short passes, his teammates don't seem to handle them very well. This doesn't seem to me to be Messi's fault; his passes are just as good as in Barca. But when the other player receives the pass, the often lose it quickly, because they're not used to playing in a short area. So to summarize, I think Messi can play many roles in many different situations, which is what makes him a great player. I don't think the others around him can, and they don't have much of an ability to pass the ball when in trouble. As some other poster said, Messi should actually be more selfish and just try to do everything by himself once he's near the area, especially when running up against a well positioned defense. He's very good at scoring goals from distance. He should try those more often. As for specific tactics, I don't think Lavezzi belongs there as a starter. He is really fast, but doesn't give very good crosses from the right. He seems like he would be a good substitute player.
This is the best way I've seen you sum up the critique of Messi, and it's absolutely fair. But there again, you're also pointing out the mind numbing inability of the AFA to elect a tactically competent coach. Trying to emulate Barca w/o providing the proper pieces is simply stupid. In that way, Messi is being set up to take the blame. Because it will be said that the system was changed to fit him, when in fact it hasn't been since the required ingredients are not there to take advantage of his talents. Sadly, when Messi was younger and not nearly as good as he is now, I feel that we had the foundation of a good relationship between Riquelme and him. Of course, the contigent that hated Roman just kept nitpicking at the slightest opening. I am certain that the current version of Messi would be lighting it up with an in shape Roman, but what can be done now??? I will disagree with you and say that Messi HAS shown an ability to play well outside of Barca's system, in his early days with the NT and the last Copa America. During those stretches, he actually did have a good system in place. Outside of that, he's simply been playing in an Argentina team with no orientation. Yes, he is a part of the problem too, but he's way down on a long list. This is simply a situation that keeps frustrating me more and more. Argentina has found a way to do what in my mind should be impossible...neuter Messi and do the opposition's job of stopping him.
So true. When he was dropped to the midfield in second half, he barely touched the ball. Everything was going through the wings and Messi looked lost. Aguero could have passed instead of shooting for his second chance as Messi was unmarked at the center. At times players looked like bypassing Messi and having no faith on him. sad, really sad.
I thought that Messi had a good first half and a decent second half. The problem was with bringing in DiMaria to play in Tevez' spot and moving Tevez to replace Cambiasso was a exercise in STUPIDITY. Batista should have used his 4-2-2-2 like in the Olympics. I swear that I think Grondona is really the DT and Batista is just a puppet. Let's bring Bianchi, Pekerman or Bielsa. These are TRUE DT's! You know I liked Batista but now he's showing that the Olympics were a fluke and probably more related to the inspiration of Riquelme than anything else.
When is it going to be Messi's fault? I also agree that he didnt have that mad a game, although Ill take his first half performance over the 2nd, even though I blame Batista for that.
This is the very reason why I've been saying that we need to drop Messi. We simply don't understand how to play with him, being that the case, let's simply things and go with things we know.
En serio quieres ver a Di Maria de lateral izquierdo? Dicho sea de paso, el centro (en el gol de Argentina) fue de Rojo.
Oh he can, he just hasn't shown he can do it for Argentina. From 442 to 433, it's the same thing. If Messi had the football brain and leadership ability that many have been claiming since 2006 then he'd take action on the pitch and direct his teammates. He doesn't do that and you can't blame anyone but him for that. He's human, I know it's hard to believe but he has flaws in his game. So his performances and results are everybody else fault except his? Thanks for clearing that up. Isn't he already doing that? Since the WC qualifiers he's played more minutes, had more touches, taken more shots.......with all that he still hasn't scored a goal in a full international in how long? Until he starts finishing some of the 30+ shots on goal I'd be inclined to not give him the ball more. Here is the thing about Messi's success in the early days. His best matches for the exception of the Olympics were when he was a peripheral player, the second and third option on the field. The Olympics are what showed his dependence on an Riquelme/Xavi/Iniesta type player. He's still great, just not the player some want to believe he is. You've been around these boards long enough, coming out of 2006 people were posting all this things Messi would be doing in no time. He's not doing it though is he?
Moishe - I've been saying for a while now that we need to play WITHOUT Messi, yet I'm getting chewed up for it. It's evident that Messi can't be our 10 and we are a country where we demand so much from the position and the shirt. We need to build a team first and then see if Messi can fit into Argentina's scheme. At which point he can be the periphery player that you talk about. We drop the 433 and move towards a 4 3 1 2 - a more classic Argentine style of play. BTW Batista called his 4231 a 4222. Either way. It was a more effective system than this upsetting non Argentine 433.
It seems hardly fair to blame Messi for the lofty premature expectations of some Bigsoccer posters. I never saw him come and make ludicrous pronouncements about how great he is. Messi is what he is and it's plenty good. That Argentina has not put a coaching brain to extract those abilities cannot be laid solely at his feet. His ever greater achievements at Barca are pointed indictments of those in charge or Argentina. Shots that he's creating himself out of nothing, for the most part. Carrying the ball out of midfield and going through a host of players. I see that more as a credit to him that he gets off those shots than an indictment, especially considering those opportunites usually represent the most danger that the attack can muster. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing a good team concept around you in order to succeed. If Messi needs a good midfield to support him, it's only normal. Besides, I don't remember Roman having a particularly scintillating Olympics. That team won because of overal overwhelming superiority in terms of talent. A lot of people unduly game Batista props for that triumph. When others were proclaiming that he'd be conquering the world all by himself, I'm sure that you will remember that I wasn't among them. This is a team sport. It was obvious that the best hope for Argentina at the time was an in-form Riquelme. I wonder on which side of the argument Cosmos fell at the time. The sooner Argentina gets its midfield in order, the sooner Messi will be the player he is capable of being. Simple as that. Bianchi or Peckerman, I'd be on board with. I don't want to even hear the name of Bielsa. Not that he's a bad coach but his stubborness was the prime culprit for 2002. But why play w/o MESSI? Why is he the problem?
Yes you are correct, the soccer brain of Argentina CAN'T extract the juice from Messi. They haven't been able to since 2005 - 6 years - so why even continue. We are losing our prestige and that's something that we can't replicate. We need to get back to the old Argentina and our domination of soccer worldwide. That means NO MESSI - for now. At least until we can get a good team together. Yes but quite honestly, he lost possession quite a few times. There are several players that could handle this job way better than Messi. No Roman didn't but at the same time, he was the brain on the field. More so than Batista was the brain off the field. Secondly if talent wins you games then we should have trashed Bolivia 7-0 last night and we didn't. We walked off the field asking for the time! At the time, Batista was the man, He should have gone on to be the DT of the Seleccion but the Maradona incident happened. Batista in the spirit of the time was the right guy at the right place. He had control over Riquelme and his confidence. He was able to bridge the gap. Now two years later he's no longer in the right time nor with the right confidence to lead this team anywhere. How is Batista any else stubborn? He basically said last night that he wasn't going to change his system for anything in the world? Stubborness being equal, I'd pick Bielsa over Batista any day of the week. He's the problem because we don't know how to use him. We don't know how to employ him properly and he becomes a detriment rather than a useful attacking tool. I get your points about Messi being good and the best in the world, but unfortunately, all those points come from his time AT BARCELONA, not the Argentine NT. For the NT he's just been average. It's the same thing over and over again with Messi. It's just not working. I swear to you, I WANT TO EAT ALL MY WORDS with regards to Messi, but its just not happening and doesn't seem to be happening any time soon either. I want to say I'm wrong and that Messi finally has meshed with the Seleccion. I want everyone in this forum to get on me because I didn't believe in Messi and Batista as we hold up the CUP, but after last night, that seems further and further away. I cry everytime we don't make it all the way. It takes a long time to recover from the pain. As evidenced after this last WC, I stopped posting for many months and when I returned it wasn't with the same frequency. As an Argentine, futbol means everything to us, its woven into every fabric of our lives. We need this WIN like we NEED TO BREATHE.
If a team got Messi yet benching him since they suck at figure things out then they need to quit. The problem isn't Messi. It's the midfield and defense.
It wouldn't have made a difference whether Batista took the job after the Olympics. He did not all of a sudden become a worse coach. Talent alone does not win all the time, but at some point, you have such overwhelming talent over your opposition, that you can't help but to at last stumble upon a win. If Argentina did not win that tournament, I would have heaped a world of criticism on even my beloved Riquelme. I warned people at the time they won that the Olympics campaign told me absolutely nothing about Checho's skills as a coach. He simply wasn't challenged. I still don't know much about the man, but he at least deserves a chance to finish out his first competition, doesn't he? I may not like what I see so far, but it's way too early to be throwing him under the bus. I swear you'd still have Maradona as coach, if it was up to you, even after his many debacles. When the team crashed out of the WC after you were so convinced they would win it because of his brilliance, you simply stayed away for a while. I never saw any criticism of Diego coming from you when you came. It's as if it all didn't happen. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize in advance. Yet, the rules are different for Batista? Any coach that would change his system after the first game of a tournament is no coach to me. He can shuffle the personnel but the idea of switching all his plans after one bad match is stupid. By the way, it clearly must have slipped your notice, but HE DID switch to the 4-2-1-3 at half time. But like it's been for so long with this team, the execution was horrendous. Here's why I will ALWAYS have a problem with your ceaseless attacks on Messi. It's not just him they don't know how to use. It's every single player, it seems. It's Tevez, it's Di Maria, it's Banega, it's Cambiasso, it's Higuain, it's Diego Millito, it's Kun (when he starts), Lucho, D Alessandro, Veron...you name it. Even the ones that they can't screw up how to use them suffer dips in form when they play for the NT, like Mascherano. How is it that something so obvious cannot be seen? If just about every single player plays at a lower level than they do at their clubs, where they are winning trophies and are top level talents, the obvious logical answer is that we are dealing with a systematic problem with those who run the selection. Singling out Messi, for the simple reason that he's regarded as being the world's best player is just being mentally lazy, in my humble opinion. If I am incorrect about the points in this paragraph, please set me straight.