Thanks poet. Just for vote counting purposes, which out of Di Stefano and Cruyff would you say you are putting in as the number 8 and which number 10 (since I was specifying them not based on right/left but on which was more box to box and which the more attacking - I can see you basically picked them in similar/identical roles but I guess it helps to clarify in case the standings become unclear regarding who makes the consensus XI at #8 or #10 at any point)? Not an attempt to seek inclusion for him in your team, and Puck will obviously be well aware of this more than most people, but on Van Basten again I would add that I do actually think he was a player who could be like you say in the quote below: "highly athletic, with major focus on pace, and they must be all-rounder attackers who can dribble, create chances, and score goals" And maybe I even think you are downplaying Pele with that 'hybrid' comment haha - I might even see him more as a Zico/Van Basten hybrid in some ways (obviously despite his leap, he was not nearly as tall as Van Basten though for example), or close to it! Your vote seems to have further cemented some players places in the early running for Big Soccer consensus XI anyway: Buffon, Figueroa, Alves....plus brought Rijkaard in maybe (I'll have to see when I count up as I know both him and Beckenbauer have votes for CB and CM positions, and I think Beckenbauer is in currently so it could be a case of Rijkaard vs Baresi, with Rijkaard I think having more overall votes at least now).
I would say Cruyff is the 10 and ADS is the 8. I think Cruyff was better on the ball, while ADS is better at making runs into the box. Yes, Basten could fit that description, particularly his Ajax version when he was actually quite fast, but I couldn't leave out Pele, could I? My hybrid comment was not a commentary on his ability, as certainly he is better than Suarez/Firmino. It was a commentary on his role. There are a number of solo no.9s doing very well in the modern era. Suarez, Firmino, Lewandowski, Augero, and even Kane all come to mind. I just think the role that would best fit Pele would be a hybrid of Suarez/Firmino as the former is quite dynamic but also obviously the team's main scoring threat, while Firmino is highly mobile and plays almost 2nd fiddle to Salah and Mane. Pele can provide the kind of support that Firmino can, to bring out the best in the talents around him, but he is still the team's main goal-scorer.
Thanks mate for the clarification(s). I should probably check on Beckenbauer and Figueroa too for #5 and #6. While I'm doing that I can clarify myself a bit further on 'covering defender' (I was thinking like Scirea for Italy/Juve), 'marker' (I was thinking like his centre-back partner such as Collovati who would be allowing Scirea to sweep up behind), 'supporting defender' (I was thinking like Bobby Moore in World Cup 1966 - he was still acting a bit like a wing-half so supported the main centre-back(centre-half) and also came out with the ball, but didn't really act as a sweeper) and 'stopper' (Jack Charlton, alongside/behind Moore in that team for example). Obviously I used a combination of 'covering defender' and 'supporting defender' myself really (unless we say Baresi would be used more in 'stopper' guise) and I can see you've gone again with very much a partnership. I guess it depends on whether you'd envisage Beckenbauer generally hanging behind Figueroa, or playing the Bobby Moore-esque supporting role with Figueroa the main last man in defence. Beckenbauer would be #5 for 'covering/sweeping' and #6 for 'supporting'. If you don't mind either way I might go with #6 based on what you've said, but let me know if you'd say otherwise. Again it's just in case it helps with counting votes although I'd try to consider overall votes as a CB I guess too, especially in teams without a clear sweeper/marker distinction (at least to help with tie-breakers if necessary)!
1 - Gianluigi Buffon 2 - Carlos Alberto 3 - Giacinto Facchetti 4 - Gaetano Scirea 5 - Frank Rijkaard 6 - Elias Figueroa 7 - Lionel Messi 8 - Xavi Hernandez 9 - Johann Cruyff 10 - Pele 11 - Diego Maradona -------------------Cruyff ---Maradona-Pele-Messi ---------Rijkaard--Xavi Facchetti-Scirea-Figueroa-Cafu -------------------Buffon
Thanks Ed! Carlos Alberto becomes the latest player to receive his first vote now then. I think you have Scirea as the 'covering' defender there do you if you have to make my distinction (referring to post 1 and also my post to poetgooner above)? You've numbered Rijkaard with the South American number 5 I see haha (for his midfield role) but I know that clearly according to my opening post he'd fit the number 4 role, so it's probably just a switch between him and Scirea necessary I think.
No problem - I wasn't 100% sure you weren't numbering them according to how you'd hand out the shirts, but I'll just count Scirea as a number 5 then. I should possibly have said 'South American or Hungarian number 5' anyway since Bozsik at least used to wear that number and play in midfield of course, but I think that was specific to the era and probably hasn't carried on as a Hungarian tradition the same way! I seem to remember some Liverpool central midfielders doing it in the 80s (Nigel Spackman, Ronnie Whelan when he played that role?) but that was just more a case of them being a team that started to be a bit random and quirky with numbers even lining up in a 4-4-2 (Dalglish wearing number 7 for example, and later Barnes wore 10 and played left wing I think didn't he....)!
To finish with comments on the remaining players (those are the same as @PDG1978 ): Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler - Pele is for me still the best ever, relative to his own time. No one is perfect, circumstances and luck are important (other players in history were more like 'creating the circumstances'), but with a gun on my head I'd still pick him. - Platini is one of the most effective players in history. He ticks all the boxes of effectiveness. From a through-ball machine, many goals against elite sides, and yes also having a demonstrable (upward) influence on his teams. He did this for less-than-great teams too. If I have to make an effectiveness and efficiency all-time XI then he is an even stronger pick. Often 'efficiency' is purely seen in the sense of running and physical supremacy, but here it's also efficiency in technique. Platini was a highly efficient shooter, efficient passer. The last decade is a pity but that doesn't take away my admiration for the player. - Beckenbauer is the best 'defender' - the best footballer overall (shooting as main weakness) - but also the most unusual defender of all legends. The number of shots and dribble attempts show this, while from time to time conceding quite a few goals (euro 1976, various league seasons). In the end the pros outweighed the cons by a margin but it's not the most suitable style for league football (this also applies to Redondo - greater player for short tournaments than medium and long competitions). As a pure defender with a more regular league record then Baresi and others are 'better' yes but none of them are as good footballers and he's statistically also among the most influential defenders anyway (in that group of Santamaria et al.).
Not sure if I could change them @PDG1978, but I was reviewing my own notes and based on their dimensions for their own ages I think I should place Andrade instead of Djalma Santos for the right-back position, finally. 01 - BUFFON, Gianluigi 02 - ANDRADE, José Leandro 03 - MALDINI, Paolo 04 - BECKENBAUER, Franz 05 - FIGUEROA, Elías 06 - BARESI, Frank 07 - MESSI, Lionel 08 - DI STÉFANO, Alfredo 09 - CRUYFF, Johan 10 - PELÉ 11 - MARADONA, Diego
Interesting this is before the World Cup took place. Cruijff is the only one of a smaller country - three to four times smaller as the next included country - to be mentioned here losing it out against Pele for the first XI but in the 2nd XI by that point. The only one to break the 'cartel'. This matches well with the Sports Illustrated article from the very same month: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-17#post-37550709
---------------------Messi ----------Cruyff-Pele-Garrincha ----------Beckenbauer--Falcao N.Santos-Baresi-Figueroa-D.Santos --------------------Yashin
For a long time Andrade was a difficult player to classify for me in a modern role, but I finally would be quite comfortable with defining him as a modern type of hybrid among 60% of wing-back and 40% of box-to-box midfielder. I think he played mainly in right blue and white triangular areas:
Thanks mate. I think that is the 10th vote, so I might do a count-up within the next hour now. I'll put Baresi down as #5 (covering defender) unless you make it known you saw Figueroa in that role in their partnership.
Current First XI and Reserve XI (copying the 1974 results from Venezuela in that respect, but not going with a 2nd Beckenbauer) First XI: #1 Buffon (5 votes) #2 Alves (4 votes) #3 Maldini (8 votes) #4 Beckenbauer (5 votes) #5 Baresi (4 votes; 6 overall as CB) #6 Figueroa (3 votes; 5 overall as CB) #7 Messi (6 votes) #8 Platini (3 votes) #9 Cruyff (3 votes) #10 Pele (5 votes) #11 Maradona (5 votes) Second XI: #1 Yashin (3 votes) #2 Krol (2 votes) #3 Facchetti or Nilton Santos (1 vote each) #4 Rijkaard (3 votes) #5 Scirea (2 votes) #6 Moore (1 vote) #7 Garrincha (1 vote) #8 Xavi (2 votes) #9 Van Basten (2 votes) #10 Di Stefano (0 votes, but 2 as #8 and 1 as #9) #11 C.Ronaldo (1 vote) Top voted overall so far: 1 - Cruyff (10 votes) 2= Messi, Pele (9 votes each) 3= Beckenbauer, Maldini (8 votes each)
I remember in 2010 this was a similar project in which I got involved with very similar results in the same formation idea (with the exception of Yashin and Puskás instead of Buffon and Messi for obvious reasons, 9 and a half years ago). 2010 YASHIN FIGUEROA ----------- BARESI - ANDRADE ------------- BECKENBAUER ------------- MALDINI - DI STÉFANO ------------ PELÉ --- MARADONA --------------- PUSKÁS ---------------- CRUYFF --- 2019 BUFFON FIGUEROA ----------- BARESI - ANDRADE ------------- BECKENBAUER ------------- MALDINI - DI STÉFANO ------------ PELÉ --- ---- MESSI ------------------ CRUYFF -------------- MARADONA Obviously there was and is a bigger intention to include the greatest players (in a personal idea) than to put together the best functional system (especially without a specific rival). Always on that same system I would have many players in mind for different tactical presentations and according to different points of view. I would shorten it as much as possible in this way (considering them only in one position): Goalkeeper BUFFON, Gianluigi ZAMORA, Ricardo YASHIN, Lev Right Centre-Back FIGUEROA, Elías NASAZZI, José DOMINGOS da Guia SCIREA, Gaetano NESTA, Alessandro Left Centre-Back BARESI, Franco MOORE, Bobby KROL, Ruud PASSARELLA, Daniel Right Side-Back ANDRADE, José Leandro (Adapted) DJALMA SANTOS CARLOS ALBERTO VOGTS, Berti THURAM, Lilian DANI ALVES Left Side-Back MALDINI, Paolo NÍLTON SANTOS FACCHETTI, Giacinto JÚNIOR ROBERTO CARLOS Libero/Anchor Midfielder BECKENBAUER, Franz PESEK, Karel MONTI, Luis RIJKAARD, Frank Right Inside-Midfielder/Forward DI STÉFANO, Alfredo (Adapted) SCARONE, Héctor MEAZZA, Giuseppe MORENO, José Manuel ZIZINHO BOZSIK, József DIDI KOPA, Raymond EUSÉBIO FALCÃO, Paulo Roberto PLATINI, Michel GULLIT, Ruud MATTHÄUS, Lothar XAVI Left Inside-Midfielder/Forward PELÉ JAMES, Alex SASTRE, Antonio PEDERNERA, Adolfo SCHIAFFINO, Juan Alberto PUSKÁS, Ferenc SUÁREZ, Luis CHARLTON, Bobby RIVERA, Gianni RIVELLINO, Roberto ZICO LAUDRUP, Michael BAGGIO, Roberto ZIDANE, Zinedine INIESTA, Andrés Right Side-Midfielder/Forward MESSI, Lionel MATTHEWS, Stanley GARRINCHA Centre-Forward CRUYFF, Johan SINDELAR, Matthias SÁROSI, György MÜLLER, Gerd VAN BASTEN, Marco ROMÁRIO RONALDO HENRY, Thierry Left Side-Midfielder/Forward MARADONA, Diego (Adapted) BEST, George RONALDINHO CRISTIANO RONALDO
This is a very bad list, as usual. E.g. the individualistic Baggio is under no circumstance or whatever system an option for an all-time XI, it doesn't make sense, and then there is also the classic ploy to classify Cruijff as center forward while a Zico is midfielder.
I don't have it clear in my mind what my choice would have been in 2010, though it's possible I posted a team on here that year...and possible I changed it the same year! I think now is about as settled as I've been on the choice I'd make, as it's always a tricky question with many options, so I guess that's partly why I thought this thread could be a good idea. I would have more options if I picked a different system (as you allude to for yourself - it would be different picking Bozsik as inside right midfield/forward compared to Eusebio for example of course...but on the other hand categorising Bozsik as DM and Eusebio as striker as I did in the guidelist attempt isn't definitively correct or the only option, or fully representative of their normal roles perhaps - I ended up with mostly quite attacking #8s in the guidelist but given the options for #10 maybe that was always likely), but for a Christmas Tree maybe I only consider these closely for the first XI myself currently: #1 Yashin, Schmeichel, Banks #2 Cafu, Carlos Alberto #3 Maldini #4 Beckenbauer, Neeskens, Rijkaard #5 Baresi #6 Moore, Beckenbauer #7 Pele, Messi, Best #8 Platini, Di Stefano, Charlton #9 Van Basten, Pele #10 Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane, M.Laudrup #11 Maradona, Pele, Best, Cruyff I don't say at all that others aren't valid or feasible choices, even in a 4-3-2-1, but those are the ones vaguely in my mind. Some are a stretch in terms of really considering (Laudrup who I put as #11 in the guidelist anyway would be a stretch for #10 or #11 to be fair, Charlton I'd be unlikely to be picking ultimately I think too, and probably Zidane also). In the Christmas Tree I felt Cruyff deeper than Maradona would be the choice, but tweeking slightly to allow #10 more freedom maybe I'd consider swapping them for example, with Cruyff as supporting forward from left of centre.
Regarding Liverpool's rather odd numbering in the 70s/80s (#5 shirt for midfielders, #11 for a central midfielder like Souness) I did a research because it was quite unusual for English teams to stray away from the established numbering in those years. The seed of Liverpool's odd numbering came in 1973-74. In that season, Larry Lloyd wore #5 and Emlyn Hughes #6 (the two central defenders wearing the traditional shirt numbers associated with the positions). Young Phil Thompson, a good man on the ball, started out as a midfielder and thus wore #4. In February 1974, Larry Lloyd got injured and played his last game. Bill Shankly moved Phil Thompson back into defense. But instead of giving Thompson Lloyd's #5, he gave it to midfielder Peter Cormack (who had been wearing #8 most of the season). Maybe Thompson was superstitious and wanted to keep his number 4 we'll never know. Cormack carried the unusual #5 over to the next season (though sometimes also got back to #8 when Phil Boersma was playing, who was then wearing #5, also a midfielder). Cormack stuck to #5 in the following season 1975-76 as well, but he didn't play that many games anymore. When Cormack left Liverpool for good, the #5 shirt was given to Ray Kennedy, who until then - "correctly" - had mostly worn #10. But the #10 was in turn given to new signing John Toshack. #11 was Ian Callahan's number. This tradition of a midfielder wearing the #5 shirt carried over to the 1980s and probably beyond. Graeme Souness was famous for wearing the #11 shirt during his Liverpool days (but not for Scotland!). Definitely not the "right" number for a central midfielder like him. Souness always had #4 as his shirt when playing for Middlesbrough before joining Liverpool in 1978. But at Liverpool, the #4 had been Phil Thompson's number since 1973. Thus Souness was given the #10 shirt when he arrived at Liverpool (which should have been Ray Kennedy's number in a traditional British numbering). #10 in 1977-78 was mostly shared between David Fairclough and Terry McDermott in that season. When Ian Callahan left Liverpool during the 1978 season they gave Souness the #11 and McDermott got back to #10. And that's how it stayed for many years!
To be fair, I don't think there's any real malice in this particular classification. Most people are aware that they performed similar role. However, in this particular context, Cruyff can compete for both no.10 and no.9 role because he is perfectly capable of playing as a false 9 (I know I considered him for that role) while there's nowhere else for Zico.
Can't you just refrain from making dismissive comments like that? "Very bad list, as usual". I find it irritating to see a poster constantly picking on another poster like you do with Peru all of the time. It's perfectly fine to argue your point as you usually do but it is unnecessary to do it in a spiteful way.
Yes, I think anybody that gives Cruyff the #9 shirt and puts him in the centre of attack in this thread has enough historical knowledge to know that it does not mean that he's expected to act like a tank or whatever. That is certainly not a "ploy" to diminish Cruyff as a footballer. Everybody knows that he's expected to play as a false 9 in an all-time XI. I did the same in my team and that is owed mostly to manage as many offensive all-time greats in the starting XI as is feasibly possible. With Pelé as #10 it is obvious both players would interchange positions all of the time, a very fluid system with no fixed positions for any of the offensive players.