Congratulations KyleP . I'm surprised about some results but not too much about the last 3 or 4, but as always, a very narrow challenge! Actually, I've still the impression at this time I built maybe a better team than the last All-Time Draft when I finished as second . Obviously, the most were disagree by the votes and I'm really curious about your impressions. At your point, I'm not sure why do you think Henry and Rummenigge couldn't work, in contrast I think would be a very impressive pair in front because the abilities to be flexible by the sides to the penetration of Di Stéfano and Moreno, both of them being gifted with the ball at their feet, their impressive goalscoring production and the form how they could recept balls from the midfielders. I'm going to try to publish my own ranking with some explanations also in these days .
Peru, do you still have my ranking and are you ok to list it now? If not I'm sure people will trust me (I haven't rigged 16th position surely ).
PS, Peru I cut your quote a little short so I could leave out a smiley without removing it from 'congratulations KyleP' cos I wanted to include the winkey icon in my post! If you were wondering.... About your comments on your team - as you know I ranked it third and I do rate it ahead of your last Sheep Draft team (the first Sheep Draft team of yours might be a close call as might your Auction Draft team because I still think all of our teams in that draft were especially good as might be expected to an extent). I sort of get why someone might question Henry and Rummenigge together like you have them with Henry coming from deeper and wider than Rummenigge but obviously I didn't see it as a huge problem because I still ranked you near the top. I think both players still ought to perform very well although perhaps other combinations in the draft would seem like more of a perfect fit.
1) Kylep 2) Akoeber 3) Peru FC 4) Cevno 5) Frasermc 6) Excape Goat 7) Comme and Benni 8) Triton 9) Schwuppe 10) Burco 11) Cr7torossi 12) dor02 13) PDG1978 14) Y.o.n.k.o 15) lanman 16) man_in_the_middle 17) Johno You?
Bit incomplete since I didn't have the time to complete the valuation which was supposed to be broken down in 3 rounds. R1 comme akoboer excape karloski peru kyle schwuppe triton cevno johno dor fraser pdg lanman yonko mitm burco R2 akoboer comme peru excape lanman dor karloski johno fraser cevno kyle mitm PDG schwuppe yonko triton burco R3 looking at the final rankings, I am way off on some people. I would like to think that it would have been rectified to some extent if I would have finished my ranking. If anyone is interested in the process behind these rounds, I could sketch it out a bit.
My ranking. 1 Kyle P 2 frasermc 3 Akoebar 4 Excape Goat 5 Triton 6 benni/comme 7 burco 8 dor02 9 cr7torossi 10 Schwuppe 11 man in the middle 12 Karloski 13 Peru FC 14 johnno 15 Cevno 16 y.o.n.k.o. 17 PDG1978
Right, well here are my rankings. No one take it too personally, it was pretty hard, given how close it was between most of the teams: 1) frasermc - A nice balanced formation, with two tough defensive midfielders and a pair of quality fullbacks. Having Pelé was obviously a huge plus but the presence of Rivelino and Kopa alongside him were what really set this team apart from the rest. The only area of slight concern was the quality of the centre-backs but that wasn't enough for any other side to knock them off top spot. 2) burco - Again, I thought this formation would work well and I liked the combination of Maradona and Romario. Overall though, there wasn't quite as much quality in this side as Fraser's. Gamarra was the obvious weak-link. 3) Akoeber - Really liked this team but just saw them as slightly weaker defensively compared to the two above them. 4) man_in_the_middle - At first I wasn't quite sure if this team could work well together but then I sort of imagined them playing a similar style to the Dutch side from Euro 2008 and the 2010 World Cup and started to warm to it a bit more. Ultimately though, not could as good quality-wise as those teams ranked ahead of them. 5) Karoski - I commented earlier how I could see this team working a bit like Ancelotti's Milan side, although there were a few areas of concern, such as the lack of pace and Janes not really being an attacking full-back, for example. 6) Excape Goat - I really liked the formation and the presence of Zico and Matthews was a big plus. I'm not a big fan of Riva however and just felt that the rest of the side was missing some quality compared to other teams in this draft. 7) Perú FC - Some very good attacking players but it seemed like there was a bit of a log jam of talent upfront, which left the side very exposed defensively. On the subject of Henry, I feel he's shown in his career that's he's better played as the main striker in the side, who can then move out wide to the left wing when he so chooses. 8) cevno - Much like Peru's side, there were some great attacking players here but it just seemed like it was a bit of overkill and needed to be more solid defensively. I also thought some of the players where a bit miscast. If I were setting things out I would have played Figo on the right, Cruyff on the left, and Meazza in the hole behind Sindelaar. Sindelaar and Meazza also seemed a bit too similar in style to me and I didn't really think it necessary to have both in the side. It'd have been to have swapped out one of them for another holding midfielder or even a pure striker in the mold of van Nistelrooy or Papin for example. 9) cr7torossi - It was nice to see the likes of Baggio, Gullit and Baresi in this team but I really didn't see how the forward line was going to work together. There weren't really any genuine wide players and I thought a really fluid, attacking side could quite easily expose the defence. 10) Schwuppe - In retrospect, seeing this team's final position, I do think I was a bit harsh ranking them and I probably would have placed them quite a bit higher if we had to redo things. I simply thought the defence was pretty poor compared to a lot of other sides in the draft and also that Zizinho and Socrates should have swapped roles. 11) Comme & benni - Again, I was probably a bit harsh ranking this team, though at the time it just really didn't stand out to me as anything special. My main concern I think was having Alex James playing in that expansive role, which I felt he wouldn't have been able to carry out as effectively as some of the other players in the draft, although now I feel I was probably underrating him quite a bit. 12) Triton - I wanted to like this team but the quality of defence was an obvious weak spot. Someone like Rivaldo would often be pulled out of position having to compensate for the lack of presence at the back and thus a lot of the offensive spark would be wasted. 13) y.o.n.k.o - I think I rated this team a bit higher than others because I really liked the partnership of Muller and Zidane. However I can see perhaps why others ranked it last and do think that it's really not necessary to have Zidane, Giresse and Iniesta all in the same side. I actually much prefered the alternate formation (with Stoichkov to the left of Muller and Iniesta on the right) to the primary diamond midfield formation given. 14) dor02 - I felt this team was lacking something a bit through the centre and would have been easily outplayed there by other teams in the draft. Rossi was really not needed either and seemed like more of a hinderance than a help to the way this side would have been setup. Ultimately, I thought it would have been wiser to have drafted another central midfielder instead and that way Jairzinho and Gento could played a bit higher up the pitch and given the side a solid base and dynamic attacking trio. 15) lanman - For me, Messi was the only real standout player in this side and that was the main concern. Like Excape Goat said too, I don't quite understand Mannion's inclusion in the side either. 16) PDG1978 - With the exception of Platini, this side seemed very low on quality in comparison to the other teams and I just saw the formation as a bit flawed and not really setup to get the best out of the players picked. 17) johno - Exactly the same concerns I had with PDG's team. Hope this rundown helped explain my rankings a bit better and I'll reiterate that I really did think all the teams were well thought out and setup. At the end of the day though, there has to be an order and this is just how I saw things when comparing the sides to one another.
I still have all the rankings available if anybody needs to check what they sent (probably you all remember or have it on record anyway). I won't reveal any further detail without permission in case anyone prefers not to reveal their rankings but I'm sure there's no harm in revealing all the first place votes just for interest - here they are: Peru FC: KyleP PDG1978: cr7torossi Excape Goat: Karloski Triton: KyleP Karloski: KyleP KyleP: frasermc dor02: cr7torossi lanman: KyleP Akoeber: comme&benni y.o.n.k.o: burco comme&benni: frasermc schwuppe: burco johno: KyleP burco: KyleP frasermc: Karloski cr7torossi: Akoeber man_in_the_middle: Karloski Cevno: man_in_the_middle And I might as well reveal my full vote now too (Peru can confirm it if he likes): 1) cr7torossi 2) Cevno 3) Peru FC 4) schwuppe 5) man_in_the_middle 6) Triton 7) KyleP 8) Karloski 9) dor02 10) frasermc 11) y.o.n.k.o 12) johno 13) Akoeber 14) lanman 15) burco 16) comme&benni 17) Excape Goat If I don't go into detail about the teams tonight I'll do it tomorrow but I'll re-iterate I really thought it was extremely close from top to bottom - if I had to split the field into groups according to my ranking I'm not sure if it'd be 2, 3 or 4 groups. The top 4 would be in the first group and I was deciding between the top 2 as my first placed vote. The next 3 are pretty much with them although I wasn't quite as convinced they'd definately match them in a tournament scenario for whatever reason and the following 3 (8 to 10 in my list) were for me in the same bracket overall although I felt I perhaps wasn't quite as expectant that they'd outclass the other teams - I still felt there were specific definate reasons why I placed them above the teams below though namely Karloski's midfield including the Matthaus/Neeskens duo, Pele of course the number one reason in fraser's line-up and likewise Eusebio for dor02 with a very good supporting cast. The other teams from 11-17 were all pretty much a match for each other IMO and potentially any team even I felt so they are no significant distance behind in my mind and the splits between those teams in my rankings are based on very marginal differences in my feelings about them. As for my own team I did like it a lot and I went with my own strategy which I half-expected could be seen as a bit too open to do great in the voting. I did feel I had quality players even at this level especially in terms of natural skill on the ball and invention but such players are of course not uncommon in these drafts. I expected I'd rate my team higher than a lot of others would and though I wasn't trying to score badly I did feel that the most embaressing thing would be to come first while I'm doing the organising so wasn't necessarily aiming to win votes although I couldn't help consider that certain players might be seen in a very positive way on Big Soccer eg Greaves perhaps although I rate him high myself and liked the idea of him in my team and some voters might not rate him as high as others anyway - I then wondered whether coming last would usurp coming first in embaressment though while the votes were coming in . I had Ardiles in mind from early on although expected to get a different option probably but when my preferred all-round midfielders were no longer available I thought I'd go with Ardiles and build the team around his partnership with Platini and the passing moves they could create between them and the other players. I guess including another box to box midfielder or holding-type player might've been preferred by some of you - instead of Ardiles or perhaps instead of Savicevic (balance IMO in attack would then not be as good although sometimes drafters can do ok with slightly unsymmetrical looking teams) or even instead of Dalglish? I did always think I might draft Savicevic in one of the later rounds but I do think in prime form he brings a lot to my line-up with his unpredictable creativity. In a way picking Sammer made me change plans as I wasn't really thinking of a sweeper system and moreso not as first choice formation until then but when he was still there in round 7 I decided to go for it. I would say to those at the bottom (eg johno and y.o.n.k.o below me) that I hope you enjoyed the draft and not to be disheartened to see your team at the bottom of the table - everyone has different opinions and you received some high votes so don't be put off taking part in other drafts like the Sheep Draft if that takes place again next year. That's always good fun and involves different sort of tactics in terms of second-guessing others etc.
Beckham's passing over distance either into space or to the man is well documented. He's the finest striker of the ball dead or live in his generation imo. Regardless, my instructions, were that he'd be covering in CM or as part of a 3 man system from time to time based on how attacks/counter-attacks work, but basically he was a RM who would pinch in and do work if needed, something he did for most of his career. He's not a winger, never was. What I did was give him specific instructions so that Rattin was never overwhelmed because our draft had so much quality in the SS/AM roles. Meh, not as bad as it seems. As I said, the gap for me between about 5th or 6th all the way down to 17 was tiny. Literally, on a scale of 110, it came down to 7 points separating 5-17. It was tight.
Nice write-ups. I'll do a more in depth one for my final rankings after the weekend as I'll only have time for sporadic appearances in between. What I will say though is I thought Johno's low ranking was fairly surprising. I realise that it was a very tight draft with little between the final overall positions but I thought he had a very solid side with good, concise tactics that made sense considering the players he drafted. I don't know a great deal about Byrne, who I considered a bit of a reach. And quite a few sides had a better focal point in attack than Ademir but other than that, I couldn't find many weaknesses. Obviously there is a sizeable Manchester Utd bias in the team but the players chosen(other than Byrne for me) were quality footballers and the instant understanding and cohesion they would have brought to his side would surely be considered as plus points. Still, as mentioned by others, it was a very strong draft overall where the smallest variables made all the difference in the end.
OK, here's my more detailed analysis of my vote. Like I did for the most recent Sheep Draft after I'd decided on the order I went back and decided which teams I felt had the best defences (including GK), midfields and attacks excluding my own team. I'm highlighting below where I felt a team was top 3 or top 6 in each category (top 7 for attack as I couldn't seperate the teams). This gives an indication of some reasons for my rankings but obviously I also looked at team chemistry, balance and suchlike. Some players contribute to both midfield and attack categories to an extent: 1) cr7torossi - I felt this team had a great combination of worldclass talent and balance and also was very promising in the same area I rate my own team very highly - it had a good mix of attacking abilities that brings variety to the teams play. Ideally all the players would be on top form, but in Gullit, Baggio and Ronaldinho in particular the team has plenty of scope for a player to be the star of the show/difference maker in a given game. I think the playing styles of the front 6 players are very complimentary too with the midfield pair generally able to sit behind the other four instigating moves with intelligent passes to players or into space to take advantage of the running abilities of Gullit and Ronaldinho. The team also has an out and out goalscorer in Piola who would take advantage of the many chances he'd be likely to get. Liedholm is an important player who'd need to be disciplined but I also appreciated the different ways cr7torossi set out the team to attack and the fact that Gullit could drop into the midfield more to form 3 players when defending. Perhaps the vulnerability in the team is that none of the stars are the sort guarenteed to put in a worldclass performance (I'm thinkng of the attacking midfield/deep lying forward 3 moreso than Liedholm or Baresi) and if Gullit in particular had a bad game or was struggling then the teams momentum and drive could suffer. I've not even mentioned the defence yet but it's one of the best IMO with a proven partnership in the centre including one of the greats in Baresi. I acknowledge the midfield pair isn't brilliant defensively but I see the benefits of their passing talents and ball control (Liedholm especially can dribble very well and adds another talent when he gets into the final 3rd) as outweighing any lack of extreme pace/stamina or defensive expertise and importantly the back four itself is very capable at this level and with Jennings makes up IMO a top 6 defence. I also felt the team had a top 3 midfield and top 7 attack with as outlined several of the players contributing a lot to both midfield play and the attack. For the reason that I felt the teams consistency should be good with the variety in the team and good chemistry but that the reliability in a single inportant game might be questionable I somehow felt the team might do better in a league scenario than a tournament but I felt it would still be as likely as any team to win a tournament. 2) Cevno - This was a very close contender in my mind for my number 1 vote. I felt the make-up of the midfield and attack could take several forms any of which had very good potential but I was awaiting the tactics as I couldn't predict which way they'd line-up. Guardiola and Robson are obviously the deeper midfielders but apart from them the team could line-up in several ways. Perhaps I'd have considered the team number 1 with a slightly different set-up but the one chosen still allows the players to excel I feel. I wondered whether Sindelar could use Meazza as a partner or alternatively Cruyff could've played as a false 9 wheras Figo might be best as a right winger but it's hard to say which set-up would work best and the one chosen does give Cruyff the freedom to star in a roaming attacking midfield role and Figo at his best was exceptional with his dribbling and creativity from the left side as much as the right or close to it. I think the team has a lot of fluidity and I'd expect players to be switching poistions and moving around quite a bit. It's perhaps hard to know whether I've under-rated or over-rated Sindelar and Meazza in comparison to more modern players but they surely would stand-out as great players in any company being the best of their era. Both have great skills and can score goals so I think the talent of the front 4 is a match for any team in the draft. The central midfielders support them nicely and I also think the centre-back partnership is a formidable combination with Stam's power and tenacity and Hansen's class and intelligence. Along with the famous 2-way Brazilian full-backs and Shilton I felt they made up a top 3 defence. I also felt the team had a top 6 midfield and top 7 attack. 3) Peru FC - I felt the potential of this team was huge with Di Stefano and Rivera supported by the all-round midfielder Edwards who'd be important all over the pitch. I do think maybe Henry is best more central occasionally drifting wide but he'd obviously be in prime form so would be more capable from the left side than he showed for Barcelona and it looks like he is playing more as an inside left than a winger. He scored numerous great goals for Arsenal running or dribbling into the inside left channel. Overall I think the setup is good with Moreno operating more from the right and Rummenigge a mobile player who can move around to get involved while also being an expert finisher in the striker position. Di Stefano and Rivera is a nice mix of talents. For some reason I'm slightly dubious as to how the great players might gel as a whole (I'm not always inclined to think this way but feel it more for this team than for example with Lamps>Gerrard's Sheep Draft team) - the passing abilities of the midfielders would help the pacy forwards to get chances surely but there might be questions over the tempo of play etc with a few big personalities. Di Stefano would most likely be heavily involved but he'd need his team-mates to be on his wavelength for the best results including him scoring plenty of goals himself. The only other possible flaw in the attacking play would be lack of wingplay although Rivera especially can dribble very well in wide areas as well as centrally surely. I still feel the team has a top 3 midfield and a top 3 attack. The defenders aren't impregnable but are capable as individuals and should form a decent unit. 4) schwuppe - Another team I felt was at the top level. The dual capture of Best and van Basten gives the team unmatched talent in terms of two individuals I feel. The Brazilians in midfield should gel very well too and I actually rated the centre-back partnership highly as I felt they'd form a good understanding and that Krol had the pace to cover for Hierro. I liked the plan to use Best from the left leaving van Basten as main striker and the Brazilians especially Socrates and Zizinho to support. The formation is pretty flexible and allows Best freedom with 4 midfield players. Those midfielders aren't the best in the draft at tackling or tracking back but can all help each other and would keep possesion very well while also having the imagination and skill to find the forwards. Top 3 attack. 5) man_in_the_middle - Interesting strategy that led to the capture of two all-time worldclass defenders which contribute to IMO a top 3 defence. The defensive play is further helped by Keane and Vieira although surely their chemistry is slightly volatile/unpredictable. Both are two-way players and IMO would need to be rather than leaving the front 4 to do all the attacking. Laudrup has licence to play freely with those 2 behind him and both he and Totti can exploit Cristiano Ronaldo's pace and goalscoring prowess with their exceptional passing. I do feel that Keane and/or Vieira need to provide other options running onto passes although Totti would take up good positions to score and Laudrup himself can get on the end of through-balls from others. The team is capable of intricate play as well as quick counter-attacks using Ronaldo. I would say also top 6 midfield. 6) Triton - I can't really fault much about this team at all as I feel it has a particularly good balance as well as exceptional individual qualities from the likes of Ronaldo and Dzajic to name two. Redondo is important in midfield and Netzer too would probably play from fairly deep but can get involved in one-two's etc from time to time. They can be a stable partnership that gives good service to the front 4 which looks flexible from it's standard formation with Dzajic and Rahn operating mainly as wingers but both being excellent coming more central into the attack. With Ronaldo in potentially unstoppable form and Rivaldo's unique talents I felt this team had overall a top 3 attack. Scirea is another notable player and fits well with Forster I feel. 7) KyleP - Having Rijkaard as box-to-box midfielder who could also play as a holding midfielder or drop back into defence to cover for Beckenbauer is a big plus for the team. Considering Beckenbauer's overall contribution to the team with the ball as well as the fact he has a man-marker alongside him in Gentile I rated the defence as top 3. There is a good mixture of passing ability, pace and goalscoring ability in the 5 ahead of Rijkaard too. Bican's prolificness at the very top level might be hard to judge but he's clearly a big goal threat with lots of pace. 8) Karloski - Wheras mitm went for defenders Karloski snapped up probably the two premier box-to-box midfielders in his first two picks which gives him a very competitive midfield. The setup of that midfield has its advantages and disadvantages (natural width isn't particularly evident but Hagi will roam around the width of the pitch and Neeskens is also a good enough all round player to use the wings as well as get into goalscoring positions centrally, while the engines and all round game of Matthaus and Neeskens compliment Masopust and Hagi's subtle qualities or in Hagi's case sometimes not so subtle if he gets the chance to shoot from 30 yards!). So overall, top 3 midfield and he also has a couple of prolific goalscorers with different qualities and one of the top keepers in Zoff. 9) dor02 - I felt this was a very good team all-round but of course Eusebio is the wow factor that means IMO the team has a real chance in any match. I felt Rossi is a very good match for him in terms of a striking partnership as he is capable of assisting Eusebio as well as vice versa when Eusebio bursts into wide positions or surges from deep. Antognoni is a top playmaker with the 'protection' of Monti in the two man central midfield and dor02 has also alternative plans which would allow Antognoni to get forward more. Lots of pace from the wingers and Jairzinho can score a lot of goals and a very decent defence with an all-time goalie behind them. 10) frasermc - Pele is obviously the key player and he'd be expected to be a prolific goalscorer and assister. He's unlikely to dissapoint! There are other exceptional talents in the team to support him though and Kopa is an unselfish provider who'd compliment the South American combination in attack. I liked the idea that Kopa and Rivelino would be playing inside a lot as well as outside and I appreciate the midfielders make it difficult to play through this team. I don't necessarily prefer to have attacking full-backs instead of playmaking midfielders myself but I see the setup can work that way and I'm sure Alves and Breitner would get back in place when needed. Perhaps there is a lack of pace in the centre of defence that some of the great players in the draft can exploit though the individuals are top markers/tacklers. Top 7 attack. 11) y.o.n.k.o - I feel he's unlucky to finish a few points adrift in this draft as the team is very competent all over with particular star quality from Zidane as well as the goalscoring of Muller. All areas of the team are top quality and personally I like the setup best the way he has chosen it with 2 strikers and a diamond midfield. If he's wanting to exploit the width of the pitch more he can switch it though so he's got good flexibility. Tardelli supports the other 3 in midfield well. 12) johno - I like the setup of this team with Hidegkuti playing as the support forward and Beckham switching between a central role and the right wing. There's a good mix of dribbling ability, pace and passing ability and if the Man Utd wingers did well together in the 90's/early 00's then having Bobby Charlton in with them only improves the potential of the midfield. Ademir might not be rated right at the top in terms of strikers but he's clearly a talent. Overall a very good team with I think a top 6 midfield. 13) Akoeber - This team is full of proven worldclass players too and two potential matchwinners in the Brazilian pair Garrincha and Didi who are proven to excel together. Perhaps others rate them higher than I do (and the team as a whole) but I definately appreciate the qualities they have. Schiaffino is a good link between midfield and Nordahl and as Akoeber pointed out did well with Nordahl at Milan. Nordahl himself is more of a finisher than complete superstar but will certainly take advantage of opportunities. The defence is generally competent and could stifle great players at times although Kaltz especially is perhaps a full-back better going forwards than defending and the central pair might be outpaced. 14) lanman - This is a team setup in a way which should bring the best out of the players including of course Messi. The attack has unbelievable pace as well as good goalscorers and any space left behind a defence could be easily exploited by the wing forwards and the passing ability of the midfielders. Overall to say it's an improvement IMO on the current Barcelona side with a brilliant goalkeeper too it seems low ranked by myself and overall, but of course this draft is full of much higher quality players generally than the current era (or obviously any individual era). Nevertheless, this side has the game to compete in any match potentially. Schmiechel may need to be alert when Koeman especially gets outpaced or dribbled around, but the Dutchman adds yet more exceptional passing from defence as well as being a solid defender generally. 15) burco - Clearly Maradona is a big threat and he is in an ideal role. Romario's partnership with him may be unpredictable and at times volatile but they're capable of cutting though any defence together. Figueroa and Tigana also stand out as world-class players for me and Briegel was someone I considered drafting around about the time burco took him in round 8. The French contingent should work well together and having Hamrin and Zagallo allows a 4-3-3 to be played. I felt both Zagallo and Fernandez were players that fitted well in the team and could facilitate the other players games, but individually they're not as talented as most players in the draft probably. Overall a very good team which I could've seen myself rank more towards mid-table potentially and with Maradona on fire could trouble anyone, and I felt it was another team with a top 7 attack. 16) comme&benni - I've already apologised to comme for the low rating and assured him I felt it was a worldclass team so the same apology to benni too! I think it shows the general quality of teams in the draft that I could rate it where I have, although nobody else did. It's exceptional in certain areas - Puskas, Yashin and the Brazilian full-backs are top quality even for this level of competition. Perhaps the trade-off for getting the Santos's and even Yashin early was restricting the attacking options to support Puskas although as the players chosen are all from early-era football I could under-rate one or all of Sivori, James and Orsi. I know they were certainly all quality players and have read about them and seen a little footage too including James scoring for Asenal! I probably felt despite Puskas's skills, goalscoring ability and teamplay this team might not score as many goals as some in the draft. The midfield duo is certainly solid, only vulnerable if players get the opportunity to run away from them into space. Both Coluna and Souness are good passers and capable goalscorers from outside the box too - possibly other players in the draft are more of the genius type in midfield or have more pace and/or dribbling ability from central midfield. Sivori from wide right cutting in would be interesting if maybe unpredictable. Overall despite the fact that Billy Wright has been part of England teams to suffer heavy defeats against teams containing some of the players in this draft which was a consideration I felt this team had a top 6 defence and that in comparison to other teams in the draft that might be it's strongest point although not because it lacks quality generally further forward. 17) Excape Goat - Sorry that I placed you last this time - I was preparing to say that you've had teams that were ranked right at the top before including your first Sheep Draft one which won and I along with everyone ranked as a top 5 team. However, this team has also ended up near the top anyway and I can understand that with such a closely matched field and the fact that with these all-time drafts everyone's opinions always vary a bit. In the last Sheep Draft I felt that when it was a tight call I couldn't rank the team with Zico in it last - however in this draft the teams directly above this team in my ranking include Puskas and Maradona! I felt that Stanley Matthews gave you a second truly exceptional player to compliment Zico and I think they could interact well together although I didn't get a huge feeling that they were a perfect match. I felt your team also had a top 6 defence and Charles should be considered a threat moving into attack if necessary too. On the downside I doubted the combination of Davids and van Hanegem a little in terms of fluency compared to other midfields - there's no reason particularly why two left-footed midfielders should struggle more than two right-footed ones but I did feel there'd be a tendancy to avoid moving onto the right foot for both players and it could hinder incisiveness. I also felt playing Overath as a left midfielder/winger means you haven't got a left winger or deep-lying forward/AM that might be a better dribbler from there, even though I felt Overath himself could make good cotributions to his potential in that role as you said he'd be coming infield and linking with Zico often. Matthews wing play and Zico/Overath's through balls to Riva provide good potential and mean that this team is pretty much equal with all those from towards the middle of my ranking too in my thoughts, but perhaps I tend to rate all of Overath, van Hanegem and Riva slightly lower than some do so cumulatively that has an effect in such a tight draft.
This is my list: 1. KyleP - The clear winner for me. A balanced formation with a defence that I really liked, including your defensive tactics. You mirrored well Barcelona's offense/midfield with a good choice of players that I feel could play together. The combo Gerson-Luis Suarez reminded me on the Xavi-Deco duo of few years ago. The only thing that in my opinion your team lacked, if we can say so, is a mastodont in attack. If you had a Ronaldo instead of Bican, it would be near perfection... 2. man_in_the_middle 3. Cevno 4. burco 5. schwuppe 6. frasermc 7. johno 8. comme and benni 9. cr7torossi 10. Akoeber 11. yonko 12. karloski 13. lanman 14. Excape Goat 15. dor02 16. Peru FC 17. PDG1978 [FONT="]For the rest in a day or two, when I have a bit more time. [/FONT]
I think I might have been hurt by people underrating Ademir specifically and possibly Byrne too. Byrne was there for several reasons and definitely one of them was the fact that he played for United, but I wanted players who had experience both as leaders and who had played multiple positions. It was specifically important in the back-line because I wanted Passarella to have the freedom to go forward at will. I fully agree with you that KyleP was the clear winner. In a way, I'm really glad that it was so obvious because I feel like while many of us may not like our final position (I'm a little peeved I'm 16th but not too much), I think it is key that we can agree on a winner. I can provide some details of my process after the weekend, but I wanted to say that I thought where several teams fell down was having too great a focus on attack or having no width. Against teams with great athletes, it is important to have balance and I felt that very few teams married having the width to stretch back-lines with the bite to sustain waves of attacks from quality opponents.
It looks like we're not going to bother with the voting threads for a mini-tournament as well but perhaps it might add interest to the discussion to talk about how we think the groups I drew might turn out and whether people think certain teams chances would be improved or worsened by being in the groups they are (in comparison to their position in our individual votes and/or overall table). Also, people might wish to suggest which formations they might use in particular games or which specific tactics might be employed (already mentioned or not) when playing specific opposition. As a reminder the groups were drawn as follows: A frasermc PDG1978 burco Excape Goat Cevno B dor02 schwuppe Peru FC Akoeber C lanman KyleP Triton cr7torossi D y.o.n.k.o Karloski johno comme&benni man_in_the_middle In theory if we were voting then maybe we couldn't vote within our own group and I haven't yet gone through and seen for definate which way the votes would go if they were the same as the overall votes exactly still but the final table might suggest the majority would expect fraser, schwuppe, KyleP and comme&benni to be the group winners with KyleP winning the final group.
Regarding the above post, of course it might complicate matters but we can all speculate about our own teams chances too in those groups wheras we wouldn't have been allowed to vote for them.
You are entitled to your opinion and you have made some fair points. I drafted Antognoni and Rossi because I have a fondness for them, especially Rossi. I don't think they are appreciated enough, especially on BS. I believed that I was making a stand by drafting them. I've been on BigSoccer for seven years and I felt that by not seeing them drafted in previous drafts was insulting to their legacies. I had only seen them drafted in the Italian Draft, which was around 2006. BS posters should show them more respect. Rossi was not a Schillaci. He was more than that. On the elegant players thread on the Players and Legends board, Antognoni has got a few mentions, even from English fans. That is not enough though. I could posted the line-up in a 4-2-4 formation but I thought that wasn't too necessary. I can tell you this. If I drafted another midfielder, it would have been another Italian. Sandro Mazzola or Giampiero Boniperti were other options. I had an anchorman and an attacking midfielder. I would have been more interested in drafting another AM and Mazzola was a complete player. His father too could have been another choice. There was a reason why I went for a team based on wing-play. My teams weren't getting votes because I has lacked wingers and they were too narrow. It looked like it made no difference. Even if I went for a 4-3-3, I would need to draft, more versatile players anyway. How you draft players who can fit into one system? You won't always get what you want. In my team though, at least Rossi could score from headers. I don't recall Eusebio scoring from headers. He had Aguas and Torres playing beside him. What really pisses me off if that teams who have less balance than my teams get more votes than me. I don't want to personally attack people but my sides in the drafts are more balanced than schwuppe's and I think people I blinded by the fact that he has drafted all those Brazilians. How would they react if he drafted Prohaska instead? He drafts great players but not all of them play in their natural roles. He isn't the only not to have unbalanced formations in previous drafts. Peru FC is a great drafter but even some of his players aren't in their natural positions. How can some of these concepts work? At least I'm realistic in the roles that my players play in. At least I don't assume, "Oh! This guy would be great in this role because he can do such and such!" How can you prove it? This is why I place my midfield like I did. Luis Monti never played in a modern 4-4-2 midfield. How can anyone believe that he could adapt to the system? I give credit to PDG1978 for finishing the draft. The previous drafts would never finish. I don't understand the ideas and the votes of some posters though. I might as well draft a team for the 2-3-5 formation just to take the piss. Do I have to draft a team full of Brazilians to get votes? My formation looked similar to Brazil's in 1958, didn't it?
For the guy who placed me second, thank you. For those who rated me last, do you know who Gento, Jairzinho and Eusebio are? Do you hate Antognoni and Rossi?
Thanks, and thanks to you for continuing the draft while you were in Italy and for being understanding when I felt the draft had to move on as scheduled when it had begun even though you lost out on Maradona as you weren't aware it was starting (sorry again, I think I'd mentioned the start date once before you logged on previously but in retrospect would've liked to make sure you had seen it to give you an 'equal' chance with potentially a good draw position although with 2 picks early then going first on pick 7 picking last or near to it had its own advantages). For my vote at least Eusebio served you well certainly anyway. I was glad I could give you a better vote myself actually but rest assured it was a genuine vote (after all fraser voted my highest vote on Sheep Draft 1, sent me a friend request and has PM'd me about Nottingham Forest etc so putting you just ahead of him was certainly based on merit according to my own assessment for example). I don't know whether everyone agrees but I think I'd vote all of these teams away from the bottom of a Sheep Draft vote if they were compiled in one of those drafts so it confirms that voting you 9th means I certainly rated your team very highly. And others did rate it higher still of course. I sort of understand your frustration at not yet getting a very high overall finish though you probably rate your teams right up there each time (my 6th in Sheep Draft 2 probably took the edge off the other not so good results so the fact this time I got voted 16th doesn't have quite the same effect plus I'm orgainsing so shouldn't be disentful I don't think). I guess when the margins are not obvious then everyone will have slightly different opinions and there's no specific way to please or impress the majority eg ASF rated your first Sheep Draft team substantially higher than I did but it's possible (not guarenteed btw) I'd rate your team for this draft higher than he would as it's perceived slightly more open (read 'free' or read 'risky'?). Sometimes some of us can lose out when trying a player in an unproven role (eg Baggio for me in Sheep Draft 1) even if we're pretty convinced in suits them well so it can work both ways but you made a valid point in that your players were unquestionably suited to their roles, with only lanman's team probably able to claim the same to the same extent. Anyway like me you picked a team you were pleased with yourself and drafted Antognoni and Rossi so hopefully it was worthwhile and you'll try again in the next Sheep Draft or other draft.
PS dor02, thanks for the rep by the way (and anyone else who's done so during the draft) - I'd written the previous response anyway before I saw it but as it was about my summaries I guess you were indeed happier that I'd voted you a bit higher and happy with what I'd said about your team. I think you voted me as high as you've done yet too so thanks for that and we actually agreed on the top two although just to show how these opinions are so individual and tight you then had the 3rd place team as the team I put last (although pretty much equal 11th with a lot of teams to be honest as the write-up suggests). I won't reveal your vote any further though as you might not be doing so yourself. cr7torossi's team was certainly another that had players in positions they're bound to play well in/proven in now I think about it and that balance (bearing in mind I'm not so insistent on out and out DM's as some voters might be) probably won him my first place vote because the teams I put close had slightly less proven balance in midfield and attack as did my own team to be fair although I obviously believed it would work well. Of course the number of Italians might've impressed you in his team but that's fair enough and you'd be right to think they're all really excellent players too (Piola is someone I've learned a bit more about this draft which is one of the good things about taking part in them - it increases your knowledge when researching your own picks possibly or other peoples teams). But yeah if anyone feels the need to attempt to double their rep then maybe consider organising one of these drafts .