2019 Week 15 MLS Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ptref, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. ptref

    ptref Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    06/05/19

    Montreal Impact vs Seattle Sounders
    Saputo Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Chris Wattam
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    06/06/19

    New York City FC vs FC Cincinnati
    Yankee Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein
    4TH: Robert Sibiga
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Ian McKay

    06/07/19

    Toronto FC vs Sporting Kansas City
    BMO Field (7PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: David Barrie
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Gianni Facchini

    06/08/19

    San Jose Earthquakes vs FC Dallas
    Avaya Stadium (3:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Corey Rockwell
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Philadelphia Union vs New York Red Bulls
    Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Eric Tattersall
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Colorado Rapids vs Minnesota United
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Victor Rivas
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS debut for Eric Tattersall
     
  3. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    Slow week. International break?
     
  4. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Yes, the international break / Gold Cup break is slowing the game schedule down. I believe there's a full two-week MLS break after this weekend.
     
  5. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    Two PKs given last night via VAR, both to Kansas City.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/197319

    The foul seems soft and was embellished by the KC attacker. I don't think this gets awarded if it is clearly inside the PA but then Fotis got screwed by VAR taking a look and deeming it inside.

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-vs-sporting-kansas-city/details/video/197339

    Not sure how this took so long to decide upon but the decision was correct. I'm not sure whether a yellow was necessary as it didn't seem reckless imo.
     
  6. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    For the second one, I think the yellow is for DOGSO. The attacker is 1-on-1 with the keeper and it is an attempt to play the ball but a foul was committed.
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The first foul seems soft, but I also have little sympathy for the player who got their hand up on the opponent close to the neck. That said, once it's called, and the VAR has clear evidence that it was inside the penalty area, the only correct result here is to give the penalty UNLESS there is also evidence that the foul call itself was a clear and obvious error, which I would have to say is not the case.

    The second one I thought was a foul, but I remain unconvinced that play on was clearly and obviously wrong. I even thought the review was going to be for a foul by the goalkeeper going into it. Once the penalty is given against DeLeon, though, the yellow is academic for UB-DOGSO.
     
    jarbitro and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    You can tell by Bazakos's body language he didn't want to give either penalty kick, but once you go to review it's practically impossible to not give the. especially the first one.

    The first one is a classic example of two wrongs making a right in the pre-VAR days. Probably not enough contact to give a penalty kick, but people accept it if you give it outside the penalty area.

    Instead you go to review and you award the penalty, and you get a whole bunch of dissent. Another of the countless examples where VAR isn't making the game better.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not Week 15, but USOC is in full swing. I realize that throwing younger/newer referees into the first MLS round of USOC is a lot less fair to them than it used to be, given VAR isn't in this competition.

    Now you have "amateur" referees in the eyes of the players who aren't only not as good as those in MLS, but they can't even correct their mistakes like the MLS guys can. In order to effectively manage a match, the aspirants now have to referee at a level even better than the guys they have to join.

    Along these lines, unless there's a better replay, Dopka gave a really bad PK in favor of Chicago against St. Louis. I suppose the good thing for him there, at least in the moment, is that it wasn't against the MLS team. But still, it was a dive. It looked so bad that I would honestly expect the AR to intervene and tell him he needed to reverse the call (and be in his ear, if possible, before the call).

    https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...louis-fc-vs-chicago-fire/details/video/197745
     
  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    There will be a lot of issues for US Soccer when they decide to implement VAR on Open Cup games.

    A lot of MLS teams don't play some of their Open Cup games at their home stadium. They usually move to a smaller facility to get a more intimate environment since fans don't attend Open Cup games that well. For example, FC Dallas played at SMU on a small college field last night. There might have been two cameras in the entire stadium. How would VAR work there? Where would you have the VAR booth?

    What happens if the lower division side is hosting the MLS team? These are all logistical issues that the English FA had with the FA Cup so it could be fixed.

    The biggest hurdle will be what officials to use on games if VAR is implemented on Open Cup games.

    Many Open Cup games until the semi-finals (sometimes even at the semi-finals) are locally assigned and don't use PRO trained officials. For the middles, the use of VAR will not be a problem as pretty much all middles that get Open Cup games involving MLS teams are part of PRO and have been exposed to VAR, plus even if you are using VAR for the first time as a referee is not that steep of a learning curve.

    The issue is with the ARs. Most of the ARs are locally assigned and many are grade 6s or nationals have never run a line with VAR and have no experience with delaying their flag for offside with VAR. We've seen it at the World Cups where ARs (who have been training for a month and have done countless professional matches) are taking the concept of VAR delay to extremes and sometimes with disastrous results.

    Imagine your local state referee who is doing his first or second ever professional game running a line with VAR with hardly any training on the use of VAR.

    The Open Cup (involving MLS teams) is a great training ground for developing officials and a great opportunity for referees to get exposure to high level matches. It is also the highlight for many referees who are simply not good enough to be regular MLS officials and could be the most prestigious assignment they will ever get in their careers (I know it was for me).

    If VAR is implemented on Open Cup games (I'm assuming it will happen next season or season after), US Soccer may be forced to use only ARs and officials trained and experienced in VAR which means your pool gets infinitely smaller.

    The last question is who do you use as VAR or AVAR? Some of the current full-time VARs and AVARs aren't even registered wtih US Soccer I believe. Plus, how do you train and implement instruction? I know US Soccer doesn't want PRO to have anything to do with the Open Cup.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think VAR in the USOC is years away. Several to many years. Perhaps longer.

    For all the reasons you point out.
     
  12. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm not sure about that. All it would take is something to happen this year and there could be groans and complaints.

    I think you're right that having VAR from say 4th Round and on is probably years away, but I wouldn't be shocked if they have VAR on the Final or semi-finals in the next two years.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, semis and finals are different. That’s possible. You could do very limited use if MLS clubs demand it.

    But you still have the risk of a lower tier team making the semis and getting a home match (slim, of course). And then there is the assigning issue—though at least referees would definitely have VAR experience.

    I just don’t think you can do much more than that, given all the factors.
     

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