2019 U-20 World Cup Roster Discussion

Those 4 games are important for the Union. They need results and McKenzie is an important player for them. So unless the U-20 WC provides significant additional exposure then there is no reason for the Union to prioritize it.

The way things are moving. The U-20 world cup is increasingly a competition of young pros who aren't good enough to start in Europe. To be frank, I think that the U-17 world cup is a much better place to scout. And that's pretty much how it's panned out, right? All our best are thoroughly scouted before they're 18 and can't make the U-20 WC. That's also the way it is for all the other countries. If anybody is thoroughly scouting the U-20 WC it will be MLS teams picking through to get some jewels that the big European teams didn't notice.

MLS OTOH is a competition were about half the players on the field have significant European experience. Those players have years worth of stats attached to them. Each time a young player competes against those guys they are competing against well known values. Increasingly, it's becoming a league where South American players go to prove their worth to Europe. Last year's record breaking sales to Europe will only be the tip of the iceberg.

 

A mandatory release policy is tough because not all U-20 players are equal.

In this case, i think Philly should release McKenzie because they have Jack Elliott.. The drop off isn't huge. The Red Bulls were able to win the Supporters Shield while allowing Tyler Adams and Tim Parker to miss games in June to play with the USMNT in meaningless friendlies.

But policies, by nature, need to cover hypothetical situations.

What happens if there is a U-20 eligible player who is leading the league in scoring - and also imagine if that player's backup isn't good - and imagine if the standings are tight. Taking that player away for 4 games dramatically affects the standings and a team's chance at the playoffs.

I think teams should make every best effort to release players for youth World Cups. But if there is a likely scenario that it could completely derail their playoff hopes (especially under the new format when securing homefield advantage is important), then you shouldn't put a team in that situation either with a binding policy. They are the ones paying these players. It's not fair to the club, its paying supporters, or the rest of the team either to adversely affect your team like that

 

By the way, we've had plenty of Euro teams not release players for the U20 World Cup even though they don't have first team games ongoing. Our Schalke players like McKennie weren't released for the last U20 World Cup.

MLS clubs have the right to not release players for youth tournaments just like Euro clubs don't. Its completely up to them. Over the course of the league's history MLS clubs have overwhelmingly released their players. I bet we have virtually a 100% "release rate" for U17/U20/U23 tournaments.

So this has essentially been a non-issue. Maybe some negotiating between the USSF and the MLS club has to take place (we'll release him to event A if he's not called up to event B later in the year), but it has almost always worked out. Imagine how many MLS games a player like Landon Donovan missed over the course of his career due to international callups to assorted USYNT/USMNT games. A tooooooooooon.

I would say we've had a much harder time getting players released from Euro teams that don't even have games to play than from MLS teams with actual conflicting games.

But the day was going to come when an MLS team refused a call-up. And maybe we've hit it this time. We'll see.

 

The schedule for the U20 WC has moved around. Yes, when it is in their league season, Euro teams have not released American players. Do German teams release German players? The U20 WC is not historically more important than the U19 Euros for UEFA teams. It has become more lately for some.

Philly can see this coming and they could sign someone to provide depth. They probably need to anyway. 3-4 games is not a big deal.

German teams generally release German players for U21/U19 camps during the season. Mahmoud Dahoud is usually with a German YNT during FIFA breaks and he is a regular rotation starter for Dortmund.

I think there is more of an emphasis with Bundesliga teams to release their German players for all levels. But I doubt that extends to ex-pats in their teams.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response; always appreciate your opinion.

I think a general policy could be put in place. A club could always then negotiate with USSF if circumstances arise. If Elliot goes down with an injury, then Ramos could leave McKenzie off the roster. This would keep a policy of mandatory U20 releases from MLS in place but with Ramos more in control. Could a U20 coach abuse that? Sure, but MLS and USSF are so intertwined, I don't see that happening. Also, again, if an MLS team can't lose a U20 player for 3-4 games in the first half of the season, they have really planned poorly.

We have seen time and again, playoff hopes rarely die in May/June.

MLS is single entity and really the club doesn't exist. It could be seen in MLS's interest to have McKenizie on the U20 squad even if it is not in Philly's interest. McKenizie's transfer will effect the cost of future transfers. MLS is paying McKenzie's salary, not Philly too.

 

Shrug.

The truth is we're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Name one instance in the history of MLS in which a youth player hasn't been released for a major U17/U20/U23 tournament. It hasn't happened as far as I know.

It may or may not happen with McKenzie or other players this time.

I remember a few cycles ago in which DC United starting threatening not to release Perry Kitchen. What did they do in the end? They released Perry Kitchen.

The "release rate" is such that I suspect there's some sort of "behind the scenes" unofficial agreement between MLS and the USSF that such players should be released. The USSF and MLS brass collectively understand that a high profile, great result at the U20 World Cup or Olympics..................raises all boats.

 

It will happen this time with someone. I'm not really even arguing it shouldn't. I'm just saying it would help Tab out to know as far in advance.

it is in the interest of the team to release for the U20 WC. I doubt any MLS team kept a U17 WC player because they were most likely not a VIP for them. MLS teams rarely play domestic U23 players for major minutes; much less U17.

I think the fact Tab went public with it shows that it is a big deal, to him at least.

 

Of course it's a big deal to Tab that his best players are available!

And of course MLS clubs are gonna want to do more than "shrug" when a European club declines to send some dude playing U19 matches while they're getting stick for wanting to hold back guys who start for them.

 

He still has months before he needs to release the roster. Plenty of time to negotiate with clubs.

Worth noting that it wasn't Tab that discussed the club and player in question. That info came from elsewhere.

I suspect that for all youth camps and tournaments, the USSF and its coaches are in a constant dialogue with teams. There's nothing unusual here.

I expect that at the end of the day Tab gets who he wants from MLS.

If he doesn't, he doesn't. That's OK. It really isn't that big of a deal. That means an opportunity for another kid. Maybe like Julian Araujo of LAG, who might benefit from the stage.

 

So, if I think the Euro team holding the player back is bad for the player and US soccer, then I have to excuse MLS for doing the same? Why wouldn't I also think the MLS team is acting in bad faith too? I think I'm with Ramos that your domestic league has a greater obligation to developing domestic talent than foreign leagues. De Koeste recently said the same thing. I know the Bundesliga feels that way about German players. MLS can do what they want, but why do I have to give them a pass? Because Schalke wouldn't release McKennie for the entire tournament (they would have released him after he was done with them)? Sounds like two wrongs make a right thinking.

 

I think we have beaten this to death. But while it might not be a big deal, and will work out for another kid, and Ramos can probably get by, it hurts McKenzie (or whoever it was).

 

MLS clubs get as much shtick as stick, at least here.

I would not conflate two very different situations: playing/integral (reasonable/understandable) vs not-playing/marginal (spiteful/horrid).

 

You don't have to think or not think anything based on stuff I post, I promise.

 

Stop, you know your posts are compelling!

 

The quality of play in MLS is higher than that in a U20 World Cup. Just my opinion. In 2015 our group stage at this event was New Zealand, Myanmar, and Ukraine. Hello. We've played tougher, but you get the idea. There's no Josef Martinez or Sebastian Giovinco in his prime that McKenzie will need to defend against at the U20 World Cup.

In the past I would have thought that the chance to be scouted at a U20 World Cup would be really important. Nowadays, Euro clubs have full-time scouts in North America. Exposure really isn't an issue.

I really don't think any player that's getting regular first team MLS minutes is "hurt" by missing a youth event. ANY youth event. A player like Carleton or Pomykal would as they're not getting MLS minutes as of yet. If Pomykal were to be withheld so that he could sit on the bench for FCD, that would bother me. But not a starting level player in MLS.

 

Don’t the youth tournaments pay the players unless they want to preserve amateur status?

 

This is certainly an interesting point. Clubs have as much autonomy as they’ve ever had under single entity. But it’s still single entity and if MLS sees a long term gain for releasing players. Do they overrule the clubs?

 

A very long interview about the U-20 team with Mr. Tab Ramos

Ramos discusses state of the U.S. U-20 team and looks ahead to Poland

 

What I really liked from the interview with Tab was his talk about a "culture of winning" within the program.

This is where I respectfully disagree with everyone who is so quick to say top players like Sargent, Weah, and Adams are "beyond the U-20 team."

My opinion on this is evolving and I really think there is a value towards always trying to do the best you can and really create a "winning culture" within all levels of U.S. Soccer. It starts with the youth.

Sometimes it isn't possible. I get that. Clubs don't always release players. But U.S Soccer should always try to ensure the best players play in these tournaments. Winning is contagious. When they get used to learning how to win at the youth level, they bring that to the senior level.

 

And the opposite is just as true: I really don't think any player/team is "hurt" by missing 4 MLS games. Being 1/11th of a team and missing 4 games out of 34, theoretically he's impacting the season by like 1%. If my math skills still exist.
And they get to play someone in his place!

That's like almost nothing.

 

If he said the same thing about Carleton, you wouldn't complain one bit. You're again threatened by a player that people perceive to be better than Carleton currently. And yes, Mendez and Dest were our two best players at Qualifying.

I don't think Mendez should receive a call up (and I doubt he will) until he's playing with Freiburg's 1st team, but it's not some hot take that Mendez will be playing regularly with Freiburg by the end of 2019. When he does that, he'll be getting a call up to the NT.

 

I also think that Ramos is projecting where Mendez may be if everything goes well. It doesn't hurt that Ramos believes in him not only because of his skill but also because of his desire. The Scuffed interview with Brian Kleiban https://scuffed.simplecast.fm/ffc4d4d7 is instructive. When Adam Belz asked Kleiban about his three recent products, Efrain Alvarez, Alex Mendez and Uly Llanez he said that of the three Alvarez started out with the most innate talent. Of Mendez he cited his desire, his work ethic. I'm not guaranteeing that Mendez will therefore be a lock future star. However, desire goes a long way in furthering whatever talent is there.

 

Great interview! I liked the part where Ramos was echoing my points about MLS having a policy of releasing players. How playing in big international tournaments is good for the player and the league.