2019 Canadian Championship

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Robert Borden, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #76 Yoshou, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
    I have no idea why there are claims about CPL’s playing style since they haven’t even started pre-season, have they?

    That being said, MLS’s playing style also wrecks a lot of “skill” play. Particularly when talking about players that are of lesser quality..
     
  2. Goaler

    Goaler Member

    Bristol City, Slavia Prague, Pacific FC, AS Roma, Atletico Madrid, Vancouver Whitecaps, Philadelphia Union
    England
    Apr 11, 2007
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Czechia
    I think it's pretty clear that the CPL is taking a different path than MLS, do you really think people are going to keep watching ugly footy, the league will die before it has even begun, they must go the skill route in order to make it, at least most if not all of the clubs are leaning towards skill, I don't expect to see any MLS style.

    That's what I'm talking about, CPL isn't going to play MLS style.
     
  3. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    No they aren't. Of the players we've actually seen play, most are guys who weren't skilled enough for MLS.

    The CPL teams are all expansion teams where the players actually have far less familiarity with each other than do the players on MLS teams.

    This is just nonsense.

    MLS teams get upset in the USOC when they choose to play B squads. In recent years the same thing has been true in the Canadian Championship; in the last nine years of the Canadian Championship, D2 teams have won three games (not series, just games) against MLS teams. In each case it was an MLS B squad that lost and then the MLS A squad won the return game.

    It seems unlikely that a league with ~$1 million salary caps will start dominating a league with ~$10 million payrolls. Especially when the Canadian MLS teams actually take the Canadian Championship seriously unlike many US MLS teams in the USOC.
     
  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he’s using a different definition of “skilled” than you are. I believe you are equating “skilled” to the overall quality of the player, while his definition of “skilled” is more about the playing style.

    His contention is that MLS teams play a more physical style game than he hopes CPL will. As an example, the EPL teams tend to play a more physical, more direct style og game than La Liga teams do. That’s perhaps not the best example since La Liga teams are generally on par with EPL teams quality wise, but his argument seems to be that a CPL team with lower quality, but playing a more skill based style will be able to beat an MLS team with better quality players, but playing a more physical style.
     
  5. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I'm going to pull this post over to here:

    If I had to pick a leader in the odds at this point, I would pick Montreal narrowly over Toronto. Maybe something like 60/40 just looking at those two. I'm not putting too much emphasis on their draw with DC but rather the fact that they have quietly gone 2-2-2 on a six game, season-opening road trip.

    Vancouver is early in a promising rebuild. Ottawa is 1-1-1 to open the season, so I'm not sure why you call them a mess, but they are a USL team which gives them little chance of winning.

    All this being said, the MLS teams don't enter the Canadian Championship until July and can't face each other until August or September. We'll have to see how things are looking closer to the day.
     
  6. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    For fun I was reviewing the all time records in this tournament for appearances and goals scored.

    It will take more than one year but, with the expanded tournament, I expect to see some appearance records changing pretty quickly. A CPL team making a long run could see a player get six or eight appearances in a single year which is double what most players have been seeing per year.

    In terms of goals scored, the extra games will presumably give a high scoring striker the chance to rapidly move up the all time goal scoring list.

    Finally, in most years a player has needed three goals to be the top scorer for the year. That could also rise as individual players see more games in a single year.
     
  7. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's like the MLB playoffs. Guys like Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones had way more playoff games than if the first playoff round had been the LCS.
     
  8. RocketRobin

    RocketRobin Member

    Canada
    Feb 3, 2007
    Toronto
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    April 21, 2019 My game report on League 1 Ontario Oakville Blue Devils vs PLSQ A.S. Blainville exhibition game in Oakville. Includes interviews with coaches and players. Should also interest York 9 FC fans as they will play Blainville in the first round of the Voyageurs Cup.

    The head coach of Blainville does answer questions on this year's Cup.

    http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports19/19l1o018.htm
     
  9. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Hard not to see Montreal winning this year's tournament. Way more depth on the Canadian side while giving them consistent minutes. The young Canadians win games for the team and outnumbers Americans recently.

    TFC? Plays 7 Americans vs 3 in the last 3 games. What ever going on on the developmental side is beyond me but more people are calling them "Team America"

    Montreal, definately favorite
     
  10. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    At this point I see Montreal as 60-40 favourties over TFC to win the 2019 Canadian Championship. I don't see it having anything to do with whether they are playing more young Canadians, however. I'm happy to see Montreal playing more Canadians but neither TFC nor Vancouver will have trouble maintaining their squads while complying with Canadian Championship Canadian content rules.
     
  11. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Those quota should be increased from 3 to 5 or 6.
     
  12. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    That is an opinion to which you are entitled but the minimum is three.

    To be fair, in most games the MLS teams played more than the minimum last year. TFC featured a high of seven Canadians in one match.
     
  13. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I still agree that it should be increased but slowly as the Canadian talent pool grows. I would suggest that it increase by 1 every two years until we match the requirements that the US teams have.
     
  14. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That would have been somewhat true before but with CPL starting 6 Canadians, I really don't see the justification not to raise the number on MLS squads.

    It's not about not having a good enough pool, it's about providing opportunities. Montreal are demonstrating it right now.

    Molinaro from Sportsnet explains it the best while providing context.

    • In MLS, each team is mostly made up of domestic players and is granted a limited number of international roster spots. U.S.-born players are considered “domestics,” whether they play on American or Canadian teams. But Canadians are only considered “domestics” if they play for one of three MLS clubs in their native country.
    • Because “international” roster spots are at a premium, U.S. clubs are hesitant to use them in order to sign Canadian players, who don’t have the same opportunities as their American counterparts in MLS. TFC, Impact and Whitecaps all boast Canadian players, but they are in the vast minority on their respective clubs, and only a small handful are starters or see regular playing time.
    It's not as simple as saying "they aren't good enough", not having a league, lack of minutes/opportunities and the current structure of MLS are part of that context.

    I truly applaud Montreal because they are showing what happens when you play young Canadians and give them opportunities. The other 2 should as well and raising the quota to 5 should be the goal.
     
  15. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Probably because it's a lot easier to find Canadians with enough talent to play in the CPL than it is to find Canadians with the talent to play in MLS.

    It's both, actually. As Canadian players develop, they are given opportunities on our MLS sides. They need to meet a certain level, however, before they get regular opportunities on the first team to further that development. The MLS teams have shown that they will give them that chance when they are at that level.

    This is where the CPL will be useful. It's like having a bunch more TFC II squads in that TFC II is full of young Canadians developing and aiming for a higher level. There are now many more spots for Canadian players to get that professional development and improve their skills to the point where they could start on an MLS team. (I'm not saying they will go to MLS as their skills improve. They could stay in the CPL as its pay scale presumably improves, too, or they could go elsewhere.)
     
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  16. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #91 Robert Borden, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    The pool is either weak or whatever the 3 teams are developing aren't good enough for MLS and I know MLS team that can develop good talent. Can't have it both ways. Can't claim that the 3 MLS teams are producing the best talents in the country but somehow they can't play in MLS.

    Maybe have yo do what Montreal does and actually let the 20 years old play and live with their mistake so they improve.

    Case...Shamit Shome had an atrocious match earlier this season. Normally, that would be it for him until the Canadian Championship...guess what. Garde didn't pulled the leash and let him play. What happened? He improved and scored.

    Are Shome, Bahiya, Choiniere that much superior to Fraser, Chapman, Okello and Daniels? No they aren't. They aren't given the same level of opportunity and being in MLS limits their opportunities overall, doesn't mean they can't play at that level... as Molinaro demonstrated...circumstances matters and it isn't as black and white as you say
     
  17. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Really? You are actually claiming that it is not more difficult to find Canadians capable of playing in MLS than in the CPL?

    Montreal doing well in two games while playing a lot of Canadians (sandwiched around a game where they didn't) does not extrapolate to consistent results in the league. That's just cherry picking data.

    All three Canadian MLS teams have played different numbers of Canadians with different degrees of success. All three are actually increasing the number of Canadians they play over time. I wish it was going faster but they are working with a higher talent bar than the CPL.
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #93 Robert Borden, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    I wasn't saying false to that. I'm saying that there is enough Canadian talent to fill MOST of the domestic quotas on Canadian teams.

    There's certainly enough talent here to start more Canadians than Americans on Canadian teams. Montreal and Vancouver do it. It's outrageous that TFC isn't.

    There's enough talent to fill key spots on Canadian MLS clubs and CPL spots (including projected expansion).

    TFC whole front office is American so they are the odd ones with 7 Americans consistently playing over 3 Canadians. I haven't seen that extreme at Montreal and Vancouver.

    You're also undervaluing what Montreal has been doing. Good or bad game, they stick with the young Canadians which was always the best way for them to improve. Now, teams like Montreal and Vancouver are waking up to giving more playing time to their young players instead of to buy their ways into the playoffs or deep into the CCL.

    It's just a more efficient way to go at it which is best for all parties and we're seeing the results with Montreal. I don't think it's as simple as "not enough" Canadians are good enough for MLS. There has to be a willingness to give the young players opportunities, which was sorely lacking in the past.
     
  19. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Ah, that makes more sense. :)

    Is it just the ratio of Canadians to Americans that you are concerned about? Or the ratio of Canadians to non-Canadians in general?

    TFC has more Americans that the other two Canadian MLS teams but the number of Canadians on the three rosters are 8, 8, and 11. Aside from a very small number of individual games, none of the teams use more Canadians than non-Canadians.

    It's not clear to me why it would matter that TFC happens to use Americans in their non-Canadian slots while the other two teams use more players who aren't Canadian or American.

    CPL sure. There are plenty of L1O players around and quite a few others who haven't been able to catch on above the USL level. In 2019 that's good enough for the CPL.

    MLS yes if you consider the total world Canadian talent pool. I'm not sure there's an up side to bringing someone like Jonathan David home from Belgium, though.

    MLS no if you consider what's been in the local development pipeline. Look at how many CPL players were in MLS systems and were let go. Could the MLS teams have invested further time in their development? Sure, especially if their highest purpose was to improve Canadian talent. But they're also trying to win games in a league where the bar to entry is above where those guys were performing.

    If you look at the history of Canadians in MLS systems, you'll see that each year a number are brought up to the first team. The best of these stick and the rest are let go after two or three seasons to make room for the next group. In fact, if you look at the Canadian MLS rosters, you'll see that almost all of the Canadians came up through the MLS teams' systems. That is player development but the numbers are small because there are only three teams and the bar to entry is high. A lot of guys are going to go through the mill to find the few who will stick.

    This is where the CPL is great. It gives a lot more spots for Canadians to develop. It also has a lower talent bar to be a starter so a lot more Canadian players are going to get full time minutes without their teams sacrificing results. This last is especially true because all the CPL teams are required to play the same number of Canadians (unlike the Canadian MLS teams which are playing against other teams that aren't).
     
  20. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #95 EvanJ, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
    I already knew that rule, but I hadn't thought about its impact. If a club has an "international" spot available and can afford Wayne Rooney, they will choose him over any Canadian. There aren't Canadians who will bring media attention to an American MLS club that signs them.

    Toronto leads the Eastern Conference in points per game, so it's hard to argue that they would be better if they used Canadians more. Montreal is good, and Vancouver has a horrible start.
     
  21. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #96 Robert Borden, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  22. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    The CPL makes it more interesting but it didn't need reviving as it was already done fine.

    Blainville sold out last year (and got fined because their fans were too rowdy!) so it is good to see tickets selling briskly again.

    Where are you getting your York info? I can't find anything about ticket sales on them.
     
  23. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Ticketmaster. Same for the CPL opener. Not much left. Seems like York 9 will achieve their goal at drawing at York Stadium
     
  24. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Thanks. I see it is now showing the ticket map. That wouldn't come up for me previously for some reason.

    Looks like about 500 left, not counting general admission, with a week to go. Fewer for the CPL opener. Both are good.

    The highest total attendance ever for the Canadian Championship is 114 360. That record will fall this year. Something like 180 000 would be quite doable and it could go up from there depending on what match ups happen.
     
    Robert Borden repped this.
  25. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #100 Robert Borden, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
    My early predictions after 2 weeks play in the CPL


    2019 V Cup Prediction.jpg

    Comments:
    1-I don't see L10 or PLSQ pulling an upset

    2-Ottawa Fury aren't USL Champioship top tier team. Some journalists (and I'm talking most skeptical about CPL) came around admitting that not only is the level not below USL-C, but could play against lower tier MLS.

    Valour FC is too good in comparison at midfield and adding Bustos with Petrasso & Hoyle upfront. They play much better football than Ottawa, which outside of defense, don't have much going for them. They won't be able to contain the high pressing team with much better offensive capabilities while I can't see Ottawa giving much trouble to Valour's mid and defense. Another reason why Valour has Halifax beat who reminds me of Ottawa but with more potential at mid and up front. (Hart has to start Gutierrez with Perea from now on along with Iida & Garcia.) Halifax are close to figuring it out.

    3-Cavalry played amazingly well and that chemistry is definitely working for them (Unbeaten in preseason). They are definitely strong defensively with an organized midfield playing a patient ball possession game, pressing high and effective at closing space rapidly forcing turnovers and provoking counterattacks and defense to commit mistake. They are a dangerous team on set pieces and will provoke lots of fouls in dangerous areas. York 9 looked out of gas halfway through.

    Pacific has the experience and firepower to break through: Haber is overdue to break out, Ben FIsk is the real deal, Nakajima-Farran adds experience and Verhoeven at midfield should have been in Vancouver with the Whitecaps...a steal for Pacific. Pacific defense corps is solid even without De Jong in Chung, Staro, Legault and Smith. Pacific like to play the possession game but have a bit more of creativity to get the ball to the forwards who can be a nightmare to defend against. If they figure out Cavalry, they have the edge.

    This is the hardest match up to predict...Pacific takes it.

    4-Forge has a huge striker problem and midfield has played below expectations. Defense has been hit and miss so far. I still maintain that on paper, they should be among the top teams but they need to be brilliant for more than 45 minutes and convert all those shots in the box into goals. If they do that and start playing well together, watch out for them in the Fall season with the addition of a great striker. Pacific, however has proved more consistent so far.

    They are beat against Pacific.

    5-FC Edmonton has built a very experienced roster who has some national team, MLS and NASL experienced while surrounding them with new guys from their academy. Paulus, who has been in charge of the academy since 2011, knows these guys and knew exactly how to build his roster and it showed against Valour. They showed experience, composure and were clinical at beating Valour on the road...one hell of an intimidating physical team that will be hard to break through and they take away the crossing game. I can't see York 9 solving them after what have seen after 2 games.

    6-Major upset...if there is to be one, this would be it. Pacific has the team to upset Vancouver in the battle of British Columbia. This prediction is based on what I've seen as of today and Vancouver has been very bad so far and Pacific has the team, talent and experience to upset them (as of today).

    Vancouver are still favorites overall and will have Crepeau, Cornelius, Henry and Tiebert, but Pacific will be a match and a difficult one at that if Vancouver don't turn around their game. Pacific offense will cause Vancouver problems and could force them to make plenty of mistake while their mid is very capable of matching this (sub-par) Whitecaps.

    BC Place could end up feel like home for Pacific on top of that. (Lots of fans are dying for an alternative and the recent scandal management by the team is inviting the crowed to cheer Pacific instead) also...who doesn't love Victoria & Vancouver Island. Pressure is on Vancouver while Pacific will be hungry with a lot of guys who will aim at making a point.

    7-Montreal are too good and deep on Canadian players who are more than enough to contain and beat Edmonton with Brault-Guillard, Shome, Choiniere, Jackson-Hamel, Bahiya and Pantemis who can compete against some of the best in MLS. This is a massive advantage allowing them to field a Quebec heavy roster and pretty much run with the competition while saving the foreign players for MLS competition. FC Edmonton or Pacific can't beat that.

    8-Ah...TFC aka #TeamAmerica! Hamilton, Osorio, Chapman, Fraser, Laryea and Morgan will see minutes on the 1st leg. Depending how well Valour does will determined how TFC approaches the second leg. As they have done in the past, they will focus on MLS until the return leg where Hamilton, Osorio and Morgan will start but 2 of them will get pulled for their MLS regular roster. Valour is no match, TFC goes to the finals

    9-If MTL gets a healthy Piatti by then, Montreal wins the tournament. They have the depth advantage allowing them to play both competitions and still play upper MLS level as they have demonstrated with a lineup playing up to 6 Quebec players at the same time out of 11. TFC will most likely have their main roster play both in short rest. Montreal wins
     

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