2019 Asian Cup

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
  2. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Quarterfinals

    South Korea - Qatar:
    IRMATOV (UZB)
    VAR: VALERI (ITA), AVAR: TAQI (SGP), FU (CHN)

    UAE - Australia: SATO (JPN)
    VAR: MAKKELIE (NED), AVAR: SHUKRALLA (BHR), RAMOS (MEX)

    All four QF referees coming from the R16 referees in a tournament with 30 referees -- a huge vote of confidence for these four. Ramos still sticking around as AVAR.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's one way to spin it.

    AFC brought 30 referees to its premier tournament. So far, the only people touching a whistle or the main VAR role are the referees they sent to Russia plus two Europeans.

    I'd say the appointments say more about the other 24 referees and AFC's lack of confidence than it does about the ones appointed.
     
  4. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it has to with VAR being a new initiative for Asia. They want the Euro guys there since they have more experience to assist with the Asian refs right?
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100%.

    My argument, from day one, was that AFC wasn't prepared to introduce VAR at this tournament. The fact they limited it to the final seven matches only, have to use UEFA officials as main VARs and--thus far--won't put a referee on a VAR match who hasn't had experience with it since 2017... validates that opinion.

    The AFC could have experimented with VAR at its U-19 tournament in November. Or the U-16 tournament in September. Or even the U-23 tournament last January (where, I would add 23 of the 29 AFC referees at the current Asian Cup were in attendance). It could have spent 2018 training and getting ready for full implementation. Instead it did so in a haphazard and partial way.
     
    Thezzaruz and gold4278 repped this.
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    jarbitro, Geko and Mani repped this.
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kim had what would be considered a difficult match and frankly a poor performance in the Saudi-Qatar Group Stage matchup. Some highlights are below but I'm sharing for a few specific reasons:

    https://streamable.com/rvstx

    The disallowed goal at 3:24 of video (58:13 match time) would make even a referee named Coulibaly embarrassed. It's a good thing Qatar won this match.

    5:12 of video (71:35 match time) is very interesting because it relates to an upcoming Law change. I have no idea if the AFC already decided to adopt this for the tournament or not, but you can see the referee insisting that a Qatari player exit at the closest boundary, rather than at the halfway line. It does not go well and I think it's safe to assert that any time saved was not worth it. As @RedStar91 said, just wait for this three-to-six times a match in Barca v. Real.

    The challenge/offside at 5:58 of video is also fun, but really the whole compilation is worth it.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What happened?
     
  9. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    UAE player caught an AUS player on the side of the knee, locked leg, cleats to the side of knee.

    Ref pulled a caution and showed it to the player sitting on the ground. No obvious VAR intervention.
     
  10. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It should be red, but unfortunately it’s not a VAR tragedy in the new era. Just take a look at what wasn’t given as red in Brych’s match the other day.

    It’s probably one of the more least discussed aspects of the implementation of VAR, but rather than increasing SFP reds it seems like VAR is decreasing them without actually reducing the type of challenges. Because referees seem more shy about going red when they have the VAR “fail-safe,” yet the threshold for clearly wrong is so high that you can’t really count it as a fail-safe. It’s unfortunate.

    The real scandal are the semifinal assignments. Beath probably deserves the first one. But the Qatar-UAE match ends up with Ramos—an exchange referee who has been poor—because the AFC has no one that is both cleared for VAR matches and politically acceptable (unless they had just thrown Irmatov in there again, I suppose...though he might be held for the Final now). Regardless, the limitations in place due to the very few referees cleared to work VAR are laughable.

    Even better, Valeri is VAR on BOTH semifinals. A UEFA referee brought in as an instructor is actually the main VAR for both semifinals (and probably the final?). This is Asia’s marquee tournament and they had so much time to plan for this.
     
    RedStar91 repped this.
  12. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    Dumb question on that clip and "straight leg + studs = red"... Could some consideration be given on actual bodily direction & force involving a straight leg w/studs and thus only cautioning white #3?

    I would miss it in real-time, but that clip looks to my untrained eye like white #3 was supporting his weight on his left leg while he kicked at then contacted yellow #7's thigh with studs and the leg happened to be momentarily straight. Not sure I see it as truly endangering yellow #7. Perhaps that's irrelevant for a red or I'm just blind.

    It just didn't appear to be like the usual straight-legged jump/lunge/slide that transfers body weight/force through the leg & studs into the opponent and endangering them.

    I'm likely wrong on several fronts, just trying to understand better. Thanks.
     
  13. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Hi again,

    What’s your review of Christopher James Beath or Chris Beath ? Is he a good referee?
     
  14. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Semifinals

    Iran - Japan: BEATH (AUS), VAR: VALERI (ITA), AVAR: TAQI (SGP), KO (KOR)

    Qatar - UAE: RAMOS (MEX), VAR: VALERI (ITA), AVAR: TAQI (SGP), BEATH (AUS)

    Ramos gets a semi -- wonder if that's prearranged. Valeri and Taqi in VAR action both days. Beath also busy, in the center one day and in the booth the next day.
     
  15. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It really is remarkable. I really did not see that happening when it comes to SFP via VAR. I thought VAR would embolden referees to make more assertive decisions and go with their "gut" more when it came to SFP decisions knowing they had the VAR as a safety net to bail them out.

    What I thought would be one of the downfalls of VAR would be SFP. VAR intervening on some tackles and not intervening on others in the same match. Instead they just don't bother to intervene at all.

    Instead, as you said, it seems to have done the exact opposite. Go with the "safer" decision and let VAR intervene to upgrade, but the bar is practically so high that it never will.

    MLS kind of was on the "right" track, at least in my opinion, of how to deal with SFP when they first rolled out VAR. Then the league rescinded several red cards that were given via VAR and they have basically started rolling back their involvement. Now, it seems like VAR is just used for any offside decision, the occasional penalty kick and fouls for APP.

    Essentially, MLS wasn't comfortable with more games ending 10 vs. 11 or 9 vs. 10 that they raised the bar as well.

    I think the bar in the CL for the knockout phases will be so high.

    It will be interesting as to what the EPL does when it comes to SFP. I think their bar will be lower, but what I think will happen is they will get so much blow back about their being too many red cards that they will scale it back like what MLS has done.
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  16. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    1089998815958990848 is not a valid tweet id

    So what are your thoughts on the officiating in this match? Could have VAR intervened on the first goal for the initial dive? Was that a handball and a penalty on the second goal?

    Also, does anyone here believe that one could legitimately take issues with Chris Beath’s selection for this match, with him being a former official at the J-League and having been invited to Japan by JFA, on four diffrent occasions to officate Japan’s international friendly matches at home? Is that connection to Japanese football controversial in your opinion?
     
  17. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was about to write "no" and leave it at that, but it is an interesting philosophical question. The answer might technically be "yes," but practically "no."

    On the one hand, VAR cannot intervene on yellow card offences. Simulation is a yellow card offence. That's why I was going to say VAR cannot intervene.

    However, VAR is supposed to intervene if any infringement by the attacking team occurs during the APP (attacking possession phase) that leads to a goal. Technically, if this was simulation, it did occur during the APP because Iran never gained possession. So, I suppose technically, the VAR could review it and send it down.

    That said, Beath had a clear look at the incident and made his decision. Watch the clip below. There is some contact. Beath has determined it is natural contact--not worthy of a foul, but not a dive either. He is fully justified in that decision; that call happens all the time. More to the point, the Japanese player immediately gets up and chases the ball--the Iranian players all protest. Which team is the one truly asking for Beath to make a call?

    The bottom line is you could never make an argument that this was clearly simulation and that it was clearly wrong not to give a yellow card for it. That threshold is just impossible to meet with the set of facts in this case.

    https://streamable.com/0nhaf

    See post above. I think, per instructions by FIFA and what's been called in this tournament, the penalty is correct. In UEFA, it wouldn't be. So a UEFA VAR caused a problem by sending this down for an OFR.

    No.
     
    Thezzaruz repped this.
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Qatar vs. Japan has to be Irmatov, right?

    I mean, there seems to be no other alternative. AFC is only using officials who have previously used VAR. Al-Jassim and Mohammed are both are out because of Qatar's presence. Can't be Faghani due to politics. Can't go back to the well with Beath and I don't think Green is there anymore. Sato is obviously out. And you aren't giving your own Final to a CONCACAF referee.

    Anything but Irmatov would be shocking now.
     
  20. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Eight years ago Irmatov got the Final despite Uzbekistan getting knocked out of the semis, so Mohammed might still be in contention. Not saying it will happen, but it cannot be ruled out.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #71 MassachusettsRef, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    A UAE official refereeing Qatar? Yeah, that can be ruled out.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To put as fine a point as possible on this, I'm talking geopolitical considerations. An Arab referee is not doing Qatar. So far, Qatar has had referees from:

    China PR
    Sri Lanka
    Korea Republic
    Singapore
    Uzbekistan
    Mexico

    That is not a coincidence.

    I presume you can also eliminate Faghani on the same basis, but given Qatar isn't actually playing another Arab team, perhaps not. If the Japanese side is fine with (or prefers) Faghani over Irmatov, I suppose there's an outside shot at that. But just giving it to Irmatov is much, much cleaner.
     
  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Maybe. Does the AFC really want to give Faghani or Irmatov their biggest showpiece which takes place every four years for the second time? If they really don't have other options, they'll do that, but I'm not sure it's desirable from their or anyone else's point of view.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Politics can be a bitch.

    There are considerations that just can’t be ignored. And then you have the AFC’s decision to use VAR at the final stages and to only use referees who have already used VAR competitively. Your starting pool of available referees is maybe 10?

    Who else is trained besides Shukrallah, al-Jassim and Mohammed?

    You have Sato who is out. Ramos is Mexican. Kim was terrible. Green just did a semi. If Faghani is out due to being Iranian, you’re left with Irmatov or Fu. You think Japan wants a Chinese referee?

    Irmatov is the only referee with the pedigree, neutrality and VAR experience to do the match. Plus he was left off the semis when he easily could have been used.
     
  25. Mani

    Mani BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 1, 2004
    Club:
    Perspolis
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Faghani is already back in Iran . And he wasn’t happy with “political decisions” which prevented him from officating any matches involving an Arab team. I have to agree with him. If an Arab or Australian referees are selected for Iran’s matches, why can’t he be selected for their matches? This doesn’t sound fair .
     

Share This Page