2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watching Hategan on this 3rd place playoff and some other qualifiers reminds me of something... two of the bigger injustices in recent memory have been the Henry handball and the penalty call (that Hategan made) in the Northern Ireland-Switzerland match.

    There's no VAR in qualifiers (and, now no AARs). UEFA actually has less protection against blatantly wrong calls than it did last season.

    I imagine UEFA will try to make sure there is VAR for all qualifying playoffs, but that just puts the finish line for injustices one matchday earlier.

    Also, relative to this point, watching a top competitive international match without a VAR now feels weird. The Gold Cup is going to feel weird.
     
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  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Good game by Mallanco in his final Euro match. Controlled the game well.
     
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @RedStar91 was right. This was a very nice thing to see, no matter where you rank Undiano Mallenco.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #54 MassachusettsRef, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
    Dawns on me now why Hategan got this appointment (on a almost meaningless--I realize 1 million euros and one spot on the ladder for the 2020 playoffs were at stake) match rather than a marquee qualifier.

    This is the first UEFA match with VAR where the referee does not use VAR domestically or has not used VAR at a World Cup. So Hategan was the guinea pig. I presume other referees will have to be trusted for the UCL 2019-2020 season, since VAR will be in the playoffs and group stage. But it says a lot that Hategan is the first pick. I know I've been beating this drum, but I think he's going to be the next big thing from a non-major country, a la Cakir or Skomina.
     
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  5. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/uefa-na...awards-best-goalworst-errorbest-xibest-player

    Glad to see at least some media out there criticizing and pointing out the overarching and fundamental problems of VAR and how it's ruining the enjoyment of the sport rather than someone like Grant Wahl and others keep saying "I believe in VAR, it's just the people using VAR need to get better, etc."

    Or saying that VAR got things right and there was nothing wrong with the scenes in the Portugal vs. Switzerland match as shown here. Totally missing the forest from the trees.



     
  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Was it just me, or did I see the referee crew still wearing Adidas kits for some of the Euro qualifiers? I know the referee in the Belgium-Kazakhstan match was wearing a yellow Adidas kit, while I'm almost positive the referee in the Belarus-Germany match was wearing a black Adidas kit.

    It seems odd that with the UEFA referee kit contract now with Macron that they wouldn't have kits available for all of their referees working qualifier matches.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You saw correctly. Odd for sure, but there’s been weird transitions like this before. Getting all the kits to all referees in a short time period is hard, particularly given some of the fourths are newer or rarely have UEFA duty.
     
  8. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Spain denied a goal v Sweden via offside which replays suggest was the wrong call. And there's no VAR in the Euro qualifiers.
     
  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's almost like someone predicted this about eight posts up.
     
  10. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    For those who have seen the play, does it matter that the eventual 'goal scorer' was in an offside position when the initial pass (that was not intended for him) was made? (He was in the center while the pass was made to the right.)
    He clearly was not offside when the cross that was clearly intended for him came in.
     
  11. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    So far from the descriptions, he didn’t directly receive the pass while in the offside position so not interfering with play. It doesn’t sound like he interfered with an opponent. And he wasn’t gaining an advantage because the ball didn’t come to him after a save or a deflection. When he received the ball, he was behind the ball so he was inside.
     
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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No. This is simply a bad call.

     
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  13. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #63 code1390, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
    Oh my. Yeah it's complex with the 2LD on the far side, two OSP attackers, and the player involved on the near side. But still.

    EDIT: Another look at it and I realize he probably called the 2nd ball across the front of the goal as offside. Still a pretty bad miss, but not as shocking.
     
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  14. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    U21 Championship 2019 in Italy and San Marino

    Referees:


    Aleksei KULBAKOV (BLR)
    Georgi KABAKOV (BGR)
    Orel GRINFELD (ISR)
    Andres TREIMANIS (LVA)
    Serdar GÖZÜBÜYÜK (NED)
    Istvan KOVACS (ROU)
    Bobby MADDEN (SCO)
    Srdan JOVANOVIC (SRB)
    Andreas EKBERG (SWE)

    VARs:

    Stuart Attwell, Paul Tierney (ENG)
    Ricardo de Burgos, Xavier Estrada Fernandez (ESP)
    Rudy Buquet, Francois Letexier (FRA)
    Christian Dingert, Tobias Stieler (GER)
    Michael Fabbri, Marco Guida (ITA)
    Jochen Kamphuis, Bas Nijhuis (NED)
    Luis Miguel Branco Godinho, Joao Pedro Silva Pinheiro (POR)
     
  15. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Group A

    Poland - Belgium: KOVACS (ROU) [VARs: Dingert, Stieler (GER)]
    Italy - Spain: GÖZÜBÜYÜK (NED) [VARs: Kamphuis, Nijhuis (NED)]

    Group B

    Serbia - Austria: EKBERG (SWE) [VARs: de Burgos, Estrada Fernandez (ESP)]
    Germany - Denmark: GRINFELD (ISR) [VARs: Letexier, Buquet (FRA)]

    Group C

    Romania - Croatia: MADDEN (SCO) [VARs: Attwell, Tierney (ENG)]
    England - France: JOVANOVIC (SRB) [VARs: Guida, Fabbri (ITA)]

    Big assignment for Jovanovic. Interesting that Attwell and Tierney are VARs in the same group as England.
     
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The English duo are the only ones who didn't use VAR in their league last season.
     
  17. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchday 2

    Group A

    Spain - Belgium: TREIMANIS (LVA) [VARs: Dingert, Stieler (GER)]
    Italy - Poland: KULBAKOV (BLR) [VARs: Letexier, Buquet (FRA)]

    Group B

    Denmark - Austria: KABAKOV (BGR) [VARs: Guida, Fabbri (ITA)]
    Germany - Serbia: KOVACS (ROU) [VARs: de Burgos, Estrada Fernandez (ESP)]
     
  18. greek ref

    greek ref Member

    Feb 27, 2013
    Club:
    Panathinaikos Athens
    Nat'l Team:
    Greece
    New UEFA Categories

    UEFA Elite (26)

    1.Kulbakov (BLR)
    2. Kralove (CZE)
    3. Oliver (ENG)
    4. Taylor (ENG)
    5. Del Cerro Grande (ESP)
    6. Gil Manzano (ESP)
    7. Mateu Lahoz (ESP)
    8. Bastien (FRA)
    9. Turpin (FRA)
    10. Aytekin (GER)
    11. Brych (GER)
    12. Zwayer (GER)
    13. Sidiropoulos (GRE)
    14. Kassai (HUN)
    15. Orsato (ITA)
    16. Rocchi (ITA)
    17. Kuipers (NED)
    18. Makkelie (NED)
    19. Marciniak (POL)
    20. Soares Dias (POR)
    21. Hategan (ROU)
    22. Karasev (RUS)
    23. Collum (SCO)
    24. Kruzliak (SVK)
    25. Skomina (SVN)
    26. Cakir (TUR)

    New promotions in Bold.

    Both referees that have been promoted are there deservedly. But I am surprised by the omission of Vincic. He showed in several cases that he is ready for Elite but he is still in First.

    Also the impressive thing is that there are no demotions. The last demoted Elite was Moen (NOR) who was demoted again to 2nd Category. It seems that the Elite Category is a closed group.
     
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  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    62' minute of England v France U21s... @RedStar91 , we just had a penalty correctly awarded and yellow given for reckless tackle. It was an atrocious challenge. So we see the mythical VAR upgrade from yellow to SFP red and it is on a penalty decision.

    France then misses the penalty by striking the post, though the English goalkeeper was again off the line early and... no call. So this seems pretty consistent with UEFA not strictly enforcing the goalkeeper encroachment via VAR.
     
  20. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    I was watching the Romania-Croatia U21 game while waiting for the women's World Cup games to start. In stoppage time, Romania was awarded a goal after an offside call on the field was overturned via VAR. The review was in stoppage time and didn't affect the game's outcome, but:
    • I think the ARs call on the field was right. The Romanian who scored appeared to have his chest and head offside according to the superimposed lines (which were available on the broadcast).
    • The call took way too long to overturn. I should have timed the review, but it had to be at least four minutes. Again, if it takes that long to come to a ruling, it's not clearly and obviously wrong.
    • Once again, the commentators appeared to have it wrong. He was saying the Romanian was onside despite his head and much of his torso appearing to be offside (and honestly, it wasn't really that close).
    I'd be really curious to know what the discussion was like between the center and the VAR on this play. This seemed to me like a play where the call on the field should have stood.
     
  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don't think there is much conversation on OS if the question is OSP. OSP is considered an objective call, so if the VAR reports to the R that there was no OSP, there isn't much to discuss. (But it might be interesting to have heard the post-game conversation....)
     
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  22. Ghastly Officiating

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    Looks pretty clearly onside to me (The entire length of the defenders foot). They have vertical lines coming down from the defenders foot and the attackers shoulder and it shows the attacker is behind the foot. Working on getting a screenshot. The VAR lines they showed also almost made it seem like he was in line with the ball as well.
     
  23. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    That's fair. This is also a case where perhaps the referee would like an OFR as well. I'm not good at finding screen shots of games, otherwise I'd find a way to get the screen grab of the still shot shown on the broadcast.

    I fully understand that the crew has access to more video than the TV replays I was watching. It just seemed like a pretty cut and dried offside to me based on what the broadcast showed.
     
  24. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    #74 RefIADad, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
    Here is my best attempt at a screenshot from the ESPN+ feed. I thought the blue line was the offside line and that the Romanian’s head and torso were ahead of it.

    upload_2019-6-18_16-25-54.jpeg
     
  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're seeing an optical illusion because of the camera angle and translating a 3D world to a 2D image. The red dotted line coming down from the shoulder to the ground is showing the offside line for the attacker. The VAR clicks on the part of the attacker that is closest to the goal line (the shoulder in this case) and then the software gives you the red and blue line. The red line indicates he was about a yard onside.
     

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