2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Since I know someone will ask the question, I'll put myself out there . . .

    Wouldn't a defensive player challenging in this case constitute the attacker actively involved with the play? I get that if the foul happens across the field, there's no active involvement (and we probably also have a VC red). However, couldn't the justification be made that since the defender is challenging that the attacker is now active?

    I'll now grab my popcorn as I hear the responses. :)
     
  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    While VAR is leading to things like retake for goal keepers coming off their line by a foot and marginal penalty kicks for incidental trips.

    (3:00 in the video) is not even leading to a yellow card anymore much less a red or a review. Too early for a yellow in a tournament semi-final against the host nation?



    Naturally, since the first incident wasn't cautioned or send down for review, no way is the two footed stamp (3:15 in the video) that is naturally retaliation is getting dealt with.

    It seems like the game is going backwards in terms of refereeing.
     
  3. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    California / UK
    Fully expected a yellow to be shown to Bruno Fernandes there at first glance, but the only reason Fernandes kicked Mbabu in the leg was because he first got his foot (heel, really) on the top of the ball, which caused his foot to slide/bounced off it and into Mbabu's leg. That said, did Brych truly see that happen at full speed?

    I thought the VAR PK was horrid, though not quite as much so as the "handball" VAR against Cedric last summer. What I keep coming back to, though, isn't a VAR issue but a penalty issue. Some saw the replay last night and said it's an automatic PK because there was contact with absolutely no room for nuance or, as I see it, common sense. There's just so much grey area when it comes to PK fouls that VAR can't really help clarify.
     
  4. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    If that was pen last night then Joao Félix should of been a pen in the 1st half
     
  5. portugamerifinn

    portugamerifinn Member+

    Feb 22, 2005
    California / UK
    That's the thing. I'm generally fine with that not being given if only because it usually isn't for a tug like that. However, there are people who seem to think an inadvertent, slight tangle of legs while two guys are looking back at the ball - like the Semedo play that was reviewed and adjudged to be a penalty - is an automatic, stone-clad penalty every time. And many, if not most, of those people also don't think that a blatant, intentional grab/pull from behind while Felix is about to shoot is a PK but rather is a "He's gotta be stronger" scenario. For the former to be nothing and the latter to be a PK is simply ass-backwards at best. What is a defender supposed to do there, stay three yards behind the man he's marking instead of one?

    PKs are awarded "automatically" when it really doesn't make much sense for them to be - think of the player in no position to score who's about to dribble out of bounds at the goaline in the corner of the penalty area facing away from the goal who gets his heel clipped after the fact. It makes no sense for that to be a penalty and with VAR we're going to see more instances when a referee has a second chance to make that kind of iffy PK call. Referees simply need more training and more help when it comes to VAR and penalty rulings. Instead, they're merely given another chance to shoot themselves in the foot by adhering to overly strict or ill-defined rules.
     
  6. fischietto

    fischietto Member

    Apr 13, 2018
    Idiot Taylor Twellman claims we have 7 minutes of stoppage time in the SECOND half because an injury wasn’t properly accounted for in the FIRST half. Why even bother ?
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously it had nothing to do with the two two-minute VAR checks that occurred.
     
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  8. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Let's bring Valentin Ivanov back for the Final :D
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one bit, which is good! The answer is "no." "Challenging" involves the ball being within playing distance/close proximity. In this case, kicking the back of a player's legs while the ball is in the air and not yet arrived is not "challenging."

    To be clear, this play was not offside or close in the sense that the correct answer is debatable. The attacker was in an onside position. Even if he hadn't been, the foul occurred before there was any active involvement.

    The reason I raised the hypothetical, though, is entire down to VAR procedures and protocols.

    If there is a clear penalty at one end (e.g., in favor of Switzerland), then the VAR has to inform the referee. But if the penalty was "invalid" because there was actually an attacking offside offence... now what? Spirit of the game says that you just stick with the penalty awarded at the other end, because it would be most just for Portugal to keep the penalty it "earned." But if you are reviewing a potential penalty and the only reason it's not a penalty is because of an offside... doesn't that offside restart have to occur? Can a referee really say "well it would have been a penalty if I had seen it, but since it was actually offside those things cancel each other out and we play on, resulting in the penalty I just awarded?"

    I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if there is an answer. The VAR Handbook actually covers most of this in section 8.17. It says that if a clear missed penalty would be canceled out by an offside or attacking handball, the referee can either do the review (knowing what the result would be, per the VAR) or simply tell the captain of the team that would have got the penalty. However, it does not explicitly address the restart. It seems like the restart is implied (that you stay with the reason you whistled). But when you do an OFR, you're supposed to restart with the appropriate restart based on the OFR, which is an IFK for offside.

    The whole thing would be a mess. And we weren't that far off from it here. It's going to happen one day.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought Turpin was very, very good, by the way. His development in player management over the past two years is so noticeable. He's not quite Kuipers-level yet, but he seems to be following that path after initially being a more of a strict umpire type without soft skills. He is well-positioned for big matches the next 6+ years. The only things holding him back are PSG and the French NT.

    Some notable upcoming qualifiers for Saturday:

    Croatia : Wales - KOVACS (ROU)
    Iceland : Albania - MADDEN (SCO)
    Finland : Bosnia-Herzeogivina - STEFANSKI (POL)
    Belarus : Germany - JOVANOVIC (SRB)
    Turkey : France - SKOMINA (SVN)
    Belgium : Kazakhstan - PELJTO (BIH)
    Scotland : Cyprus - NILSEN (NOR)
    Greece : Italy - TAYLOR (ENG)

    Taylor and Skomina with two marquee games. But interesting and new names sprinkled throughout some other potentially consequential matches.
     
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  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought the same. He's really starting to look like a future World Cup SF/final referee. Unless France keeps playing like they're playing of course.
     
  12. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Mallenco gets the Final for the inaugural UEFA Nations League Finals.

    https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/protecting-the-game/refereeing/news/newsid=2608837.html?iv=true

    Quite a finish to pretty remarkable career. He gets to choose his own ending. Very few referees get to do that.

    His last two matches are the Copa Del Rey Final and the inaugural UEFA Nations League Final.

    Not many referees get to go out on their own terms and on a prestigious assignment. Mallenco did that.

    Most either end their careers on a sour note or in relative anonymity due to injuries or just moving on to an administration role without any planned exit.

    Collina ended his career on Champions League qualifying match and had to retire from Serie A due to a conflict of interest with an advertiser. Busacca ended his career on a sour note (some might say in disgrace) by sending off Van Persie for kicking the ball away.

    Howard Webb never got a send off in the EPL, etc. Think of all the MLS referees who did a lot of games for a lot of years and either got hurt or let go without any notice or recognition from the league or US Soccer/PRO.

    Also, pretty cool for the way Spanish football and Real Madrid honored Mallenco with his last La Liga game.

     
  13. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    NHL has a pretty good program. They are constantly doing career planning with their refs, and when someone decides that this will be their last year, they plan out the entire year's assignments. One key is that the ref's last match is never a playoff game or even a game in the weeks leading up to the playoffs. Usually a small tour of some cities that are important to the ref where they can be celebrated in their final appearance there. That means that nobody goes out on a high note (e.g. Stanley Cup Final game), but also nobody goes out with major controversy.
     
  14. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Third place match

    Switzerland : England

    Referee: Ovidiu Hategan (ROU)
    Assistant Referee 1: Octavian Sovre (ROU)
    Assistant Referee 2: Sebastian Gheorghe (ROU)
    Fourth Official: Anastasios Sidiropoulos (GRE)
    Video Assistant Referee: Michael Fabbri (ITA)
    Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Marco Di Bello (ITA)

    Final

    Portugal : Netherlands

    Referee: Alberto Undiano Mallenco (ESP)
    Assistant Referee 1: Roberto Alonso (ESP)
    Assistant Referee 2: Juan Carlos Yuste (ESP)
    Fourth Official: Antonio Mateu Lahoz (ESP)
    Video Assistant Referee: Alejandro Hernandez Hernandez (ESP)
    Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Juan Martinez Munuera (ESP)
     
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  15. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    To be precise, between these two matches he did a friendly between France and Bolivia. But your point still stands.
     
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  16. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Collina ended his career in an embarrassing nature in the Champions League Qualifier. He ruled out a goal for Everton on a phantom foul preventing Everton from advancing.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/16/david-moyes-everton-champions-league-villarreal
     
  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think it's time for you to move on from that game and that incident.

    At that time, referees like Collina consistently called "soft" fouls against attackers on set pieces. Watch any of his old games or any of the games from that time. They would call fouls against attackers that would never be called in today's game.

    The only reason this one backfired was the fact that it went in.
     
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  18. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nice little send off for Undiano. Yet I'm still left with the feeling that he could have done more, at least internationally.

    For much of this past decade he was playing second fiddle to Velasco Carballo, I didn't expect that after the 2010 World Cup.
     
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  19. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's really one of the great mysteries of why Carballo moved up ahead of Mallenco internationally.

    Mallenco had a fine World Cup in 2010 and got a knockout appointment, but had to go home do to Spain advancing to the Final.

    Carballo went to Euro 2012 and botched the opening game and went home after the group stages.

    Carballo went to World Cup 2014 and did okay in the group stages, got a knockout match and we all know how that went between Brazil and Colombia....

    Carballo was from Madrid so he couldn't referee Real Madrid or Atletico Madrid which means he couldn't referee El Clasico or Real Madrid vs. Atletico Madrid or Atletico Madrid vs. Barcelona while Mallenco seemingly did every big game in Spain between those three sides.

    So somehow Carballo became Spain's top referee internationally without ever refereeing the top games in Spain. It would be like Howard Webb become the top international referee from England even though he could never referee games involving Man U, Man City, Chelsea and LIverpool.
     
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  20. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    I'm finally getting around to watching the replay of this game. Fully agree on Turpin. Every time I watched a game he refereed this season (no Ligue 1 since I don't have BeIn, but CL and UEFA national matches), he's been excellent. He does have that Kuipers-like manner about him where he's very composed and doesn't ever find the need to be a strict disciplinarian. It's too bad France is so good right now, because that might be the only thing keeping him from a World Cup final.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Undiano was very quick for the cards a decade ago. Very quick. My interpretation of things is that he got a knockout match in 2010 because he was a Spanish referee and he had to—not because FIFA felt he had set the world on fire. He was a card machine as that style was going out of favor.

    Then Collina identified and liked Velasco more. That sets him on the path for 2012 and beyond.

    My recollection is that Undiano also had a few hiccups in UCL matches this past decade. He did enough to stay relevant and fight off others for a bit, like Fernandez Borbalan. But he was never a top 8 or so official. That’s nothing to be ashamed of. Being firmly between #8 and #20 in Europe for about 12 straight years is more than all but a very few referees can claim.
     
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  22. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I don't think Undiano ever officiated a semi in either UEFA competition (correct me if I'm wrong). Which is rather strange for a Elite Spanish referee.

    I recall him officiating a CL QF between Chelsea and Manchester United in 2011 but that's about it.

    Incidentally, another official who reminds me of Undiano is Benquerenca. He too went to the 2010 WC; but then lost his top spot to Pedro Proenca...just like Undinao lost out to Velasco. Benquerenca was quite the card shark too.

    Remember Collina became UEFA's referees' chief in August 2010, so MassRef could be on to something...
     
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  23. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Undiano Mallenco is from Navarra, so the only Spanish club he couldn't officiate was Osasuna, which has bounced between first and second divisions recently.

    Speaking of cards, at the 2010 World Cup he gave nine cautions in the Germany-Serbia group stage game, two to Klose.
     
  24. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Yet, it wasn’t a foul. He should never have been on the match. A tad fishy.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stop.
     
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