2019-2020 UEFA Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have arbitrarily decided that the Nations League finals start the 2019-2020 season, rather than end the 2018-2019 one. So we'll start with this assignment, for the semifinals on Wednesday:

    Portugal : Switzerland
    Referee: Felix BRYCH (GER)
    Assistant Referee 1: Mark BORSCH (GER)
    Assistant Referee 2: Stefan LUPP (GER)
    Fourth Official: Viktor KASSAI (HUN)
    Video Assistant Referee: Christian DINGERT (GER)
    Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Tobias STIELER (GER)

    First time Brych has seen Switzerland since that World Cup match. And he has his normal assistants from UEFA competitions. Borsch likely coming straight from Baku.

    Anyway, we'll try to formalize this thread a bit more this year. It will be for UEFA events/matches and any competitions in UEFA that do not alright have their own dedicated thread.

    So, UCL, UEL, Super Cup, EURO qualifiers, youth events and any women's events would go here unless a match is so big or so controversial that it generates its own thread.

    At the moment, the EPL (and related FA/England events) and the Bundesliga have had their own threads. People are welcome to open up other domestic league threads but I'm not sure how big the appetite for them is. Regardless, if there is no domestic thread, then important matches or appointments can go here.

    EURO 2020 will be its own separate forum next year, so this thread will end with the 2020 UCL Final.
     
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  2. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Next year will really be the most wide open it has been in a long time for the CL Final. All of the major candidates that have been doing the later stages of the CL for the past decade (Cakir, Skomina, Mazic, Kuipers, Brych) have gotten the game.

    Your candidates are Lahoz, Turpin and who else? Maybe Marciniak, but he hasn't been able to put together a solid CL campaign in two seasons now due to injury and performance. Maybe Orsato?

    You get a final of PSG and a Spanish team and you are left with a relatively inexperienced referee getting the match.
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I still think Oliver will need a season or two for the fallout of the Juventus match to dissipate before he we see him in the latter stages of the CL.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think, at that point, it's Oliver v. Makkelie for that match presuming Marciniak hasn't recovered his form. And yes, those are two relatively inexperienced officials in UEFA competitions.

    It's a time of transition. Like you said, the absolute best who are still active have already done the match and some have just retired or left without those holes being filled. Plus your safest bet from the "yes, I'm from a very tiny country but I can do that match, too" category literally just got the game; it will take a few years for Hategan or Vincic or someone else to fill the role that Skomina or Kassai or De Bleeckere filled for a good time. It's also the first time in the UCL era that there isn't at least one top Scandinavian referee to call upon. It also hasn't yet become crystal clear who the next big names are for Italy and Germany. Add in no clear big name from Portugal and no one from Switzerland and it's just a weird time period.

    But things need to get sorted out for EURO 2020, so I think a lot of names are going to get big opportunities this year--UEFA definitely laid the groundwork for that in the group stages for 2018... it just got stunted because of the knockout rule regarding VAR experience. That will obviously change for this season, which means both that newer names will get R16 and QF matches and there is a risk for more disaster/controversy in the group stage, as less experienced referees and VARs handle matches with the technology.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree. Unless Taylor just clearly passes him, what alternative is there?

    You won't see him in Italy anytime soon, but I can't imagine he doesn't at least do a QF next year, barring disaster. He needs to be prepped for and trusted with EURO 2020... he's going to be one of your top 6-7 referees there and you're not going to give him a UCL QF? That doesn't make sense.
     
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  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Unless Lahoz or Turpin get the Final next year, your next CL Final referee will be relatively inexperienced in the latter stages of the CL.

    Look at all the names that have done the CL Final this decade, they all have had semifinals and multiple high level appointments in the CL or Europa League prior.

    The only one that kind of came out of nowhere was Kansai in 2011, but he did the World Cup semifinal the year before. Kassai only did two CL knockout stages matches in his entire career prior to the Final and those were round of 16 matches.

    2012: Proenca did a CL semifinal in 2011.
    2013: Rizzoli did a CL quarter final second leg between Man U and Bayern Munich in 2010, then did Arsenal vs. Barca in 2011 and did the Europa League Final in 2010.

    2014: Kuipers did a CL semifinal in 2013.
    2015: Cakir did a CL semifinal in 2012 and a Euro 2012 semifinal
    2016: Clattenburg did a CL semifinal in 2015
    2017: Brych did multiple CL semifinals and a Europa League Final by then.
    2018: Mazic did multiple CL quarter finals by then (Did he do a semifinal?)
    2019: Skomina has been doing the latter stages of the CL this entire decade.

    If not Lahoz or Turpin, the track record will be pretty bare for next year's referee.

    Makes you realize how lucky UEFA got with having Urs Meier and Busacca for essentially 15 years in the Champions League.

    I can't think of anyone off top of my head that is from a smaller country that you could put on a CL final right now.
     
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  7. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think you're right. We should see him in the quarters for sure, but I don't think he is quite ready for the Final, plus he will be a year behind in the CL in terms of the use of VAR.
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know there's gonna be so much BS involving VAR in the Premier League that I'm not sure UEFA will trust English crews next year.

    I'm joking of course. Or am I? :)
     
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  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. Your whole analysis is spot-on. Mateu Lahoz is really a mortal lock if a Spanish club doesn’t make it. But given the track record of Spanish clubs to make the semis, it might make Turpin the favorite. After that, it gets real dicey.

    I think you can name three of the semi referees next year right now: Kuipers, Skomina and Brych. If Cakir doesn’t get the UEL Final, he’s the fourth.

    Not just Switzerland here. Sweden and Portugal have also essentially had a UCL Semifinal capable referee active from the late 90s until just a couple years ago. And there always seemed to be one more Western European referee from a more minor country—first Dallas, then De Bleeckere—who could be called upon for any match. None of that applies now.

    The trusted hands outside the big countries all come from “eastern” Europe. And they’ve either done the match (Skomina and Cakir), been shaky (Marciniak, Karasev) or both (Kassai).

    Even the talents for the future, outside Soares Dias, seem to come from the east.

    Marciniak if he regains form is probably closest. I think UEFA would trust him if they reached the point where they needed him and he had a deserving season.

    In reality, it’s probably Hategan. I don’t think he’s ready next year, which is why I say Oliver and Makkelie as top alternatives if it is PSG v Barca. But if Hategan has a good EURO 2020, he will be the next major candidate from a minor country.

    The landscape is really going to change and sort itself over the next 12 months. It really seems like the only two certain things are that Makkelie and Hategan are on the ascendancy and that Turpin will be France’s #1 for a bit. Everything after that has an asterisk or question mark.

    Can Taylor match or pass Oliver? Does Cerro Grande get a turn as Spain’s #1? Who leads in Germany and takes over for Brych? Is Massa really the answer in Italy? When will Kuipers and Cakir retire? Will Marciniak and/or Skomina leave for China or elsewhere? And then all the questions about the minor countries... ranging from the development of some of the referees like Vincic, Kruzliak, Soares Dias and Collum—who have all previously been identified and gotten some big matches—to the easing along of some of the other names we’ve seen get smaller chances or youth appointments (Denmark, Serbia, Switzerland, Israel, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Finland and others all seem to have referees who have taken that first initial step toward UCL regularity or EURO 24 hope).
     
  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Will Orsato be available next year? Or has he aged out?

    If he's available and eligible, I would put him behind in that tier behind Lahoz and Turpin.

    He's way better than Massa and has the necessary pedigree and experience to get a CL Final. He got Man United vs. PSG this year in the Round of 16.
     
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  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He is. I hadn’t really considered him. I guess my thought was that if Rocchi doesn’t get a final, he won’t. But that might not be true. He could just be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
     
  12. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    No, perhaps surprisingly, Mazic has never done a CL semifinal.
     
  13. balu

    balu Member

    Oct 18, 2013
    Netherlands : England
    Referee: Clement TURPIN (FRA)
    Assistant Referee 1: Nicolas DANOS (FRA)
    Assistant Referee 2: Cyril GRINGORE (FRA)
    Fourth Official: Anastasios SIDIROPOULOS (GRE)
    Video Assistant Referee: Francois LETEXIER (FRA)
    Assistant Video Assistant Referee: Nicolas RAINVILLE (FRA)
     
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  14. fischietto

    fischietto Member

    Apr 13, 2018
    Massa should not be the answer in Italy.

    The most impressive Italian referee this season was Marco Guida. He’s trusted for the top domestic appointments along with Rocchi/Orsato. Next season will be a year of change in Italy, as Mazzoleni and Banti (two veterans with extensive experience) retire from on field duty due to age limits. Unclear if they will continue as VAR specialists.

    No young names have really impressed this season when given the chance.
     
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  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Notable EURO 2020 qualifiers:

    Montenegro : Kosovo - ORSATO (ITA)
    Ukraine : Serbia - MATEU LAHOZ (ESP)
    Denmark : Republic of Ireland - CAKIR (TUR)
    Norway : Romania - KARASEV (RUS)
    North Macedonia : Poland - ROCCHI (ITA)
    Austria : Slovenia - KULBAKOV (BLR)

    No referee above can have the Nations League Final, given the dates. So given the officials attending the WWC as VARs, the semifinal referees, and the teams involved... the list has narrowed.

    Hategan is quite possible. Maybe a going away present for Undiano Mallenco?

    I also wonder why Kassai and Sidiropoulos have the FO roles here for the semis. Perhaps they are in Portugal for a week and will have the final two matches?
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's worth noting that Turpin is or should already be in camp at the WWC in his home country of France, which starts on Friday. Yet FIFA has allowed UEFA to call him for the Nations League semifinal on Thursday. This is now the second time in less than a month that's happened. This has never been standard practice. You get called for a major tournament and you're supposed to be there early and you stay until you're dismissed.
     
  17. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Big scenes in Portugal.

    A Swiss player goes down in the area and they scream for the PK but Brych plays on. The next stoppage of play occurs at the other end when Portugal is awarded a PK. Brych goes over for an OFR and gives Switzerland a PK although it's certainly not the clearest and most obvious of PKs.

    So in the end we have a kinda soft penalty wiping out a stonewall penalty. Did the fact that the restart was going to be a PK on either end lower the standard for Brych to give a PK for Switzerland?
     
  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Well, that's one way for Brych to show that he'll actually use VAR after the debacle last summer at the World Cup . . .

    I don't see how that's a penalty in real time, and I have zero idea at all how that was a clear and obvious error. The Swiss player sure appeared to trip himself more than the Portuguese contact causing the fall. The penalty at the other end favoring Portugal was a MUCH clearer penalty in my opinion.
     
  19. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's hard not to think that if play went out for a throw in then it's a lot easier for the VAR to say "check complete". When the restart is going to be a PK on the other end, I think psychologically it becomes a lot harder to ignore that slight contact on the foot. We're talking about a two goal swing.
     
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  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Everyone in Serbia just threw up with disgust and irony....

    Farcical scenes. No way is that clear and obvious by any standards that UEFA or FIFA have applied in the CL and World Cup.

    I agree with code1390. This goes out for a throw in or goal kick and we get a "check complete."
     
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This goes back to the amount of luck that there was at the World Cup and in the Champions League this season in regards to the VAR. Referees and VARs didn't have anything close to a situation like there where essentially you almost have to use VAR.

    The WWC will be fun unless FIFA just decides to use the three male VARs on every single game.
     
  22. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From the mind of Felix Brych.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Fortunately, Bernardo Silva and Cristiano Ronaldo doing Silva and Ronaldo things will turn the VAR review into a footnote. I'm sure Brych will breathe a sigh of relief after that.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the sentiment about the whole thing being farcical. But I’m not sure we get a “check complete” here if the ball goes for a throw in. The problem is German VARs have had a low threshold for PK intervention domestically and they haven’t had a ton of opportunities in UEFA to show what they’d do. Here was one.

    And I think that’s the bigger problem. This is clearly wrong for a German VAR. Maybe an Italian one other than Irrati. But it’s probably not getting called by English or French VARs. Establishing a clear and consistent threshold across multiple competitions for “clearly wrong” borders on the impossible.

    By the way... imagine if this (meaning the Swiss penalty) had been on a ball played toward an offside attacker and the foul was not committed until he was involved. Try wrapping your head around how that would have played out. We didn’t miss out on that truly nightmare scenario by that much. This shows it’s possible. I hope referees are prepared.
     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ve joked about that trio but there are actually 13 male VARs there. And the plan is for them to be main VAR on all matches.

    It’s rumored FIFA will now have two female AVARs on each match (and that Mariscal is on the opener) but FIFA has not published that level of detail thus far.
     

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