PBP: 2018 CONCACAF U-20 Championship: USA vs. Honduras 11/19 8:00 ET

From past teams, I don’t think it’s a Latino thing. He just tends to randomly rate guys highly who have no business even being on his roster

 

I just don’t understand the average USMNT fan’s love of Tab. He’s had 2 of the best ever u-20 player pools and he’s played awful soccer with both

 

The official game summary from USSoccer:

https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...u20-championship-final-after-1-0-win-honduras

Putting things politely ...

 

This game basically proceeded as we expected and discussed on the opening page of this thread.

No real incentive for either team to go guns a'blazin in this game.

Job done for the US. Advance to final with some squad rotation and avoiding injury in a game that really didn't matter. Honduras would have been happy with the most boring 0-0 draw in the history of soccer.

Does the "average USMNT fan" have a love of Tab Ramos? I don't see that at all. They seem kind of ambivalent. They don't love him or hate him. He just does the job.

What we see is results. Back to back World Cup quarterfinals (and 4 straight qualifications) and now we have a chance to be back-to-back CONCACAF Champions. I don't know if people realize this, but the US had never won the U20 CONCACAF Championships outright until Tab did in 2017.

Basically Tab's U20 team is the only USYNT/USMNT we can point to that consistently meets expectations. Sometimes the play can be more pragmatic than pretty. But the results are there. I mean, this 2019 U20 CONCACAF Championships has been about as easy of an event as I can remember for a USYNT. They seemingly haven't been really challenged. And Tab is missing at least half a dozen of what I'd consider his "best players."

At this point I'd be happy to name Tab Ramos as our U23 coach as well. Why the hell not? He actually gets the job done.

 

Tab is our version of Gareth Southgate (England's manager)- not the flashiest or most renowned name, but he knows the young guys better than anyone else and they put on their best for him. Love or hate the style, but you can never say that he loses to teams he should beat, and the atmosphere around the team always seems really positive.

 

Southgate is a lot better than the average fan believes. His tactical adjustments against Croatia were spot on. Ramos seems to be just OK and nothing more.

 

I won't claim to know a ton about either's tactical acumen, just more of both of their belief and joy in working with young players and the ability to get them to play together. Southgate was manager of the England u21 team for 3 years before becoming the main guy. As for Ramos, pulling 23 teenagers from across the country/world and getting them to play together in a way that consistently wins games is not easy. Back-to-back WC quarterfinals had never been done before in our u20's history, and I'd say that we have a pretty good shot of getting to that level again, if not further.

 

I disagree with the reports that the US was more cautious at the end. Honduras simply just refused to come out of their bunker. Knocking the ball around in your half should invite a team out and open more space. If Honduras showed any desire to try for the Championship I didn't see it.

 

Tab has learned some lessons.

I remember his first cycle in 2013 when he talked and talked about playing a more possession oriented game (this while Klinsmann was talking about playing with a more latin style with the USMNT). We actually looked good at the CONCACAF Championships going undefeated until losing to Mexico in extra time of the final.

Tab went out against Spain at the World Cup with this style and we got our assess handed to us, though. Total annihalation. We finished last in our group with only a single point (albeit a monstrous group of France, Spain, and Ghana).

When you're in tournament mode, all that matters is the result. Get the W and move on. A little more pragmatism than trying to play "the beautiful game" is fine. At no point during any game of this tournament so far have I as a USYNT fan felt uncomfortable. A really solid and robust performance. We can look back a year in the U20 qualifying threads and see a lot of people being uneasy about the defensive options, the options in defensive midfield, where the goals were going to come from without Sargent. Lots of concerns. Tab flat out got the job done. He made the competition look really inferior to what in essence is our B team (maybe B+).

 

Remember, Ramos got a lot of flack for not doing enough to keep González. Do you know what the González family wanted? The same treatment as Adams. Play a cycle up for the U20s and a full NT call up.

So let's be clear, the U20 program can not afford being perceived as anti-Hispanic or we will lose kids to Mexico or Central America. If that means he looks a little too pro-Hispanic then so be it.

 

Tab is originally Uruguayan and his MO tends to match them. They have a total devotion to development. They work hard on both technical and physical aspects. Through the decades I have seen some ugly, ugly Uruguayan teams because they will always do whatever is needed to win.

The above doesn't mean Tab is a genius or that his ways are the best ways. But things are organized and we are having some good outcomes. I am loathe to change things.

 

I don't really see what Tab has done with this squad as being anti- or pro-hispanic.

I mean, the squad isn't that far away from what folks were picking ahead of the tournament.

I don't see it...................................

 

No, Honduras was more cautious, but we were content, as if both teams were protecting a 1-0 result. And oddly, this made sense for both teams. For us, it saved us from fatigue, from cards, from injuries, and put us comfortably into tomorrow's final, where we belong. We had the wind behind us, with qualification already assured.

From the Honduran point of view, qualification was not a certainty, and at the start of the game, there was a risk that playing the open game (that spectators might have wanted to see) would cause them to leak goals and risk their advancement. I think their optimal strategy - hold onto 0-0 for 70 minutes, never pushing forward but always willing to steal a goal if we made a mistake, then attack the last 20 minutes or so (with 0-4 no longer a possibility) - worked for a half, but went away when we scored (and tilted the mountain toward risk-avoidance).

The conditions of contest - the three-team group, two to advance - worked against good soccer in both games last night. Look at the other game, where Mexico was content to advance to the final on "fair Play" points, though at least Panama had to (try to) retake the initiative.

On balance, with both teams qualified, and the final a lesser deal, both Panama and Honduras will leave feeling satisfied. I feel the entire set-up left a lot to be desired.

 

There is no way to pick a NT squad without getting accused of some type of favoritism. It's part of the package.

 

I think an all-around CF has to be able to beat his opponent 1-1 not just be another Jozy, waiting for the perfect cross to pounce.

 

I don't. I think Tab lacks vision.

 

There have been many world class CF who don’t beat people 1-1. Ever hear of Ruud Van Nistleroy? I’d sure be thrilled with Brian McBride who wasn’t a 1-1 guy.

 

Nope

 

if you mean outquick, outsmart, outdribble, or outposition your opponent, then yes.

if you mean overpower your opponent, then no.

 

With the ball? I think they need to be able to get their shot off and on frame. But they don't need to dribble by anyone. What CF in the world does that? If they could do that, they are usually on the wing.

CFs usually are beating their opponents without the ball.

 

I meant the out-quick one.
We already have a bruiser in Jozy.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that Ramos' teams are pro or anti-anything. Whatever you think of his talent evaluation skills overall, or however his picks turned out as full professionals later, I think Ramos pretty clearly picks the guys he thinks are going to get him wins. He'll miss one or two, and he'll add a couple of guys who suck, but most of the top guys aren't made available by their clubs anyway.

Ramos' most impressive skillset seems to be the fact that he's consistently getting about 90-95 percent out of whatever pool he has to work with, and turn that into results even when he has a couple of bad players out there. It's why we've qualified for the last 4 U20 WC's despite the U23's crapping the bed over and over. With them, you face the same problems as Ramos with top guys out, but nobody's been able to get the U23 pool of "depth" guys over the hump consistently.

His biggest flaws, IMO, are that he's a poor game manager, and his tactics leave something to be desired. But as a talent evaluator/scout, he's solid IMO.

Not to mention, Latino players just haven't panned out for the USA for the most part. We've got some great prospects coming through again, so hopefully that will change. I'd also point out that dozens U20 players since 2011 have washed out, not just the Latino ones.

 

i'm not really saying ramos is or isnt anything...

but i have noticed that of the players that have played for him and "disappeared" as pros - a lot of them are the latino players - and of the ones that have become something for the USMNT - none (any?) have been latinos. a little headscratching to ponder.....

now that could mean there is institutional racism in the soccer landscape in the USA that prevents latino players from being successful - i look at a player like christian ramirez as potential evidence of that.

or it could be that ramos feels something and has more sympathy for players of that background - maybe b/c he is aware of the barriers they face that other demographics dont - or it could be a million reasons why he might have even a slight preference for a certain demographic -

or it could just be down to luck

or it could be those players mature earlier and don't continue to develop physically and thats what holds them back after being a u20

or it could ussf wanting to keep the door open in case the next us superstar can choose between mexico and us and they want to consistently keep some latinos in the team no matter how good they are.....

whatever the reason - seems ramos does have a slight preference from what i've seen - and based on how the players' careers have turned out....but it could just be coincidence.....

 

USMNT players are a small sample size and maybe you guys are forgetting a few. Agudelo could have been a truly great player. Bedoya was pretty good for the US. Lletget could have contributed more except for injuries. I can also name non-Hispanic after non-Hispanic that has failed the NT. But yeah, key Hispanic players in the NT are at an all time low. Again, I think that is just a small sample size. It wasn't too long ago that Reyna, Bocanegra and Armas were must start players and those three would be part of the NT today. Right now I would only pencil in Villafana as a starter but that are quite a few hanging around the edges that we might see plenty of.