2018-19 Development Academy

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by TheFalseNine, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Oh, ffs, this is becoming like the MNT forum. The issue was whether there were differences in the probabilities, not the absolute levels.

    The majority of posters here in the past had pushed the point of view that it was better to develop in Europe (or at least Germany) than in MLS. If so, a lower salary in Germany can beat a higher salary in MLS. The question is how much lower? If the answer is not much, then maybe there isn't much of a reason to go to Germany at all.

    After all, if the upside is a few hundred thousand with a career in Germany, then you guys should be arguing for going the college route since you can get that in MLS and you also get a college degree, which you may well need given that level of pay.

    There is also a second issue of whether they could have found a better deal with another German team, but that is a separate issue and we should be able to hold both questions in our heads at the same time.
     
  2. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan Member

    Jul 6, 2006
    of course there is a difference in the 'probability' but its not a random number like 5 and 20 percent lol. Truth is you can't calculate the probability because there are too many factors and those fact are never equal or the same from place to place. So the entire probability angle that you are trying to calculate just doesn't exist its way tougher then you think it is and way more complicated then a simple number of probability.

    the point in the past is that in germany they've done a better job at developing prospects and in europe in general when compared to the mls system. Even if this is true a lower salary doesn't 'beat' a higher salary in mls for a few reasons. The biggest being just because lets say german clubs do a better job developing talent its also much tougher to break through. The competition is a lot higher. so at a certain point higher salary with less competition is a better situation to break through then a lower salary with a lot more competition.

    I just think maybe you don't understand the conversation we were having.

    we are discussing if it was a good idea for him to go to germany for the salary he has when he clearly had other options.
     
  3. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    I don't think Baysider was trying to nail the exact probabilities, just that there is a higher probability of playing in Europe if you develop in Germany as opposed to MLS. The exact numbers are irrelevant. I

    "...a lower salary doesn't 'beat' a higher salary in mls for a few reasons. The biggest being just because lets say german clubs do a better job developing talent its also much tougher to break through." Yes, but this is the whole point about why Kleiban could have made such a seemingly dumb move for his client: If you believe in your talent and are willing to "bet on yourself," that gamble is a risk you would be willing (and eager) to take.

    This doesn't make it a smart move necessarily. We have seen young players getting time in MLS, so you can't say that Mendez and Llanez would never get a chance with LA. (especially with the interest that te Kloese is said to have shown in them). And, we have seen young players transfer out of MLS and have immediate success in Germany, so you can't say that MLS is incapable of developing players to that level.

    Seems like the better move would have been to stay at LA with a bigger salary and earn minutes there before moving to a Bundesliga team at a point higher up the food chain than the U19s (especially in Llanez' case where he was not even been able to officially sign for months).

    For the move to make sense, the calculus had to involve the theory that the players would be better off long term in the youth environment in Germany than in a professional environment in the US, no matter the salary implications.
     
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  4. STANDFAST

    STANDFAST Member

    United States
    Jun 8, 2018
    One might argue the value of the life experience of playing in Europe at a young age. Living with your parents while you train with the hometown MLS club just doesn't require the same cojones. I would take half the pay for the chance to broaden my world, learn new languages etc.
     
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  5. The only right answer in my opinion to that question is to have people evaluate you who's business it is to judge potental talents to hire. In other words the best solution is to go on a trial tour through several well known European academies. You'll find out a well informed picture of your possibilities.
     
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  6. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the very near past going to Europe at 16 or 18 if you had to was a no brainer answer. To play in almost any team in Europe it was best to go over young or get a lot of caps for a good national team. With the Adams and Alphonso Davies signing and to a lesser degree the McKennie, Richards and other MLS academy kids quick movement up the ladder being in an MLS academy or team is no longer the kiss of death for young players. It now seems to be very individualistic in is your MLS team and academy a good place to grow, get minutes and then move like Adams did. Not for everyone as some teams are'nt ideal or the situation a player is moving to - Pulisic, McKennie - are ideal.
     
  7. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it has always been about whether or not your individual team is going to play you. You could say that minutes in MLS > minutes for 2nd team/youth team in Europe, but I think for the most part, minutes on the 2nd team/youth team in Europe are better than minutes at an MLS Academy/USL team.

    So, from that perspective, it was always about whether or not you could play in MLS and would get a chance to lock down a starting role. For attacking players in particular, where they're competing with late-20's high-priced DP's, the opportunities are slim-to-none. Outside of 2 teams, this year (FCD, Philly), I could not name another US attacker that forced their way into the lineup of another MLS team without an injury ahead of them. So, for example, it makes sense that Ledezma and Soto would bolt for Europe, because they're likely not displacing an MLS attacker, and will develop better on the Hannover/PSV youth teams vs. RSL Monarchs.

    Now we're at a crossroads of a different sort: Once you break into MLS, can you break into Europe in your early/mid 20's? If Garber/MLS really walk-the-walk w/r/t MLS being a "selling league", they'll be offloading some very interesting prospects in the next 1-4 years. Pretty soon, it won't be just Tyler Adams that is an immediate starter on a Bundesliga team, and with guys like Carleton, Aaronson, Pepi, and so on, it won't just be CB's/DM's.
     
  8. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    at this point the most appealing aspect of mls expansion is more academies
     
  9. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I found this tweet to be interesting.

     
  10. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Attractive contract offer like $12k a year?
     
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  11. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    has he addressed the elephant in the room or was the statute of limitations on shame a week or so?
     
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  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just had the check the twitter responses to see if anyone hammered him. There were a few but I wanted more.
     
  13. Runhard

    Runhard Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Jul 5, 2018

    I actually agree with Kleiban here and think this is a bad idea for US development of elite level players. I think its undisputed the best players in the world are all in European leagues, ergo we want as many US kids over there as possibly from a young age. If you read the quotes from guys like Adams, Sargeant, Richards, Pulisic and Mckennie they all agree the euro environment is much harder and different than anything in the MLS and it has shaped who they are.

    This rule will only serve to reduce the number of kids getting shots in Europe. The MLS will now be forced to sign them young or if smart, the MLS DA kids should move to non-MLS Da teams until 18 and then go over on a free. I know kids not in the DA at MLS clubs who are in the process of going on trials in Europe and will transfer this summer as well, does the MLS still get a bite out of them? Hopefully not.
     
  14. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one denies that MLS teams should try to sign their best players at younger ages. I just think it is rich coming from him talking about attractive contracts.

    My philosophy is and always has been but you can never truly outsource your own development.
     
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  15. Runhard

    Runhard Member

    Barcelona
    United States
    Jul 5, 2018
    I don't know if the numbers are correct on the contracts of Uly and Medez but if so they definitely sound small. But even at that, I could be convinced it was a better option for them to go to Europe almost for nothing than to stay at LAG for 100K a year. The atmosphere is simply not the same, if you believe those listed above, in an MLS team as it is in Europe. The money is a non factor if you are looking long term and you truly believe you are a world class talent, as Kleiban thinks about those two. Time will tell if he is right but for now, its all about what is the best situation to test you and make you become that player.

    I don't have a problem outsourcing US Development if it is better than what the MLS has and for now, I think it definitely is based upon what our young guys are saying.
     
  16. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    What if Pepi wasn’t the best ‘03 from El Paso?
     
  17. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Always has been. Give me as many new academies as possible, especially if they're at the level of modern expansion teams (Seattle, NYCFC, Atlanta, LAFC). The academies, plus the USL2 teams and the MLS teams providing playing time, means more to me than anything else by quite a distance. It's why I'd rather have Charlotte get a team than Vegas since I think they can affect that more so than others.
     
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  18. kingshark

    kingshark Member

    Mar 3, 2006
    #868 kingshark, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    My positive thought:

    if an euro club doesn't even want to pay that very small percentage of Solidarity Payments to the player's former club, that means they don't rate him, just buy a lottery ticket. Yes, even if euro clubs doesn't rate a player (just bring them there because it costs nothing), there might be some late developed hidden gems can succeed, but the possibility is very very low, because at the age of 18, talent level are quite obvious.

    on the other side, MLS team might be more serious and smart on youngsters' development, because good development means good money returns from trading high value players overseas. That means we could produce more high level of talents.
     
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  19. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are now teams where going a year or two later is actually better ala Tyler Adams. Is LA now one of these? I'll guess and say they will be because of their new GM but can't fault a player who doesn't want to take the chance that Carleton took and want proof before signing away their future. 3-5 years from now there will be answers but if it was me I'd do what those two kids did but find an agent that got me a contract that's more in line with other players in similar circumstances.
     
  20. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who do you have in mind that's better?
     
  21. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. Short term it's better for most to go to the known development academies in Europe. However, if MLS teams kept losing their best players for free they would start going backward in development. No owner would continually give away his best assets for nothing. This gives even more incentive to develop. I actaully think the US will become among the best at it like they did in other sports they were once bad to terrible in like gymnastics, cycling, ice skating (Olympics) etc. If the US didn't have good coaches they brought the best ones here which we have been seeing in soccer lately. It takes a bit of time for processes to take hold and the athletes to grow up but they are turning from a trickle to a flood and more teams are on the way with lots of examples of how to do it now.
     
  22. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think Pepi’s the best, but Chris Garcia has a very high ceiling. In a few years, he could be better. So far watching these GA Cup games, his stock, in my opinion, has went up more than any other young American player at the tournament.
     
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  23. Peter Bonetti

    Peter Bonetti Member+

    Jan 1, 2005
    1970 WC Quarterfinal
    I agree that the US will get good at player development one day but, in order to do that, we have to stop blindly copying UEFA - not European countries - but UEFA. Right now anything that UEFA does in the coaching community, we immediately adopt without discussion or reason. There is no talk about what is best to do, no talk about why we are making a change, just constant changing of the rules so that we are more aligned with UEFA. Our coaching community can only be a sort of “UEFA light” if we don’t start thinking for ourselves.

    We are developing our own culture very slowly, but sometimes having structures - like, in this case UEFA - already in place can work against your development because people in bureaucracies often don’t feel safe disagreeing with more established bureaucracies, despite the fact that innovation in Europe happens at the club level, solving real problems in front of them, not in UEFA.
     
  24. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    #874 SUDano, Apr 21, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
    No country gets better by outsourcing development. True development is building a soccer culture that includes developing talent. If we're so bad at development then why are our youth players and much of our professional youth wanted by European teams. The real elephant in the room is we have an inferiority complex and a European superiority complex that creates wrong narratives. Europe isn't one country. Its many varied and diverse levels of quality of play. MLS and US soccer exists within those goalposts between the very best that Europe has to offer to its worst.
    MLS doesn't need to be avoided it exists to graduate from for the very best who have proven themselves.
     
  25. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    There's a separate thread for those all-encompassing DA discussions. This thread is for discussion of the football being played this season in the DA.
     

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