Sure..................but they typically don't have many kids playing "up a cycle" unless there's a clear need for it. Ramos was already playing a central midfielder up a cycle with Tyler Adams. An example with this recent U20 team is that we really had very few forwards in their natural cycle that were performing at the club level (particularly if Wright wasn't available). So Ramos dug into the U17 group to call up Josh Sargent. U20 World Cup rosters are only 21 players and 3 of those have to be goalkeepers. So there only 18 field players. What I'm trying to say is that there are very few slots available and a lot of good prospects are simply going to be left off the team. At no point did any of us think he was going to leave off de la Torre or Zelalem in order to take Gonzalez. So Jonathan will have to wait his turn. And seeing as Gonzalez had been a part of that U20 cycle, including being named to the CONCACAF Championships team, we can't say that Ramos "missed him." He simply selected others instead that weren't available for the CONCACAF Championships (for instance Zelalem). There are quite a lot of future USMNT players that never got U20 caps. We can say the coaching staffs "missed" them.
I think you tend to underrate or overrate players you've determined to be the next big things or not at 17 years old, ignoring small samples, competition, fallibility of evaluator, and the reality players can improve rapidly after that point from physical and mental maturation. Gonzalez isn't just a guy getting an opportunity and just ol' anywhere either. He's a guy who has played well as a starter for an extended period for Monterrey, the top team in the Mexican League, and he does it with quickness and frenetcism that theoretically fits our style as well. That creates a positive outlook for an 18 year old in our pool. Hell, it may be for a 28 year old in our pool. Adams was just a guy who was getting opportunities, and now he's thriving too. It's a good problem to have all these promising young center mids in our pool between Gonzalez, Adams, Roldan, and McKennie; who can all make compelling cases as to why they're the next men up to make impacts.
Why are we so sure that Ramos made such a big oversight? I definitely would now prefer Gonzalez over someone like Jones or Williamson, but I still am not sure that with our best midfield that he's any more than like the 4th midfielder. Using hindsight of the best possible CM (assuming everyone's fit), McKennie, Parks, Adams have spots in that midfield IMO, some combination of Zelalem, Mihailovic, Gonzalez, Lindley battles for one spot. Could also use EPB in that spot, although I'd still list him as a CB, and only use him there, if needed. As Clint mentioned, very few players play up a cycle. Even with Gonzalez's playing time for Monterrey, Gonzalez might not be up for that challenge. Ramos didn't think so.
To quote you, shrug. Ramos's job is not to be smarter than fans. Ramos's job is to put the best team available on the field and compete. Obviously he did not do that. While the fans freaked out about some of the attackers Ramos left out, his midfield selections were just as bad. Adams ran himself into the ground and had to be subbed out due to exhaustion against Venezuela. Had better midfielders like McKennie and Gonzalez been selected, the US has plenty of cover, rotation, and has a real shot to go further in the tournament. Saying "We missed it, too" does not excuse Ramos for being bad at his job.
Maybe thats what you think, but I am not assuming anything. I've watched some of Gonzalez before and after his first team playing time, I don't see any improvements, I see a kid thats getting a chance (a deserved chance) at a higher level. I don't know if you remember, but during preseason James Sands was doing really well, you told me that he's becoming one of the best prospects in his age group, and I disagreed. I said he wouldn't play much this season in MLS and people would mostly forget about him (unfortunately, I wish he did get tons of playing time). Thats exactly what happened, he's barely played, barely talked about. I'm sure you've heard of Alejandro Zendejas, got first team playing time before Pulisic, McKennie, Wright, etc. If you want a LigaMX example, we can use Paul Arriola who debuted at the same age as Gonzalez is now, everyone was excited (I think I even compared him to Donovan), and while he's turned into a NT caliber player, he's a limited player who has not turned into a NT star. And I'm not saying Gonzalez is bad, i like his game, I think he might eventually be a NT player. I personally just do not see him as an elite level talent like some have stated, whether he's holding his own or not. If he showed a higher level of talent (or incredible play for a player his age), I'd then adjust my assessment. I've adjusted my assessment on many players before. Did so on Acosta's (2X) who both struggled for YNT's, did so on Trapp who struggled for YNT's, and I'm starting to like Adams game more, I could keep going. I change my opinion when I have a different opinion than I previously had, but I don't think this is a situation where I should do so. Its really not that unusual that a talented young player would hold his own in a bad league. If he can't, he's probably not that good.
I'm not a fan of Ramos, but I think this is a bit unfair and contains some revisionist history. One reason why Adams was run into the ground is that a CM (Zelalem) blew out an ACL in the first game of the U20 WC. That's going to put a real strain on CM depth. McKennie was called up but Schalke wouldn't release him. It's not like he was ignored.
Fair point on Zelalem. The story on McKennie depends on who you ask. Schalke says they would have released him after the U-19s like they would any other player. Ramos felt that was not good enough and decided not to call him. Gonzalez was just a miss. Over time I think Ramos has proven he is not very good at evaluating defensive midfielders.
It wouldn't be the first time that Ramos didn't push hard enough in a less-than-clear-cut availability scenario. Walker Zimmerman had an unfortunately timed injury in 2013, but had returned to health by the WC. Ramos was in no rush to give him another shot and, as we all know, went with the inimitable Javan Torre instead.
You're free to believe what you want, but that's not what Ramos has said repeatedly. Neither McKennie nor Gonzalez were "ignored." Ramos called up a 17 year old Gonzalez to the U20 CONCACAF Champions when he could have called up any number of more "well known" options. In fact, many of the youth watchers were very surprised that he did include Gonzalez as we had never seen him. And the few chances we did get to see him, he didn't stand out. So Ramos is being blamed for "missing" Gonzalez when he seemed to be one of the few that didn't "miss" Gonzalez. By the way, here's @bshredder 's interview with Ramos that was published yesterday. Some tidbits about Gonzalez and McKennie in there. Most notably that Ramos is in biweekly contact with Gonzalez and Bruce Arena has talked to him as well. http://americansoccernow.com/articles/u-20-boss-tab-ramos-loves-his-job-extends-contract
FYI, here is what Gonzalez actually said about Tab Ramos in his own words on July 31, 2017 after he had 3 starts for Monterrey "“Being under Tab Ramos is an honor because of all the experience and knowledge he has." Yeah, it sounds like he is really angry about how everything is playing out right now with Tab. As for McKennie, Tab couldn't get him. They could not have gotten him after the U-19 Bundesliga season because Schalke then decided to call him up to the first team for his Bundesliga debut for the final game of the season. That was already well after the U-20 World Cup began. It was a 100% fact that Tab tried hard to get McKennie for the 2017 World Cup. It just didn't work out. Tab tried to get McKennie released starting the week after the CONCACAF qualifying. In fact, he thought he had a deal to get McKennie released the week before the WC. But that is when the first team Bundesliga debut became a reality if Schalke's U-19 were eliminated.
Facts are boring. We on Big Soccer much prefer believing that our USYNT coaches and scouts are incompetent boobs. Also, why should we expect our USYNT coaches to have 100% track records when it comes to player evaluation? They're going to make selection mistakes. They're going to include kids that don't advance, and they're going to miss out on kids that develop into senior national teamers. That's as true for Argentina and Spain as it is for the United States. I understand that second-guessing USYNT coaches is one of our favorite past-times. I would like the criticisms to be based on actual facts, though. Javan Torre was selected for the 2013 U20 World Cup team over any number of guy. That's a fact ! By the way, that much-maligned 2013 U20 team drew with France. Anybody checked out that France roster recently? Egads, its an all-star roster. Pogba, Umtiti, Digne, Kondogbia, Thauvin, Areola, Zouma.........the list goes on. They brought Feretout (now at Fiorentia) off the bench! We started Javan Torre............... Loved your interview with Tab. Lots of good stuff in there.
If people really expect any youth coach to never miss players, then they are going to be extremely disappointed no matter who the coach is. Yeah, Javan Torre over Walker Zimmerman wasn't good and was probably Tab's worst decision because that 2013 team had bad defense to begin with (it was his worst because it was bad at the time, not just in hindsight). But that doesn't get people that angry because Walker is in MLS. It's the same with Joel Sonora over Cristian Roldan! Or Alonso Hernandez over Jordan Morris! Sure Tab has had a few others who had strong cases (Mihailovic). Overall, he's identified most of the best talent for each birth year and his "misses" seem to be improving every cycle. But regarding Gonzalez, he is eligible for the 2019 U-20 team. I don't really think people should be getting worked up for a player who didn't make a U-20 team while playing up a cycle. Hell, even Gonzalez 1) doesn't seem worked up about not making the 2017 WC team, 2) is actually excited about the next U-20 team, 3) and actually likes Ramos (and Ramos likes Gonzalez too).
It's about what everybody thinks that have observed him. He's made a team of the week. Has good advanced stats, in so far as they're available for LigaMX. And his coach didn't just give him an opportunity. He stuck afterward and has started every meaningful game for an extended period. The coach even suggested it would be in Mexico's interest to poach him. So he played about as much as Carleton, Durkin, Pomykol, and Cannon then. He's 16-17 on a team with Ring, Herrera, McNamara, and Pirlo in cm. As if it means anything about Sands' future. Unless it does about the other players you did take a liking to. I never even purported to be a big fan of Sands, just pointed out emerging that early paints a positive outlook. You pretty much want to write him off because you didn't like a few games you saw of him as a kid against fellow kids. As if youth team performance, especially that early, and in small samples, have proven great predictors of future success. Citing his p.t. this year, while neglecting the criteria for others around his age, shows heavy confirmation bias. Zendejas played 50 minutes for Chivas, and Arriola was entrenched as a bunch player until he was about 21. Talk about false equivalents to Gonzalez. Arriola is even a borderline starter for the nt now, as if that would be some kind of big indictment then. 4-5 cm's can make the case of "elite" cm prospect right now. All have different cases to make for them if you break it down. There's no limit on amount. Don't need to lower the value of one to prop up that of another like I keep seeing. Speaking of Trapp, you still put him on nt rosters, even when the game is must win. That's maybe exhibit A of locking in. Has underwhelmed internationally u-23 and above and settled in to being a mediocre MLS starter.
Didn't say any of that. Come on, you know that. I think what I said is pretty straight forward. Sands is not going to play yet, check back in a year or two. I never said I don't like his game or anything like that. In fact I showed proof where I was pretty much the only person in the past giving the guy credit. Somehow not thinking he was going to play this year means I dislike him? I can't think of much of a precedent for players of his caliber starting in MLS at age 16. And my point here is not that you were wrong or I was right, it is that Sands was doing well in preseason, but as I've said many times, many players can do well in preseason, we shouldn't think of a player holding their own in MLS or LigaMX as some big accomplishment, that should be the expectation for any half decent youngster. You are missing the point on Zendejas. He was playing first team minutes before all those guys, didn't make him more elite than Pulisic and co. He was holding his own and he was a player with potential to play for the USMNT or Mexican National Team (still does), but it was rather obvious to anyone who watched that he was not on the level of other players in his age group, regardless of what playing time he was getting. I am not comparing Zendejas and Gonzalez as players, just using the example that getting first team playing time at a young age does not elevate where you stand within your age group. Why would it? The Arriola example is actually pretty similar, in terms of age at which they started getting LigaMX minutes and their status prior to their first team playing time. I got fooled by Arriola's first team playing time into thinking he was going to be a star, when his talent was not that of a star player. A good player, and its not a bad thing that he has become a NT player, but he has limited talent, and will not become a NT star, whether he is being called up or not. I think everyone can tell that. All I'm saying here is that the same might be true of Gonzalez. And maybe not, I'm not saying he'll only have a Paul Arriola type of career, I don't know, but I do not view him as a top tier level young player. There have been many in the past who have gotten early playing time who have not turned into NT stars. Thats your opinion. I view the situation differently. If we had 50 elite youngsters (4-5 at every position), I think that would be great, but I personally do not think thats the case. Maybe thats not what you are saying, and we are saying the same thing, but in a different way. I watch these players as much as I can, whether its the YNT's, NT, players for their club first teams, players at youth club level. I can only give my assessment on the situation of all these players. I do not think we have 4-5 CM's who are future stars. Maybe we have 4-5 who could be stars in the best case scenario for their game, but whats the point thinking about best case scenarios instead of more realistic scenarios? You are contradicting yourself here. So somehow we should not take into account that Gonzalez was like the 22nd or 23rd man for Ramos U-20 WCQ team, and wasn't even close to contention for the U-20 WC team, meanwhile the team had players like Adams (same age) struggling in qualifying and the U-20 WC, yet he made the team, and also had rather average players in the grand scheme of things like Williamson, Jones making the U-20 WC team over Gonzalez. You want to say that doesn't matter, but somehow it matters that Trapp struggled in youth matches below the level of the level he plays at with his club team? I don't really care if someone struggles at youth level. Its something to consider, of course, but if you show something drastically different, like Acosta (both), Delgado, Trapp have shown from youth tournaments they struggled in, I don't know why there would be any reason to not change my opinion. And I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that Trapp is a mediocre MLS starter. I think he's a well above average MLS starter. He's the best passer in the league, and very underrated defensively. He doesn't accumulate the same number of goals, and runs forward and key passes, the stats that will show up in those Audi Index and WhoScored, websites that capture flash plays from players at certain positions, but thats due to the role he plays for his team. I think many don't realize that he's been used for a few years as basically a third CB in possession, with very few exceptions. Hard to accumulate those flash plays when thats your role. But he plays a vital role for a team that got to the final two years ago, and is looking like a playoff team again this season.
So far: MLS: Tyler Adams(18), Justin Glad(20) LigaMx: Jonathan Gonzalez(18) Europe: Weston McKennie(18)
I'd add Haji Wright (19) to the Europe list. Been mostly a starter so far, and is doing relatively well. I read an interview the other day where the Schalke Sporting Director was complimentary of how he's started out his loan.
My belief is there is more than one side to a story. What the staff at Schalke said to me a couple weeks ago is that Ramos did not try that hard. My guess? Some truth to both sides. Two ways of looking at this: (1) Gonzalez dramatically improved in the few months between Tab not selecting him for the U20 team and the start of the Monterrey season. (2) Tab missed him. Better if we agree to disagree, but I do truly admire your consistent defense of US Soccer coaching. Who said he was? He has always seemed excited about the opportunity to represent the US.
Another wonderful performance from Tyler Adams yesterday for NYRB. Both he and Glad should be at January camp........................................ This pass to BWP was a thing of beauty (I think that's Tyler) Threading the needle. #NYvVAN pic.twitter.com/knPdruDkJK— Major League Soccer (@MLS) October 7, 2017
Meanwhile a fantastic team goal just now for the US U17s against Paraguay. Great build-up by the team finished off by Weah of PSG. Here's the build-up to the Weah goal. Carleton's layoff to Vassilev creates the space and time to make that pass. pic.twitter.com/LeteWnGxuj— J.R. Eskilson (@JREskilson) October 16, 2017
The "breakout" of these youngsters to the senior team should be accelerated due to recent events These kids are on the young side, but there a number of potential "next Pulisic's" in the group. FT: USA 5-0 Paraguay. U.S. will play winner of England/Japan in the quarterfinal of the U17 World Cup on Saturday, Oct. 21 at 7:30 am (PT)— J.R. Eskilson (@JREskilson) October 16, 2017
I think it was an improvement when we lost Zelalem, sure he is a good passer but as the tourney progressed it was noticeable that we needed an enforcer like Jones. Mckennie was invited but his club didn't let him go. I don't believe Gonzales was even on the radar. Gonzales and Mckennie kind of play the same role but I think we will need that at first when we are trying to get acclimated with so many young ones. I think Adams is so athletic that he may be our future utility knife. Gonzales and Adams are beyond the U20 group, that ship has sailed.
The Subotic story is not that cut and dry, Subotic himself said he wasn't happy with the team's chemistry, he complained that too many players were talking Spanish in the locker room. Take it for what is worth.
Zelalem was never a complete package, sure people were involved by his passing game but the kid lack size and speed to be a top prospect even for us. Zelalem doesn't like to defend and in our team all players must be able to defend.