2015 U.S. Open Cup schedule

Discussion in 'US Open Cup' started by newtex, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Country:
    United States
    Two years or six games, whichever is greater.. If the Sounders get bounced in their first game for the next 6 years, it could be 7 years before Dempsey can play in USOC.
     
  2. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Blanco's supension was similar.

    I doubt Dempsey will be playing in 2022.
     
  3. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    Sometimes I wonder how these bans carry over if a player switches teams / countries / leagues.
     
  4. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Well, if Dempsey were to move to a US Open Cup-eligible team, that takes care of itself. If he were to move to another league in another country, I would imagine his clock would be paused, and if he ever returned to the States, he'd still have to serve it. I don't think it's a situation where he could go play in Europe for three more years and come back and be considered to have served his time.

    I know we have seen situations where a guy was red-carded in one year's tournament, switched teams within this country and had to serve an Open Cup suspension the next year (I think they actually missed one a couple years back, which led to them publishing a List Of The Damned). I would not expect you could go to Mexico and pop right back in three years later and be Cup-eligible.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  5. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    Of course, figured that out if he moved to another USA league.

    If he moved to another country, would he then be suspended for whatever their cup tournament is? (Noting that Canada, Europe, and Africa also award continental tournament bids to their cup winners.)

    And I remember the "Damned List." It was fun looking that up every year. (Wish they still published it.) There were several "Mid-" Michigan Bucks on that list. Also contained entries like, "was suspended for three matches; served two in Open Cup qualifiers; third must be an Open Cup match."
     
  6. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    Would the FA uphold an American suspension, do you think? If, for some reason, Dempsey went back over, could you see them saying "No, you can't play in the FA Cup?"
     
  7. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    I agree with you that all pro teams should be in the cup (I think the USSF has mandated this), but I would like to see more amateur teams play the professional teams (mainly speaking of MLS sides). Sure you'll get 6-1 results, but that is part of it.

    Qualifying rounds should only include amateur sides.

    First round proper should have 64 clubs. This year it would have had the 47 professional clubs, plus 17 amateur qualifiers.

    The tournament then progresses to the 2nd Round, 3rd Round, Quaterfinals, Semifinals, and Final. The draw procedure used for this year's "round of 16" draw could be used from the beginning.

    Using this year as an example, the dates could('ve) been:

    R1 May 6
    R2 May 20
    R3 June 17
    QF July 22
    SF August 12
    Final September 30

    When the number of professional clubs increase to a point where the amateur clubs are squeezed out just add another round.

    R1: Amateur teams vs. a mix of USL/NASL (maybe have MLS-2 sides enter hear regardless)
    R2: R1 winners vs. remaining USL/NASL, along with MLS teams
    And so on
     
  8. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    An undesirable part of it.

    Amateur clubs were 65-199-16 vs. pro clubs from 1996-2014.

    We don't need more of those matchups. We have plenty.
     
  9. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Ok, cap at it 24, or so, for the amateur teams. I'm thinking a few years ahead, say around 2020, but have them play the MLS-2 teams in a first round.

    Obviously need numbers to work, so

    I don't think there would be much of a difference in the results, but what's the record the last 2, 3, 5 years? For comparison sake, what's the record for Conference level and below vs. EPL/Championship teams in the FA Cup? Are our PDL/USASA/NPSL clubs performing the same?
     
  10. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Since both Charlotte and the Cosmos have been eliminated, and they were the last of the lower division teams left in the competition. Here's the final update of my ever popular* league ELO rankings for 2015.

    *not at all true

    Some basic info, for those who want it:
    1. These rankings use all USOC games since 1996 to determine the relative strengths of the leagues. The names used below just represent the current names of leagues at that level. In reality the leagues have changed around a lot, and what is now NASL used to be USL D-1, and the A League before it. Similarly for all the other levels.
    2. There are bound to be mistakes back in the history, but the beauty of ELO rankings is that they are self-correcting over time, so the "actual strengths" probably aren't too far off from this right now, even with errors in older competitions.
    3. The actual results used are as follows:
    a. Game finishes in regulation with a result: goals scored
    b. Game finishes after extra time with a result: goals scored
    c. Game goes to penalty kicks: goals scored before the penalty kicks. The game is "recorded" as a tie.
    4. A home team has its rating raised by 100, and the change in ratings for each of the teams is calculated based on the result of the game, and the relative difference between the two ratings. This means that currently, we would expect an NASL team hosting an MLS team to be slightly in favor of the MLS team, but not significantly so.
    5. The average change in score for any individual game is about 7. This means that one league goes up by 7, and the other down by 7.
    6. There is no way to account for the fact that many MLS teams play 'B' or 'C' sides in the first few rounds they participate. I can only base it on the teams fielded.

    RoundMLSNASLUSLPDLNPSLUSASA/etc
    2014177416401576137713331301
    R1177416401576137313141324
    R2177416401569135613051357
    R3177415861633134313021363
    R4179315841616134313021362
    2015180015801612134313021362


    As mentioned up top, the last of the lower division sides have been eliminated, so the rest of the games can't impact the ratings at all, making these numbers final. MLS made some minimal gains, USL made a bit more than that, and USASA made up a whole lot of ground. NASL, PDL, and NPSL all suffered due to those gains. It's important to recognize that these rankings are purely relative. What is likely is that there was a bit of bad luck, and also the other leagues increased in quality much moreso than those three, but they all likely increased in quality.
     
  11. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    My bad, I was doing the math really quickly on my way out the door before and also just added this year's results (in which amateurs went 3-20-1 against pros).

    Amateur clubs (PDL, NPSL, USASA, US Club, etc.) are actually 51-210-14 against professional clubs since 1996 in the Open Cup.

    vs. Level..........GP....W....L....T....Pct.
    vs. Division I.....33....4...27....2...0.152
    vs. Division II....83...11...69....3...0.151
    vs. Division III..159...36..114....9...0.255
    TOTAL.............275...51..210...14...0.211


    275 of these matchups in 20 years is an average of just under 14 a year. And the bulk of them (and the bulk of the amateur wins) are against DIII squads.

    This is not something we need more of. The actual compelling matchups in the Open Cup, barring a Cinderella amateur run a la the SF Bay Seals in '97, are in the middle of the sandwich. Now that we're to an all-MLS quarterfinal round, it's not terribly interesting, and the early rounds aren't terribly interesting. It's the lower-level pro teams against pro teams from levels above them that generate actual interest (and stupid, stupid tweets).
     
  12. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    For competitive purposes you're spot on...the less amateur teams the better. So I don't think we're actually having a debate, per se. Competitive (and quality) reasons is why I watch/attend MLS games and don't bother to drive 10-15 minutes to see my local PDL club play league games.

    I watch the FA Cup to see the smaller clubs (amateur or pro) play the bigger clubs, which is what draws me to the USOC. Take that away (which you're not advocating) and I'll lose interest. If the NCAA basketball playoffs didn't have a Cinderella (which is truly rarer than people think) then it wouldn't be as popular.

    At the moment it doesn't make sense, more financially then competitively, for MLS clubs to enter the USOC earlier. I don't even think it makes financial sense for them to enter at all.

    Short and long term I'll take an early round, or two, of amateur, DII, DIII teams playing each other. But to make it a true National Championship, which the USOC is, MLS clubs need to enter earlier then they have. For me that would be the "Round of 64."
     
  13. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    I'd rather have all teams have a longer average run in the US Open Cup than MLS teams be forced to play more games.

    Excluding the preliminary round, there are 42 teams in amateur leagues: 12 NPSL, 19 PDL, 9 USASA, and 2 of {1 USCS, 2 USASA, 1 USSSA}. Based on this year's results:

    Amateur teams:
    • The first round is entirely amateur vs. amateur, so half of the teams stop there, for 21*1 + (advancing teams).
    • The second round, when going against USL, 4 of the remaining 21 advanced further, meaning 17 did not. We are now at 21*1 + 17*2 + (advancing teams).
    • The third round, the two amateur teams who faced non-amateur teams lost, and the other two remaining teams played each other, meaning one advanced. We are now at 21*1 + 17*2 + 3*3 + (advancing team).
    • The remaining team was eliminated in the 4th round. Leaving us with ( 21*1 + 17*2 + 3*3 + 1*4 ) / 42 teams, for an average of 1.62 games a piece.
    USL
    • The second round, 17 of the 21 USL teams advanced, meaning 4 did not. 4*1 + (advancing teams).
    • The third round, 12 of the remaining 17 teams advanced, meaning 5 did not. 4*1 + 5*2 + (advancing teams).
    • The fourth round, one 1 team advanced, meaning 11 did not. 4*1 + 5*2 + 11*3 + (advancing team).
    • The last remaining USL team was eliminated in the 5th round. Leaving us with (4*1 + 5*2 + 11*3 + 1*4) / 21 teams, for an average of 2.43 games a piece.
    NASL
    • The third round, 2 of the 9 NASL teams advanced, meaning 7 did not. 7*1 + (advancing teams).
    • The fourth round, 1 of the 2 remaining teams advanced. 7*1 + 1*2 + (advancing team).
    • The last remaining NASL team was eliminated in the 5th round. Leaving us with (7*1 + 1*2 + 1*3) / 9 teams, for an average of 1.33 games a piece.
    MLS
    • The fourth round, 14 of the 17 MLS teams advanced, meaning 3 did not. 3*1 + (advancing teams).
    • The fifth round, 8 of the remaining 14 teams advanced, meaning 6 did not. 3*1 + 6*2 + (advancing teams).
    • The remaining rounds eliminate 4, 2, 2 teams. Leaving us with (3*1 + 6*2 + 4*3 + 2*4 + 2*5) / 17 teams, for an average of 2.65 games a piece.

    The simplest way to have a round of 64, while not having fewer amateur teams is this:
    MLS and NASL enter in the round of 64. 76 teams enter one round before, 21 from USL, 55 amateur. Assuming they continue with preferential matchups (new teams in a round must face a team advancing from a previous round), and assuming they make it so that the 21 USL teams can't face each other, I hypothesize it would go like this:

    NOTE: THIS IS ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL, BUT CHANGING IT SLIGHTLY DOESN'T IMPACT THE END RESULTS BY MUCH.

    First round
    21 USL match up with 21 amateur, the remaining 34 amateur face each other in 17 matches.
    17/21 USL teams advance, with 4 amateur from those matchups, and 17 from the other matchups.
    USL: 4*1 + (17 advancing teams)
    Amateur: 34*1 + (21 advancing teams)

    Second round
    17 MLS and 9 NASL cannot face each other. This leaves 6 matches (12 teams) unpaired from the previous round. I put it like this, 2 matches USLvUSL, 2 matches AmvAm, 2 matches USLvAm, using 6 teams from each, leaving 11 USL and 15 Amateur teams to match up against the new entries.
    There are about twice as many MLS as NASL teams. So 10 Am vs. MLS, and 5 Am vs. NASL. 7 USL vs. MLS, 4 USL vs. NASL.
    Amateur: Being generous to Amateur teams, 2 advance from AmvAm, 1 from USLvAm, 1 from MLSvAm, and 1 from NASLvAm. 34*1 + 16*2 + (5 advancing teams).
    USL: 1 advance from USLvAm, 2 from USLvUSL, 1 from USL vs. MLS, 2 from USLvNASL. 4*1 + 11*2 + (6 advancing teams)
    NASL: 4 advance from NASLvAm, 2 from NASLvUSL. 3*1 + (6 advancing teams)
    MLS: 9 advance from MLSvAm, 6 advance from MLSvUSL. 2*1 + (15 advancing teams)

    Third round
    5 Am, 6 USL, 6 NASL, 15 MLS (breakdown 5 each vs. MLS, 1 USLvNASL)
    Amateur: None advance, (34*1 + 16*2 + 5*3) / 55 teams = 1.47 games a piece (less than current)
    USL: 1 advance from USLvMLS, none from USLvNASL, 4*1 + 11*2 + 5*3 + (1 advancing team).
    NASL: 1 advance from NASLvMLS, 1 from NASLvUSL, 3*1 + 4*2 + (2 advancing teams).
    MLS: 5 advance from MLSvAm, 4 each from vUSL and vNASL. 2*1 + 2*2 + (13 advancing teams).

    Fourth round
    Remaining USL and NASL teams lose
    Amateur: None advance, (34*1 + 16*2 + 5*3) / 55 teams = 1.47 games a piece (less than current)
    USL: None advance, (4*1 + 11*2 + 5*3 + 1*4) / 21 teams = 2.14 games a piece (less than current).
    NASL: None advance, (3*1 + 4*2 + 2*3) / 9 teams = 1.89 games a piece (more than current, but they also underperformed this year).
    MLS: 8 advance. 2*1 + 2*2 + 5*3 + (8 advancing teams).

    Remaining, MLS teams are eliminated in further rounds like this 4, 2, 2.
    MLS: (2*1 + 2*2 + 5*3 + 4*4 + 2*5 + 2*6) / 17 teams = 3.47 games a piece, almost an entire game more per team on average.

    TL;DR, you don't improve the number of games Amateur teams have in the US Open Cup, but significantly increase the number of games that MLS teams will have to play. That's why we don't have the MLS teams enter in a round of 64.
     
    blacksun repped this.
  14. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    #114 SJJ, Jul 2, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
    OK, so since the schedule is pretty much done for this year, this thread has morphed into a "what is your format proposal" thread.

    Here is the breakdown of this year's tournament, by US-Adult region, and league:

    Region I - 25
    • MLS - 5
    • NASL - 1
    • USL - 5
    • Amateur - 14
      • NPSL - 4
      • PDL - 7
      • US-Adult - 3
    Region II - 14
    • MLS - 3
    • NASL - 2
    • USL - 2
    • Amateur - 7
      • NPSL - 2
      • PDL - 2
      • US-Adult - 3
    Region III - 25
    • MLS - 3
    • NASL - 6
    • USL - 6
    • Amateur - 10
      • NPSL - 4
      • PDL - 4
      • US-Adult - 2
    Region IV - 27
    • MLS - 6
    • USL - 8
    • Amateur - 13
      • NPSL - 2
      • PDL - 6
      • US-Adult - 3
      • US-Club - 1
      • US-Specialty - 1
    Grand Total - 91

    I would like to maybe keep the brackets regional until the SF's (and by that I mean actually regional, not shipping any teams outside their region).

    And one point of that, for those who want to create a 64-team "main draw," (with likely a pre-round) is that the Midwest doesn't even have 16 teams of their own. (But they also have, by far, the least amount of amateur teams.)

    And one other point, is that I would like as many lower-division teams play MLS teams, as possible. This year, only 15 "lowers" got to play MLS teams (one fewer than last year). In a 64-team main draw [using the regions], there could be (17 in R-64) + (11 in R-32) + (2 in R-16) = 30 matchups of MLS -v- lower (assuming the MLS teams win all matches in the first two rounds).

    [aside] wow, the NASL doesn't have any teams in the West. I wonder if anyone had ever noticed that. [/aside]
     
  15. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    QUARTERFINALS
    Home team first. Times are ET.

    Tuesday, July 14
    Real Salt Lake v. LA Galaxy 8:00 pm

    Tuesday, July 21
    NY Red Bulls v. Philadelphia Union 4:00 pm
    Sporting Kansas City v. Houston Dynamo 8:30 pm

    Wednesday, July 22
    Chicago Fire v. Orlando City 8:30 pm

    SEMIFINALS
    August 11-12.

    EAST
    PHI/NYR winner v. CHI/ORL winner

    WEST
    SKC/HOU winner v. RSL/LAG winner
     
  16. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    CORRECTION

    QUARTERFINALS

    Home team first. Times are ET.

    Tuesday, July 14
    Real Salt Lake v. LA Galaxy 10:00 pm

    Tuesday, July 21
    NY Red Bulls v. Philadelphia Union 4:00 pm
    Sporting Kansas City v. Houston Dynamo 8:30 pm

    Wednesday, July 22
    Chicago Fire v. Orlando City 8:30 pm

    SEMIFINALS
    August 11-12.

    EAST
    PHI/NYR winner v. CHI/ORL winner

    WEST
    SKC/HOU winner v. RSL/LAG winner
     
  17. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Semifinals:

    Tuesday, August 11
    Philadelphia Union v. Chicago Fire 7:30 pm

    Wednesday, August 12
    Sporting Kansas City v. Real Salt Lake 8:30 pm
     
  18. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    and the final has kicked off.

    Taylor Twelmen mentioned a rule that only five international players may be on a team's roster.

    According to the Finalists Handbook: http://www.ussoccer.com/lamar-hunt-...usoc/2015-open-cup-handbook-finalists-edition

    Section 203. Player eligibility
    (a) Teams entering the Open Cup shall use their official league roster as their Open Cup roster. Except as specified in this Policy or except as the result of discipline matters imposed by U.S. Soccer, all players on an official league roster will be eligible for Open Cup competition, regardless of any status (e.g. injured reserve) each player may have with regard to league competition. Players on loan from another team or league may not be included on an Open Cup roster, with the exception of the following: 1) Loaned players originating from teams competing in leagues that are not active participants in the Open Cup Tournament or qualifying process (professional indoor leagues, foreign clubs, etc.); or 2) players on loan from other US clubs for a period of greater than 90 days. A team may list up to 18 players on its game day roster. Professional teams may have no more than 5 foreign players listed. Amateur teams are not restricted as to the number of foreign players they may list. Foreign players shall be those players who are not protected individuals as defined in 8 U.S.C. § 1324b (e.g. U.S. Citizens, lawful permanent residents, asylees and refugees).
     
  19. olujosh

    olujosh Member

    Aug 23, 1999
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Country:
    United States
    Yup. I've been waiting for someone (other than Hollywood United's failed attempt a few years back) for someone to recruit a bunch of recently retired pros and just put together an "amateur" team with unlimited foreign players :)
     
  20. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    #120 SJJ, Sep 30, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
    Wow.... Hollywood United. I know it wasn't that long ago, but you just want to sit back, give a good chuckle, and say, "Man, those were the days, huh." Was run by that guy from Fox Sports World, right?

    And I do remember some AAU ("Amateur" Athletic Union) basketball teams that were made up of former NBA players (titled like "Name of Car Dealership Select," like those Asian soccer teams), having exhibitions against college teams.
     
  21. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    Taylor just mentioned that USSoccer needs to promote this tournament more. Geez, why didn't we think of that, Josh?
     
  22. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    Reading the article on Philadelphia in the US Open Cup Finals history: http://thecup.us/2015/09/30/the-history-of-philadelphia-and-the-us-open-cup-final/

    Interesting headline in that 1936 Philly Enquirer: "German Americans Capture Title; Germans make Bold Thrust at Shamrocks' Goal; Germans Brush Aside St. Louis Shamrocks; 5000 Fans Philadelphia Booters Score over Missouri Rivals, 3 to 0, and Become Eligible to Represent this Country in Olympics; Gain $2500, Dewar Trophy"

    More than a few interesting tidbits in this headline: I've never heard of soccer players called Booters. Was this an Olympic qualifying tournament, for some reason? Pretty good prize money for those days.
     
  23. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    2015 tournament is in the books.

    Now, looking far ahead to 2022 (if FIFA is still in business by then): http://www.espnfc.us/fifa-world-cup/story/2630641

    Says that the September international matchdays will move from early in the month to start on the 20th. Now, one idea popular on these forums is to have the Cup Final on Labor Day weekend. This change will allow for the match to be scheduled for that weekend.
     
    EvanJ repped this.

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