2015 Gold Cup (R)

Discussion in 'Gold Cup' started by Sebsasour, Aug 11, 2014.

  1. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

    Aug 23, 2006
    Donde siempre
    Wow...have you actually read anything he's posted? He has repeatedly told you he doesn't believe the GC would be as profitable outside of the US. That is not the point he is arguing.
     
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  2. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    No he actually did state that.

     
  3. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

    Aug 23, 2006
    Donde siempre
    Uhhh...you might want to reread what you quoted. He did not say the GC would be as profitable outside of the US as it is in the US. He said it could still be profitable (aka, not lose money), which is 100% correct.
     
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  4. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    assumption that a Gold cup not in the US will lose money

    He says it is an assumption that it will not lose money
     
  5. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

    Aug 23, 2006
    Donde siempre
    Exactly.

    Which does not mean "it will make just as much money as in the US".

    Seriously, this is not that hard.
     
  6. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    If he that that it will not lose money held outside the US, that means it just much as much will be made. They will lose money if not held in the USA.

    Serious question: Maybe we are confusing each other. I am working on the idea that by saying lose money, CCAF will not make whatever millions they were making and make less money.
    Are you working of the idea that loss money implies unprofitable? Because I have never said that. I have always said that they will lose money in terms of what they have been making, I gave an example of a 20% lost previously.
     
  7. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    He made it pretty clear a few times that he understood the tournament would make less money if it was hosted outside of the US
     
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  8. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    Must have been too busy frothing at the mouth at statements like this.

    Your right there are just an incredible number of coincidences pointing in the direction of match-fixing but no proof. I can't wait for when the match-fixing goes against Mexico, I wonder if you will come to your sense then.

    Also people have been convicted of murder with no body, gun or both if the number of coincidences were too much for a jury to ignore.
     
  9. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Country:
    Mexico
    This whole post proves that reading isnt your strongsuit.

    Jajaja, speak for yourself, bud.

    Keywords- coincidences, and no proof.

    When Mexico gets wrong calls called, i don't immediately put on my tinfoil hat and spew a bunch of nonsense like you.

    Oh god, I hope you never persue a career in Law.
     
  10. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    The fact that you dismiss a call that ties and wins the game in the last minute as just a wrong call, shows your one-eyed nature.

    For years people have thought FIFA was corrupt with no proof then the US DOJ proved it. So keep your head in the sand and then when it is proven acted shocked like all the signs were not there.

    I actual studied Business instead of Law which probably why I can understand the concept of not willing to lose money on a GC outside of the US.
     
  11. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Country:
    Mexico
    Ok, you think im biased, I agree. And so are you, clearly.

    Second paragraph continues prove my point that reading is hard for you.

    You studied business!? And you cant grasp the the concept that revenue loss doesnt necessarily equal profit loss? Do the world a favor and throw your degree in the trash.
     
  12. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    How am I bias? What am I bias against?

    I grasp that concept fine. I interpret telling someone they will take a loss on a project is different than saying that you will lose money on project A compared to B.

    In order to lose revenue and not have profits drop as well means a reduction in cost. Find someone to agree with you that hosting a tournament in Mexico means reduced costs. If anything it might mean more.

    Let's play a game called inference. It is a legal term. Tom Brady's phone was broken the same day he was suppose to meet with investigators about ball tempering. No proof he broke it but the phone is broken. One can infer that there was something on that phone he didn't want seen.

    Now you an organization proven to be corrupt and controversial calls changing and winning games leading to a big payday. Inferring there is match fixing isn't an insane leap.
     
  13. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010
    How will hosting it in Mexico cost more?
     
  14. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    I said it might mean more not will. I don't know what will or could cost more.
     
  15. Pønch

    Pønch Saprissista

    Aug 23, 2006
    Donde siempre
    Again, "not making as much money" is not the same as "losing money". What school gave you a business degree?
     
  16. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana

    OK, I will do my best to be polite. I always stated that CCAF would not make as much as they normally do. I interpreted his claim, which I
    never made, that the GC outside of the US would not be be profitable to be make less money. It is rather simple.

    Tthere use to bea drawbridge on the way to our club's field. The first
    guy there would send outan email that the bridge was down. Guys would show up and get Upset. Apparently to some guys brigde down meant down and not working as oppossed to down not up so it can be used.

    I used lose money in coparing a GC in US vs MX.
     
  17. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Country:
    Mexico
    1)JAJAJA You are clearly biased against anything that doesnt benefit the USMT or CCAF.

    2)So you are saying that you are just acting dumb?

    3)Again you are making points based on nothing but assumptions. How do you know that the only way for a cup to be profitable, outside the US, is for costs to be reduced? Fact is you dont. No matter what, you find an excuse as to why the Gold cup cant make money outside the US, and then you have the gall to say you are not biased.
    How about you show me why hosting a Cup in Mexico doesnt mean a reduced cost? If anything it might mean less.

    4)You can infer all you want, that doesnt mean its a fact. And again its not even clear that there was a fix in. Look this guy agrees with me.
    5)It's not an "insane leap" its just a Huuuuuuge leap.

    BTW I knew I had seen you post before. And since you like to quote people out of context.
    At least we cant say you are not a man of your word.
     
  18. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    Phone makes it hard to respond, will brb.
     
  19. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Country:
    Mexico
    Yay, you finally admit that you didnt understand the arguement. Thank god.
     
  20. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    First of all, whether or not there is, or was, match-fixing in the Gold Cup is irrelevant. Perception is reality and when you have two former presidents of CONCACAF indicted on criminal charges everything that happens within CONCACAF will be viewed with skepticism. Therefore, continuing to host the continental championship in the same country, with a fixed draw to ensure the top two preferred teams don't meet until the final, with those two countries winning the competition a combined total of 12 out of 13 times, and with none of the three North American teams even needing to play a qualifying game, doesn't help the legitimacy of the Gold Cup nor the interest or intrigue that a continental championship should provide. And what better way to indicate that nothing untowardly is going on then to have those two top teams play a one-game playoff for a spot in the next Confederations Cup in one of the biggest stadiums in a city with a huge immigrant population rather than a neutral venue? I mean that's what would happen anywhere else, right? If CONCACAF wants to bring back a North American championship where the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, play each other every year that's fine but they shouldn't continue to tarnish what's supposed to be the soccer centerpiece of the region. And that's why the Gold Cup will never have more than a regional interest and following despite the worldwide success of the Asian Cup and African Cup of Nations. It hasn't been developed, promoted, or marketed correctly and isn't considered legitimate despite having teams that are on par with African and Asian countries and with individual players that are just as good if not better.

    I have heard alot about how the competition should always be in the U.S. because that's where the biggest stadiums are and tickets can be sold at higher prices. I have to point out how short-sighted it is for anyone to look at just attendance when determining the success of the Gold Cup. I have three specific examples of how marketing and promoting something with a long-term view is clearly more important financially. Here are three examples that demonstrate how misleading attendance figures are:

    Would anyone make the case that MLS is a stronger league than the NBA or NHL despite MLS having a higher attendance average than both of those other leagues? Of course not because we know that there are many more people that follow the NBA and NHL. And to back that up, MLS recently signed a $720 million contract over an eight-year period while the NBA has a $2.6 billion per year television contract (9 year, $24 billion). That's why the average NBA player is a multi-billionaire and the average MLS player is lucky to get $50K a year.

    Secondly, there have been several posts on how it isn't feasible to host the Gold Cup in Central America or the Caribbean. Never mind that the Caribbean has already hosted a Cricket World Cup. A much better example is this year's African Nations Cup that was held on short notice in Equatorial Guinea when the original host, Morocco, pulled out due to the Ebola epidemic. Equatorial Guinea, with a population of less than one million, was able to host 16 teams in four stadiums. Three of these stadiums had seating of 8,000, 15,000, and 15,200. Despite all of that, the tournament was still very successful. That's because Africa has been able to figure out how to make the competition financially lucrative despite not having huge stadiums and not being able to charge $50 or more a ticket like they do in the U.S.. They have a compelling qualifying competition, with a legitimate draw, and elaborate opening and closing ceremonies. That's why the tournamnet has seven official sponsors, including Pepsi, Doritos, Nissan, and Samsung. Does anyone know the official sponsor of the Gold Cup? Jarritos. Yep, Jarritos. That's because the Gold Cup, despite being played in sold out non-soccer specific stadiums has no relevance to the rest of the world. There just isn't any interest. Even I admit that I half-heartedly watched a few of the group games and, after seeing the debacle known as the Mexico-Costa Rica match, just watched the highlights the rest of the way. I guess I sensed further screwjobs ahead and saved myself the time. And I live in the U.S.. And yet during the African Nations Cup I woke up early in the morning and went to pubs to watch the games and woke up in the middle of the night to watch Asian Cup games. Asia and Africa have turned their continental championships into must watch international soccer competitions with legitimate worldwide interest. That can hardly be said about the Gold Cup.

    Lastly to prove how insignificant attendance figures are you simply can look at past World Cups. World Cup tournaments always had good crowds and the final matches of distant World Cups had higher attendances than some of the most recent final matches. And yet FIFA was either losing money or breaking even on these tournaments. All of a sudden they discovered that by making the competitions more entertaining they could create big sponsorship and television rights deals. Nowadays you can host a World Cup in Russia or even Qatar and they'll still see revenue of upwards of $5 billion dollars. Even the qualifying draw is watched around the world. That's because they made the tournament more compelling. So for those that are worried that CONCACAF would go broke, there's nothing to worry about. FIFA has plenty to help every confederation and each national association gets $250K every year to develop the game and most underdeveloped associations get GOAL projects every five years or so worth $500K for footballing activities. The problem is that no one seems to care about growing the game in this region.

    So as long as CONCACAF keep doing the same things, they'll keep getting the same results. But it isn't my job to help them figure out what they need to do in order to get their house in order, unless they want to put me on their bloated payroll.
     
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  21. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    My argument has always been the CCAF would lose money or not make as much money it they held the GC outside of the US.
     
  22. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    1) I am not bias towards the US. I have problem with you saying the US has huge advantage. There is an advantage but it is in no way equal to what Mexico would have if the GC was held there.

    2) When I tell someone you if they take project A they will lose money compared to what they can make from project B, it is pretty clear. Only two people seem to be confused by the points I have been making for pages!!

    3) Again I have always said CCAF would lose money or make less profit hosting it outside the US. Since you are the one bitching for a change a move to Mexico, you show the figures, I have provided numbers and projections but that is not definitive enough to you, so why don't you provide something to be reviewed. The fact is you can't you are just one of these guys that complains but refuses to show proof and accept how the world works.

    4 &5) It is not to the level of a smoking gun but it is actually not a huge leap. Because another reporter for a legit magazine made the same inference. Not some weird pro US anti CCAF site on the web but Forbes magazine.

    You are quoting me out of context congrats on that!!
     
  23. PabloSanDiego

    PabloSanDiego Member

    West Ham United
    United States
    Jan 18, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Country:
    United States
    I saw this long post and my first thought was "I'm not reading that whole thing". I ended up reading it twice. Some really good points in there and some things I sort of knew or was thinking but the post clarified them In my mind. Good stuff with some more strategic long range thinking.
     
  24. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Ghana
    Great points and this is all I ask of good debater. Point of Clarification though the NBA league min is 500K so the Avg NBA player will be a millionaire at best.

    My point is you would need the fat cats at CCAF to take a smaller cut, ceteris paribus, in order to host the GC outside the US because they would make less money in profit. We could wish for them to do the right thing and do the things you state but they won't.
     
  25. MK3owner

    MK3owner Member

    Jul 26, 2010
    Kissimmee FL.
    Club:
    Deportivo Toluca FC
    Country:
    Mexico
    Oh my god, literally, everyone in this thread knows this, and agrees. And this arguement started when you justified CCAF's desision to keep the Gold cup going only in the US, because of the profit that us made here and how that money helps smaller nations and how , for whatever reason, CCAF needs to keep its profit margins the same cup after cup.
    You even brought up the rugby WC as an analogy saying that, if CCAF hosts a GC outside of the US, then they need to make sure the next cup is even more profitable. This is the flaw in your argument, you dont know for certain how a GC out side of the US will do, so you automatically think it will be such a disaster that the next GC would need to make even more money than ever. You have no basis for this.

    1) Oh, so your issue is the word big lol fine, the US has an advantage cup after cup.
    And ofcourse if Mexico hosts the GC, they would have a big homefield advantage, thats how hosting works.

    2) ugh, no one is confused by that. You should go backband re read the last few pages.

    3) I misread your post, and thought you meant that, the only way to make profit outside of the US was to reduce costs. I see that you meant, for the same profit to be made the cup would gave to be cheaper. Im a man, so i admit that I was wrong.
    But then naturally, you make a wild assumption that, hosting the cup in Mexico wont reduce costs. Or perhaps be even more costly.How do you know this?
    And I never bitched for the Cup to be moved to Mexico, I want the cup to be moved out of the US. Of course Mexico is a candidate. And if you somehow forgot, you are the one that brought up Mexico.
    And exactly what figures have you brought ? Dont tell me you are talking about the numbers you pulled from your ass. Apparently you want real facts and figures whilst failing to provide them yourself? Thats rich.

    Werent you doing this right now, when talking about the "match fixing" and what not? Lol

    4)forbes can infer all they want, it still doesnt prove anything. And again, please look at what I bolded, and read it.
     

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