2014 WC Qualifying - Back on Track!

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Give me 11 Messi's please.
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I like to point out that Maher really is all over the place travelling from one side of the box to the other:

    Maher:

    [​IMG]

    Fer:

    [​IMG]


    Fer really concentrates his traveling on the vertical center of the field from box to box with some points lighting up outside this area. Maher does not really have hot area's of concentration but is just really all over the place from box to box.

    I we compare these two with somebody like Clasie for example:

    Clasie:

    [​IMG]


    Clasie is almost a squash player, who positions himself in center and works from there. Not one dot even hits one of the boxes and there is enough space between the most far positioned dots on both sides and the boxes.

    I would say Fer and Maher are somewhat different, but both travel a lot all over the field (Fer in a more vertical concentrated pattern) and Clasie on the other hand is your controlling player, but who does not only press, intercept, but also has great distribution. I picked up that in the Kiev game he had 92% passing succesrate and in the last game against Heerenveen:

    [​IMG]

    45/47 is over a 95% passing success rate and only 13% is a back pass. All else is to the side or especially to the front.

    Just wanted to raise these points.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    LOL! I think Maradona when he was manager of the Argentina NT wanted 11 Macherano's to play for him. He just chose the wrong 11.
     
  4. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Maher is a joke. Strootman is leagues better than him. As for that matter even Van Ginkel is. Even Van Bommel is better than Maher at CM. Maher is an over-hyped Siem De Jong with slightly more technical skills
     
  5. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Really, you must be German. There's no other way you can say and think the things you do.
     
    vagegast, TFC Ajax and Orange14 repped this.
  6. windycity

    windycity Member

    Oct 19, 2001
    Where do you think
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I suspect he would be a lousy goalkeeper. OTOH, probably wouldn't matter ;)
     
  7. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Cool.

    That is why Eredivisie is No.9 League & Oranje got humiliated in Group Stages because people are in a fool's world where mediocre talents guys are cheered & hailed as amazing guys.
     
  8. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Actually the Eredivisie is ranked 7th in Europe. And please stop saying such retarded things like "Oranje got humiliated because people live in a fools world" the reason Oranje got eliminated because BVM was a fool and refused to call up talented kids to replenish his ranks

    Where did that negative rep button go?
     
  9. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Such as Fer and Strootman you mean? Street smarts, lol. On the streets of Ridderkerk and Zoetermeer perhaps.
     
  10. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Douglas haters rejoice! Not included in the final squad.

    Fer is though so there's still plenty to get depressed about for some of you.
     
  11. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    The selection for the games against Turkey and Hungary:

    Keepers:

    1. Maarten Stekelenburg (AS Roma),
    2. Michel Vorm (Swansea City)
    3. Tim Krul (Newcastle United)

    Defenders:

    1. Ricardo van Rhijn (Ajax)
    2. Daryl Janmaat (Feyenoord)
    3. John Heitinga (Everton)
    4. Ron Vlaar (Aston Villa)
    5. Joris Mathijsen (Feyenoord)
    6. Nick Viergever (AZ)
    7. Bruno Martins Indi (Feyenoord)
    8. Jetro Willems (PSV)

    Midfielders:

    1. Jordy Clasie (Feyenoord)
    2. Kevin Strootman (PSV)
    3. Leroy Fer (FC Twente)
    4. Urby Emanuelson (AC Milan)
    5. Wesley Sneijder (Internazionale)

    Attackers:

    1. Luciano Narsingh (PSV)
    2. Jeremain Lens (PSV)
    3. Klaas Jan Huntelaar (Schalke 04)
    4. Robin van Persie (Manchester United)
    5. Dirk Kuyt (Fenerbahçe)
    6. Bas Dost (VfL Wolfsburg)
    7. Arjen Robben (Bayern München)
    Source
     
  12. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Full squad. Nigel de Jong, Greg van der Wiel, Rafael van der Vaart dropped.

    Doel: Tim Krul (Newcastle United), Maarten Stekelenburg (AS Roma), Michel Vorm (Swansea City).
    Verdediging: John Heitinga (Everton), Daryl Janmaat (Feyenoord), Bruno Martins Indi (Feyenoord), Joris Mathijsen (Feyenoord), Ricardo van Rhijn (Ajax), Nick Viergever (AZ), Ron Vlaar (Aston Villa), Jetro Willems (PSV).
    Middenveld: Jordy Clasie (Feyenoord), Urby Emanuelson (AC Milan), Leroy Fer (FC Twente), Wesley Sneijder (Internazionale), Kevin Strootman (PSV)
    Aanval: Bas Dost (VfL Wolfsburg), Klaas-Jan Huntelaar (Schalke 04), Dirk Kuyt (Fenerbahҫe), Jeremain Lens (PSV), Luciano Narsingh (PSV), Robin van Persie (Manchester United), Arjen Robben (Bayern München).

    I predict 5-5 vs Turkey teeheeeeee
     
  13. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    He's amidst of transfer rumors. Same reason why NDJ, VDW, VDV, Affelay etc. haven't been called up also. LVG said they're probably more focussed about their new club and he doesn't want to give them more stress than should.
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I don't think so. The transfer deadline is tonight, everybody's sorted then.
     
  15. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Players that have not been called up:

    1. Van der Vaart
    2. De Jong
    3. Van der Wiel
    4. Afellay
    5. Douglas
     
  16. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam

    Even though JN doesn't want to admit it, you can clearly see what they all have in common.
     
  17. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Some things though:

    • Heitinga is not playing for his club (though he had some game recently in an unimportant match). Van Gaal warned Afellay he needed to play, but where does this go for John?
    • Van Rhijn was not very good against Belgium. Van der Wiel now also lost the competition from Janmaat? I have looked up Janmaat's pass completion rate in last game against Hercales and it was awful. He had really many wrong passes against a weak opponent. He also is pretty stiff.
    • Van Gaal probably wanted to keep his experienced central defense, so Douglas has lost out against Vlaar. Vlaar is also a very strong and long guy. Plays in a better league has a very good long pass and is not a worse footballer. He is also pretty fast and has already played on a Euro, while Douglas would be a totally new face for a clutch match.
    • Bruno and Jetro will have to fight it out on left back and I am curious to who he will pick.
    • Midfield we see the arrival of the little general: Jordy Clasie. I know van Gaal reads this forum and I am sure my endorsement has helped to pick him over big names as Nigel de Jong and Anita who is also not selected. There are 5 midfielders, 2 being left legged (Strootman and Urby), 2 are both legged (Sneijder and Fer) and 1 is right legged (Clasie). I find Strootman, Fer, Sneijder and Urby more equiped for the 2 forward midfield positions while I only see Clasie being the cut out holding midfielder. Sure Fer and Strootman can play there, but they have more forward tendencies. So ....
    • Attack is most boring. Nothing really new to see here. I think Lens for right wing is pretty stupid and was even a bad influence on the game we played against Belgium (him not tracking Vertonghen leading to a goal), but the other names are not really weird.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Well I do think that this is a bit of a roll of the dice by Van Gaal. I really cannot fathom why Douglas was not called up here. I suspect the N de Jong and Van der Vaart have played their last matches in Oranje.
     
  19. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    Sneijder, Clasie, Fer in midfield... nice combination of technique, speed and grit. Really looking forward to this. I am afraid Strootman will slow down the pace a bit too much, although obviously he's more experienced and tested. Urby is a nice weapon from the bench.

    I didn't expect much difference from the defense and attack. Usual suspects.
     
  20. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Or we could listen to van Gaal himself :) :

    !


    You are right though.
     
  21. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011


    I think VDW needed a ticking off. Not like dropped from a 1 off friendly. It needs to hit him hard.

    True Van Rhijn has not been great but he has not been bad either. He is defensively allright & can attack a bit. Promising atleast & has does enough to deserve a chance. Passing percentage is a ridiculous parameter as if you dont consider the types of passes attempted how safe or risky it gives you a very hazy idea.

    Not saying janmaat is good but LVG wants 2 players for all positions. That is a clear message. Janmaat is just there to put pressure on Van Rhijn & VDW & this call up will be a motivation for him.

    The attack -> There is nothing to do there. Which new Winger or ST can be called?? Dost did not get even a chance. Fair selection I would say. Qualifiers are not an experimentation stage.

    The Mid-field I dont think there is any Out & out right Destroyer. Clasie can only play DM in the Eredivisie. Brilliant player but I dont think he has the physical strength,size & physique & stamine to play 90 minutes in such a tough role against teams which play rough football.

    In say EPL I think Clasie would be paired with a Tiote & be given more freedom to pass.

    Personally Fer can attack too but I see Fer & Clasie both a bit similar. More like 2 Holding Mid-fielders in a 4-4-2. A cross between a DM & a CM.

    I think either Fer and Clasie can play there. Both will likely get a chance,30 minutes odd for each. I cant see Clasie playing 90 minutes in his 1st game.

    Strootman has great vision & link-up ability. Him or Emanuelson will play in the LCM kind of role. Sneijder is guaranteed the other Mid-field role.

    Robben-Hunter-Narsingh will start. In RVP & Dost there are 2 different ST for Subs which is very good. Kuyt & Lens as different Winger/ST adding something.

    I think it is unlikely any of them will get much time.

    Subs I see ->

    RVP/Dost incase we need goals.

    BMI for a more defensive option to Willems to protect the lead.

    Fer for Clasie or say Vlaar for Heitinga is he has bad game.

    With regards to Heitinga's selection. I think its a slow Clean Up Process which is smart.

    Heitinga & Mathijsen are up next. Douglas at present just got eligible and no need to give him a Royal Welcome. Let him work his way up. Next Clean up will possibly be Heitinga or Mathijsen.

    Also attack is way better so atleast you have replacements for Afellay. De Vrij is not better than Heitinga & LVG obviously would wait a bit before selection Douglas. Its not about whether he is good enough or not.
     
  22. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Why should Douglas be given a Royal Welcome as soon as he is eligible???

    He just got eligible & LVG has named him in the preliminary squad which shows he is in the radar. Its a phase out.

    Like it was Hunter at ST,Robben at LW & Narsingh at LW,switch to 4-3-3,new Defenders, No Boula,Bouma,Schaars.

    Now Afellay,VDV,De Jong gone & new guys like Clasie,Fer given a chance.

    Its obvious its a gradual change. Heitinga & Mathijsen are up next. I am sure LVG given his history does not want 10 changes at 1 go & create another problem & wants to give everyone 1 last chance before omitting them.
     
  23. richsavare

    richsavare Member

    Jan 28, 2003
    New Jersey
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    There is no room for error and I just cannot see how Mathijsen continues? Heitinga not getting much run at Everton is not in the right forum after Euro. I guess the safe move is to keep them right now. I have faith in Johnny, but as I just mentioned its risky.

    Van Gaal pissing me off. The youngsters are just not ready and have gotten punished in Europe.

    Douglas not in final squad is just dumb. He does have European experience and should be in team.

    It is what it is now but Oranje MUST get 6 points from these matches.
    We should not fear these teams but our recent forum and shitty state of affairs has myself for one very nervous.
     
  24. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    I think is Heitinga was with Twente he would have bossed Eredivisie too. Its just because EPL is a lot harder & Douglas has 0 experience bar CHL of playing against good opposition day in & out.

    Besides Douglas is a Brazilian who just got eligible and why on earth should he be welcomed as soon as he becomes eligible. Let him work his way up. The fact that LVG kept him on his initial squad was a positive signal despite a lack of clarity if he will be eligible.
     
  25. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Van Rhijn was not good against Belgium. Not sure why this even has to be debated. He needs to step up his game against Turkey to give me secure feeling and I think excluding VdW for reasons of lack of focus concerning his transfer is a huge gamble by LvG. Van der Wiel just came back pretty good in Eredivisie, after a horrible Euro, last game even with a nice assist on Sana. Looked like he had the fresh wind again in his head after a brake, just like Robben, who looked eager to start the new year as well. This gamble by LvG after van Rhijn's bad game against Belgium could cost us. I have pushed for van Rhijn also, but I am going to call good when it is good and bad when it bad. I will do the same with a bad game of Clasie as he had a bad spell first half against Prague at home. 4 dangerous ball losses in one half for a player that needs to be perfect in his passing on that spot.

    What do you think that made me go watch his stats in the first place? From getting a bit annoyed watching the game from Janmaat. He runs a lot forward, but after that finishes with a shot going wide or over the goal every time. His recent goal is only possible in Eredivisie. If defense is pressured we must be able to cope, by footballing our self out of trouble and a Janmaat messing up passes is prblematic when you want to do that. He has still some convincing to do IMO. The stat stand, his strength and attacking intentions are appreciated and noted. He is also stiff, something I don't like. I like smooth players that breath football.

    No, van der Wiel was not called up for the reason of being in a transfer. I have posted the video earlier the second I could get my hand on it. Janmaat was just the next guy in line.

    He did well against Kiev with over a 90% pass completing rate with key passes also. He played both games more or less fully and was IMO very good bar the last 30 minutes in the away game when Koeman started to mess up with his substitutes.

    Tiote is not a great footballer. He could not make it at Twente as in the Netherlands we play football. What Koeman does is paring Clasie with players having a vertical playing style. Like KEA and Leerdam etc. Vormer for example is not that great so far with Clasie in the football department. Does his defensive part but for the creation part of football I am not impressed with the two combined. Clasie is not able to execute his releasing side optimal and they slow him down therefor. So ideally you need real footballers with a vertical game play around Clasie on midfield. KEA was quite technical and also had a vertical game. That's why it worked so well.

    Clasie and Fer are not similar. Clasie is much more a controller that stays behind the ball, where Fer is much more a box to box player with this vertical game play I talked about. Brama at Twente is more the controller so that Fer can express himself going forward and score goals for example. Also remember how (maybe) the best episode of Fer's football life was at the start of the Feyenoord's previous season, together with Clasie in midfield that got him his transfer to Twente. For U21 we see the same.

    For build up a good footballing DM, especially in this era, is vital. Fer's first touch is pretty poor. You need a speed enhancer with excellent passing ability and a good wall pass. Not a guy that starts running having the ball. Last U21 game Cor Pot went as far as playing Bacuna in DM, instead of Fer. Fer can run more up the field and connect with attack and create combinations, if Huntelaar is able to deliver 1 good wall pass this time contrary to his Belgium game.

    No, the situation around Douglas is different then with the other absentees (VDV, de Jong, VdW and Afellay). Douglas is truly left out for not answering in the same degree to the profile LvG demands of the RCB's. The choice went to a not playing Heitinga and the guy called Ron Beton. That leaves us with the question, if Douglas is not able to win the competition from a guy not playing for his club, when ís he able to win the competition at all? Douglas has a problem.
     

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