2012/2014 Mike Havenaar @ Vitesse (NED/EL) Thread [R]

Since when was the US against dual citizenship? They don't care whatsoever.

 

Actually we do. But due to a Supreme Court ruling, Federal ability to revoke citizenship at their whim was constrained. As a result, there are many loopholes.
However, good luck ever getting a security clearance. It's one of the first questions onSF86

 

With security clearances - yes, it matters but not automatic disqualification. Otherwise, for all intents and purposes the DHS takes a wholly ambivalent position, according to my understanding.

Mike's issues are likely 1) whether he qualifies for a Dutch passport as a former Dutch citizen and resident for 2.5 years; and 2) whether his Japanese nationality would be jeopardized in practice by the acquisition of a Dutch passport. Like I said, plenty of Japanese people also have another nationality (including guys who play internationally for other teams like Arata Izumi and Issey Nakajima-Farran...), but a double standard may be in place...

 

It's ambivalent only in the sense that supreme court ruled that feds have to establish the person believes themselves to be a citizen of a foreign country. That burden of proof is rather steep.
However, should you ever present a foreign passport to a US govt official, you are at serious risk of losing your US passport. Particularly if you use a foreign passport going through US customs, as they're aware of these regulations and it's part of their job to catch you.
Another one that'll get you in instant trouble is joining a foreign military.
There is an appeal process for every red flag on the SF86, but I bring it up to show that federal government views dual citizenship as dishonest and morally questionable behavior and the process puts you in the same category as somebody who has declared bankruptcy.

 

Come on, it's totally allowed in the US. The State Dept gives official, on-the-record guidance to dual nationals and for all situations not involving national security, the only distinction is whether you hold US nationality or not. Presenting a foreign passport to US immigration/customs is a different context as you may be considered to be willfully lying about your nationality status and declaring yourself to be a foreign, non-US national.

Sorry for the OT. But as far as Mike is concerned it might have been best not to talk to Toru Nakata (and Nakata could have not written about it on Yahoo Sports)...

 

I didn't say it wasn't allowed. I stated there are laws and procedures to revoke US citizenship of dual nationals, and that is the fact.
The government websites advise US citizens on what actions can result in such measures. I fail to see how that equates to US government being favorable. They most certainly are not.
If they can prove you pay allegiance to a foreign government, they will revoke your citizenship.

From US govt website:

Note that their accepted examples of dual citizenship are all "accidental” in nature. Examples where they can prove your intent all result in losing American citizenship.
Just as I've stated.

 

OK. So in theory the US government has legal authority to strip citizenship. But "with the intention to give up U.S. nationality" is so ambiguous and ostensibly applies only in cases where the person no longer wants to be a US citizen anyway...this will hardly discourage anyone. People losing US citizenship almost invariably renounce it proactively, usually to avoid US income taxes or run for office in another country.

Japan has a more cut-and-dry policy, at least on paper. I doubt we'll hear about Mike's Dutch passport again..

 

emm.... as someone who has three nationalities (and three passports, one of which is US), and who has also lived in Japan for seven years (although now I live in Europe), I feel I can comment.

Mike's problem is really with Japan, which as you noted Naopon, does not allow dual citizenship for adults (although there may be some very rare exceptions I am not aware of). Yes, some people manage to have both Japanese and non-Japanese citizenship (and passports), but they do this basically by keeping the fact concealed from the Japanese authorities. This is actually getting increasingly hard to do, as many more of our activities are recorded by airlines, tax authorities, etc which these days share information. Certainly for a public figure like Mike, it would be almost impossible.

The policy of the US is, of course, not relevant to Mike's situation (so why so much discussion of it.. ? ), but for the record, the US has no problem with dual nationality... unless possibly if you've done something very naughty , in which case they might take your US one away. Their policy, as it was spelled out to me when I first got US citizenship, and as I have always experienced it in practice, is that they simply do not recognize your 'other' nationality --- your 'other' passport has as much interest and validity to them as a Blockbuster video card. In particular, when you enter the US, as a US citizen you must use your US passport, because in their view using your other one would be like entering with an invalid document. And of course, US citizens are required to report, and are subject to US taxation on, their worldwide income regardless of where they live and regardless of whatever other nationality they may have. Beyond that, they really don't care... I have shown my other passport(s) to the US immigration people several times, both intentionally and unintentionally, and they have no reaction to it whatsoever. Of course if you want to get things like special security clearances for particular government jobs, etc, dual citizenship may be an issue, but even then I have a friends who works in a fairly high level job in the US CDC (Center for Disease Control), who has both US & UK citizenship, and has done for some years.

 

Well Robert Cullen back in the VVV days when he was rumoured with the Northern Ireland NT, must have had 2 passports cause his own quotes sounded convincing enough like he could just rock up to their NT training at any moment.

 

I won't push this anymore off topic but as has been alluded to, the following Supreme Court ruling effectively legalized dual American nationality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroyim_v._Rusk

The ruling basically ruled irrelevant all treaties and statutes permitting forcible de-nationalization. Dual nationals are even allowed to vote in foreign elections. I think the only way you can lose your citizenship is if you actively surrender it through an American diplomatic agency, pretty much like any country. Even then it's a very painstaking, difficult process as the government does not want to lose taxpayers.

Also Japan really doesn't seem to care even if you have foreign nationality. When I applied for a new Japanese passport last year, I was asked on the application form if I had foreign citizenship. My dad made me declare my American citizenship because he didn't want me to lie on a government application and I had no problem with renewal, even though I older than 21 (age you're supposed to choose by).

Mike's agent shouldn't have publicly raised the issue. If he kept it under wraps, I suspect he could get away with it.

 

As the examples from USGov website noted, there are many ways to lose US citizenship. Presenting another country's passport at Customs. Serving in foreign military. Anything that constitutes proof that you have intent can (and will if they find out) result in loss of US passport.
As I've stated about 20 times now... the issue is proving intent. It's rather difficult to prove what somebody "intends", thus there are plenty of loopholes. But USGov still frowns heavily on dual citizenship, and the USGov websites make that abundantly clear as well... stating the reasons why they do not like the idea of dual citizenship.
The Israel passport highlights exactly what makes the issue complicated. Israel issues passports to anyone with Jewish bloodlines. Even if you send them a letter renouncing that citizenship, they will simply ignore it and treat you as a citizen. This is a very convenient loophole in the sense that many countries require you to renounce citizenship of origin country in order to get their passport (Japan being one of these, thus the issue w/Havenaar's parents having renounced Dutch citizenship as a necessity of being naturalized in Japan) ... yet Israel Government knows this and simply ignores such notification. Allowing people to still have dual citizenship even with a country like Japan (and previously US).

As for Netherlands, it depends entirely on their laws and what Mike wants to do with his Japanese citizenship. I am sure it would be trivial for him to repatriate (IIRC he was born a Dutch citizen) if he does not mind casting off his Japanese citizenship. On the other, many EU countries openly endorse dual citizenship and may not require him to notify Japan, in which case he has a backdoor into dual citizenship. There may also be rules making it easy if "Grandparents" (England-Ireland-Scotland et. al.) or other relatives (how many South American and African players gain entry to Spain, France, Italy) had Dutch citizenship. It seems safe to assume his Grandparents held Dutch citizenship.
So I don't see the issue with his agent raising it. It would not surprise me one bit if the only country that cares turns out to be Japan; as they too do not much like the idea of dual citizenship.

 

Looking into it, it appears -- at least on the surface -- that Mike would be eligible to regain Dutch citizenship "under option". Which is a special procedure for ex-Dutch who lost their citizenship under certain circumstances. The one which would appear to apply for Mike:

The option procedure does not appear to require renouncing previous citizenship. Though it does say this regarding Japan:

But as they note, that's Japan's problem. So it would not shock me in any way if Mike has a passport within a few months (the option procedure is expedited), and it's just never disclosed to Japanese government.

 

how likely is he to make the WC2014 squad?

 

After solving the riemann hypothesis you can clearly see that his chances are 10%

 

your hypothesis is incorrect since the formula you used is wrong. this is the correct formula:

clearly the percentage is x

This has been proven because it has been scientifically confirmed

 

Fools.
I thought his place were safe after a good season with Vitesse. But don't know after all this bullshite started?

 

Than WC2014.

90% chances
I'm a scientist.

 

But you did not say "Scientists have discovered that" , therefore your claim must be invalid

 

I'm the scientistS myself than whatever I say is infallibly correct.

 

Citizenship talk

 

Okey. Maybe that is the case.

Wich FW will go? Okazaki, Osako, Kakitani? That is three.
2002 Japan had 4 FWs
2006 : 5
2010: 6