€-Moneyball; High and Low Finance Football

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Orange14, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. You know where they're heading coming sunday?;)
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't see the point of this. In the year Monaco won the league title they had an average attendance of below 10000. Monaco their club ranking is 27 but higher than any Dutch or Belgian club (but will undoubtedly decrease now they are a relegation candidate). Three first division titles after Bosman in a top league while boasting attendances below 10000 is surely an anomaly.

    Besides, both the French state as well as Ligue 1 have a deal with Monaco that cancels some of the advantages (but not all).

    "Firstly, it is important to remember the unique position that Monaco finds itself in as a principality, and in particular its tax haven status. The city’s residents pay no income tax, thus allowing Monaco an advantage over the rest of Ligue 1 and the wider European game. With Rybolovlev’s millions behind them, not only were they able to secure the superstar players that they wanted at the prices being quoted by selling clubs, but they were also able to tempt players with astronomical salaries. At a time when President François Hollande was overseeing an income tax rise up to a top band of 75% in France, Monaco was able to offer a unique pay package to prospective transfer targets. This benefits only overseas residents, so French residents working in Monaco are still bound by the tax laws of their native France [a result of the 1961 blockade, PvH]. The knock-on effect can be seen in Monaco’s transfer policy where big salaries were handed out to overseas stars such as Falcao and Rodríguez, yet few big French nationals were added to the roster save for Abidal.

    This created a feeling of resentment among the rest of the Ligue 1 clubs and soon enough a legal challenge was mounted against Monaco before the Ligue de Football Professionnel (LFP). The appellants felt aggrieved how Monaco had barged their way up to the top flight using their unique location (and tax breaks) to skew competition and create an unfair playing field. PSG were a predictably vocal opponent as they could not accept another big fish in their pond (as an aside, the hypocrisy of one subsidiary company crying foul over the tax haven status of another, when their own parent company is situated in a country that charges 0% corporation tax for companies owned and based in Qatar itself, I will leave to the economists and philosophers to discuss).

    In the end though, as so often seems to be the case, money talked. Monaco came to an agreement with the LFP in January 2014 whereby they would make a one-off voluntary payment of €50m that would allow Monaco to retain their eligibility to play in Ligue 1 whilst still benefiting from the aforementioned tax breaks that reward overseas footballers coming to their club."



    I'd be in favor of this and also a stronger Twente, Heerenveen etc. again but at the same time Portugal is even more top heavy (in revenues, attendances etc.) and for them it is no problem it seems. How so?

    Either way, many clubs are still not happy with the 'veranderagenda' and they will discuss and meet again.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It's surprising how some of the other Dutch clubs outside the 'big Three' have fallen. Twente was relegated and less than a decade ago they were champions and had a decent spell in Europe. AZ used to perform decently in the EL. Utrecht were much better than now. Dutch clubs cannot keep decent players on their roster. Whether it is poaching by Ajax or PSV of talent from other league teams or selling abroad, no team has real stability on their roster. This season is the first in a while that I can remember where Ajax did not lose any starting player.

    As I have noted before, this won't ever improve until there is more revenue flowing into the league and I don't see that happening.
     
  4. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Is there a better example than Monaco when talking about the burden of taxes? Being a sugar daddy club (and a playground for agents) seems to have had more of an impact. If taxes played such a big role you'd expect a lot more silverware in the 80 years before the 2014 payment and the wind being knocked out of them when they had to pay more than they probably did in those same 80 years.

    Portugal's inequitable distribution of TV money is an outlier (look at the rest of the league; we have amateur teams drawing bigger crowds and generating more revenue; or look at UEFA's benchmark), in S.America Portugal have a great catchment area, good talent detection/development/coaching, corruption, shady agents, TPO, how do they finance their debt, their infrastructure, ... It doesn't look sustainable, at all, but so far the bubble hasn't burst. I'm guessing you're much better informed about Portugal than I am (I haven't had a close look, just a glance at the drama coming from there, so TBH nothing more than a blind stab from my part). BTW how bad is the tax bite in Portugal?
     
  5. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Didn't Twente get in bed with Doyen and then slapped with a TPO fine? Sounded like the beginning of the "end" for them.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, and the tax agency also came along... One can indeed wonder whether this happens (will happen) elsewhere in Europe.
     
  7. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    IIRC Twente's dirty laundry was already aired and the Dutch authorities were late in their response. To claim they're particularly vigilant, I have my doubts. For example, Dutch companies were skirting European tax law right under their noses.

    A good read: http://www.spiegel.de/international...ws-the-money-to-agent-wealth-a-1125760-3.html

    [​IMG]

     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This might well be true but at least they acted (and it hurt Twente), which bears relevance to the discussed subject here, the subject of available money (liquid money) and how/when it can be spend.

    There are numerous countries where the authorities don't really act, and I'm not meaning Belgium here. Various teams have also gone bankrupt, and it was widely acknowledged internationally that this just doesn't happen elsewhere. The German and French prosecutors stated bankruptcy of football clubs wouldn't happen so easily in his own country, let alone Portugal (where, as you hint at in your above post, many clubs are perennially insolvent). This has sent a strong signal to all Dutch clubs.

    Countries without any crime, favoritism and nepotism do not exist, the number will never be zero. Countries like ours (Netherlands + Flanders/Belgium) don't live in relative isolation like for example Iceland does. Countries without shades of grey in business life are totalitarian states, and I'm all too happy to bash the thugs of Shell. We should be wary about 'juking of stats' too, which the television series 'The Wire' has taught us so well (case load, crime rate, number of wiretaps etc.).

    Instead, just look at the foremost and most cited rankings of their type.


    Sports governance observer (with KU Leuven and Brussels University as major partner)

    Netherlands ranks #3 behind Norway and narrowly behind Denmark (#2 for accountability and control). Same for football. This is the best research of its type.

    WADA blacklist and watchlist (naming and shaming)

    As one of the very few countries in the world, Netherlands has never been on this. This is clearly not true for e.g. Spain and Portugal, and repeatedly so. Netherlands allows testing and research by competing countries.

    Business corruption (Transparancy International)

    Number one in the world, with Japan.

    Press Freedom (Freedom House and Reporters without borders)

    Number two behind Norway & number three behind Norway and Sweden. Practically no press censorship, soft libel laws.

    Rule of Law index

    Number five behind the Scandinavian countries.

    Reliability of police services

    Number two country in the EU, behind Luxembourg (typically, various semi-totalitarian states rank higher here).

    Good Country Index (net positive "contribution to the planet, and to the human race, through their policies and behaviors")

    Number one in the world (#3 and #4 in other years)

    Judicial Independence (WEF, made by legal experts)

    Number three in the world

    ------------------------

    Which is not the same as saying it is all well and perfect (I'm not a fan of the current prime minister, sports minister...). And indeed, it remains to be seen whether e.g. the Portuguese sports model is particularly sustainable, without hidden backchanneling of bank and state funds (which ultimately provides panem et circenses but screws the ordinary citizen).
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Best television show ever!!!! Beware of Omar!!!
     
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  10. aveslacker

    aveslacker Member+

    Ajax
    United States
    Apr 2, 2006
    Near Kamar-Taj
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You come at the king, you best not miss.
     
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  11. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    The Eredivisie is the most unbalanced league. Only in the CL is the imbalance between the haves and have-nots more apparent.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. From the "English Abroad" thread.
    The influence of money on youngsters.
    Thought this was an interesting read:

    Patrick Vieira: English youths should play abroad
    Matt Dickinson, Chief Sports Writer


    December 7 2018, 12:01am, The Times

    [​IMG]
    Sancho, right, at Borussia Dortmund, could inspire others to leave English academiesREUTERS/RALPH ORLOWSKI
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    Patrick Vieira has urged young English players to head abroad rather than risk stagnation while struggling to make it into Premier League starting XIs. As the manager of Nice, Vieira said that he could offer the best English teenagers the chance to play “man football” in Ligue 1 but fears that some are putting money before career development.

    Vieira has no doubts about the talent coming through the best English academies. He saw it as manager of the elite development squad at Manchester City from 2013 to 2015 and Nice’s scouts have been closely following a number of English teenagers. They recently tried to sign one only to find he was on a salary of more than £600,000 aged 17.

    [​IMG]
    Vieira said he could offer teenagers the chance to play in France’s Ligue 1VALERY HACHE/GETTY IMAGES
    “The talent is there,” Vieira told The Times. “Look at the Tournoi [won by England this year]. We sent scouts there and the English were among the most impressive. All your junior teams do so well. When I was at City I saw it, at our own club or playing Chelsea with [Ruben] Loftus-Cheek, [Dominic] Solanke. They were ready to play man football then.

    “The problem of staying in England is that the under-23 league isn’t good enough for their level. Those kids need to play in one of the top five leagues in Europe. When you play two, three years in the under-23s, you lose motivation. You don’t improve as you should. Then it’s too late. There are too many young players losing themselves because of the lack of challenge.

    “If any good young player wants to come to France, I advise them to do it. We can give them first-team football, competitive games, chasing Europe. We give a chance to young players.”

    Julien Fournier, the general manager of Nice, revealed that he had been to England recently trying to sign a young English prospect. “One month ago I spent a week in England trying to bring a player at 17 earning €60,000 [about £53,000] gross per month,” Fournier said. “This boy asked for €1 million for the parents, €2 million for the agents.”

    Vieira said that he hoped that the example of Jadon Sancho, who left City for Borussia Dortmund and has broken into the England squad, would inspire others to move abroad.

    “It’s about having a career plan,” Vieira said. “When you look at some of the young players going to the Bundesliga like Sancho, it’s fantastic for them. We are set up to develop young talent. We can offer that here.”
     
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  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^Nice article. Dortmund are a good club for young players. I doubt US NT player Pulisic would be as good as he is if he did not move over to Germany early on.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Comments at kickoff of the MLS final:



    ....
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    AC Milan have been fined €12 million by UEFA and threatened with a one-season ban from European competition for breaking financial fair play (FFP) rules.

    UEFA said the ban will be activated if Milan fail to break even on football-related business by June 2021. If Milan fail to comply, they will be banned for the next UEFA competition they qualify for in either of the 2022-23 or 2023-24 seasons.
     
  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  17. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    The Eredivisie's distribution of TV money keeps going south. Holland have dropped below Spain in FY2017 (compared to FY2016). Now only Greece, Cyprus and Portugal have less equitable deals (Portugal being a special case as it's the only major league where clubs sell their rights individually).

    In the last 10 years inequality has been on the rise in Holland. The ratio deteriorated from 220% in 2008 to 360% in 2017. In contrast, Belgium's ratio improved, from 330% to 200%. Did more balanced sharing of TV money harm Belgian clubs in Europe? Did an increasingly inequitable distribution make Dutch clubs more competitive? Nope, quite the opposite. Holland used to be well ahead of Belgium in the rankings and now are well behind. During the latest Eredivisie reform talks the greedy clubs still used this "argument" though.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. This week's Voetbal International has two articles addressing the Eredivisie future and recent report of the UEFA and Gerbrands vision about it.

    And it has nice articles concerning the Feyenoord win over Ajax too;)
     
  19. Hard Brexit could mean the BBC broadcasts including Match of the Day will end.
    https://www.ad.nl/tv-en-radio/bbc-in-nederland-mogelijk-op-zwart-bij-harde-brexit~a55ff1f9/
    Nieuwe vergunning
    Het Commissariaat bevestigt dat de BBC na de brexit een nieuwe vergunning moet aanvragen. Of daarover nu al gesprekken lopen, wil een woordvoerder niet zeggen. ,,Over dat soort gevoelige informatie laten we ons nooit uit.’’

    De BBC distribueert zijn publieke zenders naar Europa via de commerciële tak van de omroep. Om te garanderen dat de BBC ook na de brexit in de EU mag blijven uitzenden, heeft de omroep plannen voor het openen van een kantoor in Brussel of Amsterdam. Een besluit daarover wordt echter pas ná de brexit genomen. Of en hoe de omroep in de tussentijd in Nederland te zien blijft, is hoogst onzeker. Het Commissariaat voor de Media ‘weet het niet’ en ook bij Ziggo moeten ze het antwoord schuldig blijven.
     
  20. Funny story:
    https://www.ad.nl/economie/chaos-co...ame-door-nederlands-bedrijf-opnieuw~a6e8348c/
    Chaos compleet: Spaanse voetbalclub ontkent overname door Nederlands bedrijf opnieuw

    Het is hoogst onzeker of het Limburgse bedrijf Libereum eigenaar wordt van de Spaanse voetbalclub Elche CF. José Sepulcre, belangrijk aandeelhouder van de club, zegt dat het cryptobedrijf zijn verplichtingen niet is nagekomen. Een eerdere overeenkomst zou daardoor 'waardeloos’ zijn.

    Sander van Mersbergen 08-02-19, 16:03 Laatste update: 16:59
    [​IMG]
     

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