¡Hala Juve! - The 2018-2019 Other Players (and Teams) thread

Ozora · Dec 12, 2019

Bada Bing said: ↑

From pure performance perspective Messi is already one of the best nt-players ever, World Cup Golden Ball and Copa America MVP. Only Pele, Ronaldo, Nasazzi and Zidane can say the same, although Messi's performances in those tournaments were better than any of the others. Also if Messi wins 2016 Copa, he wins the MVP of that tournament too equaling Nasazzi. KO goals in one tournament becomes moot at that point. I think this just highlights the wrong general mentality, when best nt-players are compared.
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zidane's performances are so overrated. they gave him the world cup golden ball before the final's half time. All of his 2006 world cup is just about his games against the most overrated Brazil team ever. A game he had some fancy footworks from halfway line,only one chance created,much thank to Carlos who gifted them a golden goal.

celito · Dec 12, 2019

Ozora said: ↑

goals dont mean much for me. iniesta just walked through all opponents defense and was the best player of tournament by distance.
i believe messi doesnt really need to score in the next tournaments to become the best if his plays are brillant and argentina manages to win (also no goal will cause some misunderstood facts like messi in 2010 world cup and 2011 copa)
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Iniesta was never known for scoring goals. Messi is.

celito · Dec 12, 2019

BocaFan said: ↑

Well, lets not go overboard. 6 WC goals in roughly 20 WC matches wouldn't make him the greatest NT player ever, even with one WC trophy.

Furthermore you can't even assume Argentina wins those games if Higuain scores. That chance against Germany came early in the match IIRC, so there was lots of time for Germany to reply.
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Very true. Except for the 2015 CA Final where Higuain's chance was right at the end. That miss looked bad but he barely got to the ball and couldn't wrap his foot around it. The other two were worse IMO.

One thing Messi does have "going for him" is that he really didn't have a lot of clear scoring chances in many of those KO games. So he didn't choke away chances left and right. He did miss that great chance vs Germany in the Final plus there was a play in first half on a break away play with 3v3 I feel he should have done better with his pass that could have lead to a goal. He also missed a 1v1 vs Courtouis at the end of the game vs Belgium but luckily for him Argentina were winning. Really uncharacteristic miss from him on that one.

Most teams at the WC have been able to cut off a lot of Messi's bread and butter plays that leads to goals. He never had that many chances from top of the box for his curling shot and neither that cut back pass from the wing as he finds space inside the box with a run. The better organized teams are very much aware of those plays and concentrate on denying him those chances.

afar · Dec 13, 2019

At times it was a one-man army.

Danko · Dec 13, 2019

celito said: ↑

Very true. Except for the 2015 CA Final where Higuain's chance was right at the end. That miss looked bad but he barely got to the ball and couldn't wrap his foot around it. The other two were worse IMO.

One thing Messi does have "going for him" is that he really didn't have a lot of clear scoring chances in many of those KO games. So he didn't choke away chances left and right. He did miss that great chance vs Germany in the Final plus there was a play in first half on a break away play with 3v3 I feel he should have done better with his pass that could have lead to a goal. He also missed a 1v1 vs Courtouis at the end of the game vs Belgium but luckily for him Argentina were winning. Really uncharacteristic miss from him on that one.

Most teams at the WC have been able to cut off a lot of Messi's bread and butter plays that leads to goals. He never had that many chances from top of the box for his curling shot and neither that cut back pass from the wing as he finds space inside the box with a run. The better organized teams are very much aware of those plays and concentrate on denying him those chances.
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It's not so much teams denying him chances because elite club opponents do that too and probably better to boot. Problem is that his teammates for Argentina aren't capable of setting him up the way he is in Barcelona. Football is not a solo sport. Even the greatest player ever will struggle to produce if placed on a team where he doesn't get the ball in the right places. Beating 4-5 players to score a goal is very rare even for someone like Messi.

Honestly nowadays international football is generally so overrated in my opinion. Most players play well over 80% of their matches for their clubs and many national teams get essentially zero chemistry prior to major tournaments, especially CONMEBOL teams. 2018 WC had only a handful of good matches and last year's Copa was awful borderline unwatchable. Just a ton of misplaced passes, defensive mistakes etc. which makes for bad football. Why would a WC title be the deciding factor in GOAT discussions if CL games produce a much higher level of football than WC games. It makes no sense to me in this modern era.

On a side note the reason why I think UEFA has slowly overtaken CONMEBOL... It isn't a matter of talent but UEFA teams simply play a lot more matches. WC qualifiers, Euro qualifiers, now UEFA Nations League, plus other Friendlies. It gives them a chance to build more cohesive units and it shows on the pitch. A lot of South American teams have a ton of talent and play with passion but they are just disorganized and lack chemistry.

condor11 · Dec 14, 2019

unclesox said: ↑

Quite amazing for Atalanta to advance considering they failed to pick up a single point in the first 3 matchdays.
I think Newcastle did similar in the mid-2000s. Zero points going into Matchday 4 and advanced out of the group.
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is this the first time no teams from outside the top 4 leagues and France have made it out of group stage?

condor11 · Dec 14, 2019

Danko said: ↑

Sample size is why the top 10 goalscorers in WC history has a ton of guys who are nothing special but top 10 goalscorers in La Liga history is pretty much all legends.
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Would be interested on who you consider to be nothing special from the top world cup goal scoring list...every player who has scored 8 or more seems pretty good.

condor11 · Dec 14, 2019

Danko said: ↑

It's not so much teams denying him chances because elite club opponents do that too and probably better to boot. Problem is that his teammates for Argentina aren't capable of setting him up the way he is in Barcelona. Football is not a solo sport. Even the greatest player ever will struggle to produce if placed on a team where he doesn't get the ball in the right places. Beating 4-5 players to score a goal is very rare even for someone like Messi.

Honestly nowadays international football is generally so overrated in my opinion. Most players play well over 80% of their matches for their clubs and many national teams get essentially zero chemistry prior to major tournaments, especially CONMEBOL teams. 2018 WC had only a handful of good matches and last year's Copa was awful borderline unwatchable. Just a ton of misplaced passes, defensive mistakes etc. which makes for bad football. Why would a WC title be the deciding factor in GOAT discussions if CL games produce a much higher level of football than WC games. It makes no sense to me in this modern era.

On a side note the reason why I think UEFA has slowly overtaken CONMEBOL... It isn't a matter of talent but UEFA teams simply play a lot more matches. WC qualifiers, Euro qualifiers, now UEFA Nations League, plus other Friendlies. It gives them a chance to build more cohesive units and it shows on the pitch. A lot of South American teams have a ton of talent and play with passion but they are just disorganized and lack chemistry.
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if anything Conmebol teams get way more official games to prepare for a wc than most confederations

18 qualifying games

furthermore if we count the qualifiers for 2014. Conmebol teams have had

18 world cup 2014 qualifying games
2014 world cup if you qualified
2015 Copa America
2016 Copa America
18 World cup 2018 qualifying games
2018 world cup if you qualified
2019 Copa America
2020 Copa America
and we will get another 18 qualifiers for 2022.

that is a ton of official games in the last 3 world cup cycles.

unclesox · Dec 14, 2019

condor11 said: ↑

is this the first time no teams from outside the top 4 leagues and France have made it out of group stage?
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I read somewhere that, yes, this is the first time.

celito · Dec 14, 2019

Xavis team lost to Monterrey 3 x 2 in the CWC. Flamengo and Liverpool play their SFs midweek .

unclesox · Dec 15, 2019

Helmond Cup update:

Bologna 2-1 Atalanta

Next:
Sunday 22 December
Serie A, 17a Giornata
Lecce v Bologna

celito · Dec 15, 2019

Nothing like a pick me up for Pep than play Arsenal.

Danko · Dec 15, 2019

Coutinho with 3 goals and 2 assists for Bayern yesterday... Lewandowski in an absolute tear though. 29 goals in 22 matches and could break the 60-goal plateau.

celito · Dec 15, 2019

Just tuning in. Fantastic.

ShortyMac · Dec 15, 2019

celito said: ↑

Just tuning in. Fantastic.
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Jinx. Benzema levels at the death. Finishes 1-1.

celito · Dec 15, 2019

My touch is back.

celito · Dec 15, 2019

ShortyMac said: ↑

Jinx. Benzema levels at the death. Finishes 1-1.
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I still see it as 2 points dropped.

Ozora · Dec 16, 2019

honestly,is maradona considered as club's legend? beside from his game vs madrid and some brillant plays,he wasnt really good.

Two Argentines
Two geniuses
Football from another galaxy. pic.twitter.com/qSp4z8uXA6
— FC Barcelona (@FCBarcelona) December 16, 2019

celito · Dec 17, 2019

Flamengo come from behind to beat Al-Hilal 3 x 1 to teach the CWC final. Al-Hilal our up a good display in first half but faded in the second as Flamengo made some adjustments and took advantage. Al-Hilal had a pretty international team including former Juve player Giovinco.

if Liverpool can win tomorrow they will get the revenge most of their fans probably don’t care about .

celito · Dec 17, 2019

So Ozil made some comments about Muslims being mistreated in China on Friday and it created havoc in China like the NBA incident. The Arsenal x Man City game was pulled off from TV, Arsenal jerseys burned, and some fans calling for Arsenal to fire Ozil (which would actually be a favor at this point).

Let's just say, China won't be a destination for Ozil any time soon ... neither professionally nor on leisure.

BocaFan · Dec 20, 2019

With el clásico happening in midweek the first full week of the reformatted Copa del Rey seems to have been forgotten. Anyway, La Liga sides went 15-and-1.
Only Alaves lost.

Pique’s FC Andorra lost in a shootout to Leganes.

BocaFan · Dec 20, 2019

Copa del Rey draw (Round of 60):

Logroñés-Cádiz
Cartagena-Girona
UCAM Murcia-Mirandés
Ebro-Ponferradina
Rayo Majadahonda-Tenerife
Recreativo de Huelva-Fuenlabrada
Nàstic-Zaragoza
Yeclano Deportivo-Elche
Unionistas-Deportivo
Cultural Leonesa-SD Huesca
Pontevedra/Ibiza-Albacete
Barakaldo-Rayo Vallecano
Badajoz-Las Palmas
Haro Deportivo-Osasuna
Orihuela-Villarreal
Badalona-Getafe
San Sebastián de los Reyes-Espanyol
Mérida/La Nucía-Celta
Marbella-Valladolid
Tamaraceite-Granada
Zamora-Mallorca
Ceuta-Real Sociedad
Portugalete-Betis
Cacereño-Eibar
Escobedo-Sevilla
Real Murcia-Leganés
Real Jaén-Levante
Sestao River-Athletic

4th-division Sestao River is based just 6 miles from the San Mames.

Gilmango · Dec 20, 2019

Simply amazing 10 minute video of highlights from the past 10 years of football, really well edited. Sadly I think the Barca goals for may be slightly outnumbered by the Barca goals against, plenty of both though it is not a Barca video at all, but rather men's European Club and a smidge of National Team highlights from the past decade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=CaGndV9IO8Q&feature=emb_title

celito · Dec 20, 2019

Gilmango said: ↑

Simply amazing 10 minute video of highlights from the past 10 years of football, really well edited. Sadly I think the Barca goals for may be slightly outnumbered by the Barca goals against, plenty of both though it is not a Barca video at all, but rather men's European Club and a smidge of National Team highlights from the past decade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=CaGndV9IO8Q&feature=emb_title
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What in the Hell is Martials first goal for ManU doing in there ?

BocaFan · Dec 20, 2019

celito said: ↑

What in the Hell is Martials first goal for ManU doing in there ?
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I think the video also included all 3 Man Utd goals in that dead-rubber Manchester derby from a couple of seasons ago.