Garrincha had the mentality of a 7 year old.. While pele zito and the rest were discussing game plans and tactics,garrincha was allowed to go and 'play' and read his favourite comic books !.. There was no point in the coaching staff explaining tactics to garrincha because he didnt understand.. He was a bit like a skilful footballing version of forrest Gump
Rule of thumb, everyone should sit back and watch while the KING teaching them how to do overhead kick LOL
what is your assesment of pele's game here? It always irked me how clumsily he gave away the ball on like a 5 foot pass, but would always redeem himself and score a goal or do some amazing trick, only to give the ball away clumsily again.
Wait until Messi played 20years for Barca, and came to MLS to play , and you come back here comment LOL Did you ever know Pele's first professional game with Santos at 15yrs old?
he does the same thing with santos and the national team. he plays super lax which adds to his panache at time but you often see a defender just come take it from behind when hes just standing there
"often"? how many games you watched Pele or only few clips in youtube? Nesta robbed the ball at Messi feet in the oenalty box was so much more famous ! If you nitpicked a few games LOL
Don't know whether the game is representative. Maybe it is better to take some of him when he was age-wise in his prime. http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/963-Football-myths/3322-the-nasl-was-rubbish Like this, in actual competitive games, or games with prestige. In some way I agree with your observations, but I tend to be more forgiving because there aren't so many 'best passer ever' claims floating around on the interwebs as with a few other legendary players (I guess you know which ones). Like you say, sometimes/regularly Pelé came with something really magical and ingenious. He was also like that with his passing, I agree. One might say that he played like a real forward: always trying to do something great but if one loses the ball, it isn't a disaster either. Pelé wasn't a 'playmaker' or ball-retainer, he was a man of the final pass. This quality was utilized best as a forward, not as a midfield player (in a thread of the past, I thought 'neymar vs pelé', this was once discussed). You can maybe take a look here. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/for-people-who-have-have-watched-pele-and-neymar.1987992/ Maybe we should judge him by his strengths and key-assets too. Lucas Gomes confirmed once that Pelé has 30 assists for the national team, next to his 77 goals (I made once a try too, and came to a similar estimate). I can see the thought that we don't value Franco Baresi by his goals either, if you know what I mean. But in short; I'm more forgiving (also 'emotionally' when watching games) because there are not an extreme amount of outrageous claims about his on-the-ball consistency floating around. TBH, he did pull off truly great things once in a while.
In NASL even at older age, Pele never was any worse (if not even betetr) then Best and Cruijff there Last bold ~1000goals/~1000games = once in a while? 44goals/37 big games = once in a while? Maybe relative to Messi + Maradona + Batistuta in Argentina combined?
The opinions differ about this. Example: "“He was like a conductor, and we were his orchestra,” says Marcantonio. “He wasn’t like Pelé coming over—not being the player people remember. Cruyff could still do it all." http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/493/foreign-diplomat [I know that the USA soccer press voted Cruijff as best player of 1979 and 1980] But that doesn't matter; I just say that I don't know how representative that 1975 NASL game is. OK, sorry for my wordings. I mean, relative to all his attempts, he pulled off magical things once in a while.
OK .. I agree somewhat but Like I responded to Jarweido, Pele started his career at very young, and when he came to NASL (more like a "marketing model" for USA soccer mission (as he was retired ...) then anything else, so at time of 35 in NASL, he was like a Car engine with 20years on the road already ... But like you spot on, his "genius" in some moment (even older) was still there ... Look back at NASL stats of the 3 greats Pele (35-37 yrs old) -----31goals+25ass= 87points (NY Cosmos) Cruijff (32-34yrs old) -- 25goals+37ass = 87points (Aztec)z G. Best(31-33yrs old)--- 27goals+25ass = 79points (his 3 seasons atLos) However in Play OFF games (more important), Pele shone more then Cruijff and Best Pele agreed with such a contract by this comment "you stayed in Brazil you might win a league, but if you come to America, you win the whole country"
Sorry, It's not the first time you are making a mess of the statistics. Points per game Cruijff 1.62 (86/53) Pelé 1.55 (87/56) Best [1976-78] 1.43 (79/55) Best 1.17 (162/139) Goals per game Pelé 0.55 (31/56) Best [1976-78] 0.49 (27/55) Cruijff 0.47 (25/53) Best 0.39 (54/139) Assists per game Cruijff 0.70 (37/53) Best [1976-78] 0.45 (25/55) Pelé 0.45 (25/56) Best 0.39 (54/139) Note: Cruijff has actually the 2nd highest 'assists per game' in NASL history among the top-50 all-time assisters. http://www.nasljerseys.com/Stats/Scoring.htm#Assists Like I said, I also know that the USA sports/soccer press voted Cruijff as best player in both 1979 and 1980. Don't know for Pelé and Best (for all years). Well, Pelé had to shine more in the play-offs because he simply played for the better team. True, Pelé was their foremost attraction, the star player who made the show, but he had a good support cast. As you know, Cruijff played a few test games for Cosmos, where he impressed. http://www.sportsillustrated.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094167/3/index.htm So why didn't he end up at the Cosmos? The book 'Once in a Lifetime' (Gavin Newsham) gives the answer: " But this was no time for resting on laurels and, like an art dealer trying to complete his collection, Steve Ross signed off on a plan to try and land the last remaining legend in the modern game - Johan Cruyff. 'I said to Steve Ross that he had to hire Johan [because] he's the best player you can ever see,' recalls Franz Beckenbauer. [...] Their pre-eminence asserted, the Cosmos decided to strengthen its squad further. In late August, Johan Cruyff arrived from Spain to take part in a three-match exhibition series at Giants Stadium. While the object of the All-Star series was to raise money for UNICEF and the Spanish Red Cross, the games were seen as an audition of Cruyff at what would be his new home. After the series ended, it was widely assumed that the thirty-one-year-old would sign full time for the Cosmos, but the deal never happened. Wary of criticism that the Cosmos was not only spending its way to success but in danger of making the NASL a pointless procession, the club backtracked on the move to sign Cruyff and the Dutchman eventually opted to join his former coach, Rinus Michels, at the Los Angeles Aztecs. Rafael de la Sierra [vice-president & the man who contracted players, PvH], however, remembers it differently. 'We brought him [Cruyff] to New York and then we gave him to Los Angeles to create more competition in the league,' he admits. " The only option was to get rid of an already contracted foreign star, but because those had performed well and had great commercial appeal, that would never happen (as is also said by De la Sierra in another book, which is written in Dutch). New lets look at the full-seasons Pelé, Cruijff and Best played (where at NASL: 1 goal = 2 points; 1 assist = 1 point - so this system disadvantages Best and Cruijff who are both more dependable on the assists they make): Pelé 1976 - Cosmos had a total of 204 points, Pelé gained 44 points (= 0.22), 2nd most of team Pelé 1977 - Cosmos had a total of 153 points, Pelé gained 29 points (= 0.19), 2nd most of team Best 1976 - LA Aztecs had a total of 112 points, Best gained 37 points (= 0.33), 1st of team Best 1977 - LA Aztecs had a total of 185 points, Best gained 40 points (= 0.22), 2nd of team Best 1980 - Earthquakes had a total of 138 points, Best gained 27 points (= 0.20), 2nd of team Best 1981 - Earthquakes had a total of 142 points, Best gained 36 points (= 0.25), 1st of team Cruijff 1979 - LA Aztecs had a total of 180 points, Cruijff gained 44 points (= 0.24), 1st of team Cruijff 1980 - Diplomats had a total of 201 points, Cruijff gained 40 points (= 0.20), 2nd of team [To repeat it once more (because it is important to keep in mind): 1 goal = 2 points, 1 assist = 1 point.] Put in a different way: Pelé 1976: 2nd most points of team, 2nd most goals, 1st in assists Pelé 1977: 2nd most points of team, 2nd most goals, 5th in assists Best 1976: 1st most points of team, 1st most goals, 1st in assists Best 1977: 2nd most points of team, 2nd most goals, 1st in assists Best 1980: 2nd most points of team, 2nd most goals, 1st in assists Best 1981: 1st most points of team, 1st most goals, 1st in assists Cruijff 1979: 1st most points of team, 1st most goals, 1st in assists Cruijff 1980: 2nd most points of team, 2nd most goals, 1st in assists And the last one played apparently (as found by Arsenij) even as outright defender/libero in some games. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...nd-goals-scored.1865250/page-65#post-26578181
@ Puck, I said I somewhat agree ... about Cruijff effect in NASL (he got weaker team then NY cosmos of Pele = AGREE SO) All I said was that despite of being OLDER (35-37yrs old) Pele never showed as "weaker contender" in TOP NASL players to Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Chaglia , abd G Best who were all younger - that's all. Form is temporary but "class" is permanent
There's no doubt about that but Pelé played with many 'all stars'... Chinaglia, Beckenbauer, Mifflin, Eddy... In some years they limited the number of Cosmos inclusions 'artificially' (1977 for example)... http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/nasl/naslallstar.html http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/year/1977.html#NASL (look at the 'point' leaders and how they choose to overlook Chinaglia but not Pelé) Best was in 1976 the only 'all star' of his team. In 1977 one of the two. Cruijff was both in 1979 and 1980 the only of his team. Because you said: "However in Play OFF games (more important), Pele shone more then Cruijff and Best", which is not the first time I saw that appearing, I made such lengthy response on this occasion...
STATS wise, Pele = Cruijff in NASL regular season in play off, Pele SHONE bright and better Cruijff and G Best = fact. ============================== The "better team" was hidden just like the age (Pele was 3 years older - much worse for player in such age) I meant, with same team support, Pele shone even BETTER in BIG GAMES = that's all
Hey Puck. did you recall what was the reason Cruijff finally turned down to play for NY Cosmos (he did play a few games with them there though) NY Cosmos retired Pele's number 10 shirt
All I say that the situation of Pelé was incomparable with the one of Best and Cruijff, who were the only All Star of their team (exception is Best in 1977). Lets revisit Pelé his NASL playoff record. In 1976 the Cosmos bowed in the 2nd round of the play-offs (play-offs had 4 rounds in total). Pelé was, to his credit, directly involved in all three Cosmos play-off goals. However, the 1976 "All-Star Team" had four New York Cosmos players. 1977 was known for being Pelé his last year in professional football. In the video below you can players hear talking about how hard they will work for their star player. Indeed, this year (1977) they made it to the play-off final and won the final. The Cosmos had this year two players selected in the "All-Star Team" (Pelé and Beckenbauer). There's a book that has the statistics for all players, written by Colin Jose, but I don't have that at me right now. This website has however a selection of the foreign stars in the NASL. http://homepages.sover.net/~spectrum/nasl/naslstar.html Of the selected players listed in the website above, these New York Cosmos players below had a better points total in the 1977 NASL play-offs than 'star asset' Pelé: Chinaglia - 6 games, 20 points, 9 goals, 2 assists Steve Hunt - 5 games, 15 points, 4 goals, 7 assists Pelé - 6 games, 12 points, 4 goals, 4 assists Probable missing player: Tony Field (21 points, 6 goals and 9 assists in regular season; cf. Pelé with 29 points, 13 goals and 3 assists). So, an incomparable situation. NB: I don't dislike Pelé, to state that clear. In that sense this is off-subject.
I love the idea of this thread. Only read the first couple of posts. My first nomination: Steven Gerrard. Man, I loved that it was him that missed the pass, and subsequent slip, that allowed the first Chelsea goal!
read well again, I said Pele was doing rather well at his age (comparable to Best and Cruijff at younger age) and FACT= Pele shone brighter in play off. (did not drive to the thing that he was "better" then Cruijff or Best - as I never said that) FACT: Pele was 3 times in Play-OFF all star teams (75-77) in all 3 seasons he was there, and won 1 MVP in 77. Stats did not show the whole story, as Chinaglia was ONLY once in All star 77,(Best was in 2 all stars 76 and 77) Steve Hunt NEVER was in any all star team with Pele's team
If the stats that @Puck gave are right, then Cruyff had the best performances. He completely outdoes the others in assists per match.
If I might say, you should read well. The part of the reply I responded to, and started this conversation, is this one. "In NASL even at older age, Pele never was any worse (if not even betetr) then Best and Cruijff there" https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/players-you-dislike.2003487/page-3#post-30028162 It was not the first time I saw that claim passing by, so this time around I took the effort to investigate this a little bit. As shown above, that remains to be seen. In 1976 he played with three other 'All Stars' and did not get beyond the 2nd round. In 1977 he was still the main guy obviously, the ticket-seller, but at least two other players of his team gained more points in the play-offs. See above. Pelé won the league MVP in 1976, which was assigned by the league organization after consulting active players. This was, however, not for the play-offs. Pelé wasn't in 1977; not by the league, not by the players and also not by the press. Chinaglia wasn't an "All Star" in 1977. He was in 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982. Not in 1977. Yes, I said that. In 1976 as only player of his team. That's correct, but I did not claim otherwise. He was just listed as Cosmos player with a better points total in the 1977 play-offs (which Cosmos happened to win; in which "Pelé shone bright" as you claimed without qualifications in place).
New additions as far as I'm concerned: Schweinsteiger, Kroos. Neuer was announced as 'best goalkeeper in the world' by the stadium announcer, said the commentator. "At the usual intonation... We're in Bavaria" clarified the commentator. LOL. Love that. Ribery: for literally being a child raper and his face. After the 0:1, the predictable revenge foul came. To show who is boss over the game; textbook strategy. On star player Ronaldo by Dante... Also predictable was that Dante more or less came away with it. Not really surprising any more, but it remains an annoying recurring pattern. Much thanks to Real Madrid.