Zidane vs Christiano Ronaldo

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by boldaring, Apr 23, 2007.

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  1. I-Got-The-BLUES

    May 1, 2006
    Orlando, Florida.
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    Just replying so it automatically subscribes me. As I've been reading your hatred (yes it seems like hatred) for the GREAT Zidane. So I anticipate the list of 20 better players in recent times better than Zidane (well 19, because we already know Totti's on your list)
     
  2. blanc

    blanc Member

    Jan 13, 2006
    Los Galácticos
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Good reply Tribune.

    Yes, he was amongst great teams, but when he joined them, he elevated them in aesthetics and beauty, AT LEAST. You can argue his volley against Leverkusen attained the greatest trophy of them all. I cannot place ONE player who could have been in that spot, who would have the audacity and skill to score that goal.

    Real has had lean years for awhile now, and it hasn't been down to our stars, more so our lack of depth and poor management. Zidane carried it, until unfortunately his fatigue caught up with him and the other Galacticos.

    You feel Zizou is/was filmsy artistry. I disagree with your lack of reverence towards artistry. I am sure statistics don't show how many times Zidane played the second to last killer pass or whatnot, and in the main I feel statistics irrelevant.

    Oh and yes, I do know Madrid's history, thank you very much. :) There were some lean years before Di Stefano, and he is a footballing God (above Pele and Maradona) in my eyes.
     
  3. blanc

    blanc Member

    Jan 13, 2006
    Los Galácticos
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You also said we won nothing domestically before the 50's, which is wrong. While we hardly expressed the dominance we had after the 50's, we still won quite afew titles, and argubly when we did dominate, the era of professionalism had actually began. Sooo ..

    League Titles: 1931/32, 1932/33
    Copa del Rey: 1904/05; 1905/06; 1906/07; 1907/08; 1916/17; 1933/34; 1935/36; 1945/46; 1946/47

    While it is not exactly the greatest trophy haul, it refutes that point, so you have one flawed argument ;)

    :p
     
  4. TKORL

    TKORL Member

    Dec 30, 2006
    Club:
    Valencia CF
    So far Tribune has put some solid arguments on the board. Most of the responses have been, "Zidane was an elegant player", "he elevated the sides he played for".

    Tribune is not denigrating artistry, but he is arguing that there are many artistic players in the game, but to make Zidane into a legend, he needs more than artistry. He is arguing that in terms of substance, Zidane does not stand out from his peers.
     
  5. Tribune

    Tribune Member

    Jun 18, 2006

    While his volley was great, it was not the first, nor the last top-class goal scored in a CL final. Some examples :
    - Dejan Savicevic goal against Barcelona in 1994 ;
    - Koeman's bomb in 1992 ;
    - Madjer backheel in 1987.

    Just 3 of the top of my head.

    That's why I did not even brought into the equation the period after 2004, because it would have been unfair towards Zidane to be held responsible for an incompetent management.

    While assists' statistics at club level are hard to find, it's easy to count them at WC level. Zidane had 2 assists : one versus Henry last summer and another one from a corner in 1998. Hardly the best in the business, especially since his job is to create. He does not score enough and he is not an assisting machine either... Is there any wonder that his teams did not manage to improve their already attained level too much ?

    If you are so fond of artistic players, I recommend you to try to get games of Brazil from 1982 and in general games of Zico. There are few players who managed to be also beautiful in their play and extremely efficient as him.
    I'll upload some games of him in the video forum, you can check there if you want. Since you mentioned killer passes, I recommend you 3 cases for study : Zico assist for Socrates versus Italy in 1982, the assist for Junior against Argentina in 1982, the killer pass for Branco against France in 1986. You will not find better killer passes than those no matter how much you try.

    One, the era of professionalism started a little bit earlier. The first generation of pros was the generation of Meazza, Leonidas da Silva and Charro Moreno. But that's beside the point.
    Turning back to the issue : I knew about your titles back in 1932 and 1933, I forgot to mention them because they were 2 decades before. But I think the improvement in your performances in the Di Stefano era is obvious. The last trophy you won was a Copa del Rey in 1947. Then there were six dry years, plus during that period you have your worse standing in the league, something like the 9th position around 1947 or 1948. At that time, you were literally trailing behind Barcelona and Atletico... in the best of cases !

    Examples : Enzo Francescoli, Zidane's childhood hero, and Fernando Redondo.
     
  6. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Tribune has made some very good, fair and solid points in this thread that have been wholly ignored by those touting Zidane.

    It would be nice to see them contested rather than skipped over.

    If I were to ask those who rate Zidane over anyone else from his generation...why he is 'better' than say: Sammer, Redondo, Rivaldo, Figo for starters, what replies would I get??
     
  7. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Tribune - I'm out of rep otherwise some would be coming your way. Extremely well put and pretty much sums up my thoughts on Zidane.
     
  8. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Good points Tribune. As much as I like Zidane, your points are not really questionable.

    However you focused too much on Zidane's club carreer I think.
    Zidane's NT carreer is a much different stuff - there is no doubt that his influence was huge on France's success and general level of play between 1994 and 2006 (especially 1998-2002 and 2005-2006), much more than on the successive clubs he played with in the meanwhile. His level of play was much higher and consistent with France.

    You'll rightfully tell me that he was surrounded by other great players and especially an all-time best defense with Desailly, Thuram, Deschamps etc. but the French team would have never achieved so much in 1998, 2000 and 2006 without him. France was crap when Zidane was injured (WC2002), off-form (EC2004... even though he scored four goals) or during his retirement in the WC2006 qualifiers.

    Even his stats stats show his efficiency for France - he scored 31 goals and he had 23 assists in 108 caps. But they don't say everything - when he was on the field, France only lost 5 games between 1994 and 2006. When he was off the field due to coaching, injury or retirement (2004-2005), France lost 10games and drawed quite a lot. The fact is that France could never really play well without Zidane or with an off-form Zidane (which was quite rare to be honest). His influence on the field was huge like Platini in the past. That's the big difference with his club carreer.
     
  9. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Maldini, Lizarazu, Carlos, Zambrotta, Cafu, Zanetti, Nesta, Campbell, Stam, Ayala, Blanc, Desailly, Thuram, Ferdinand, Giggs, Figo, Overmars, Redondo, Keane, Scholes, Cocu, Makelele, Vieira, Davids, Ballack, Effenberg, Matthaus, Scholl, Veron, Paulo Sousa, Micoud, Mendieta, Riquelme, Rui Costa, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Totti, Zola, Del Piero, Baggio, Nakata, Ronaldo, Raul, Bergkamp, Henry, Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Shearer.

    That's 50 odd off the top of my head.
     
  10. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    Tribune - very well argued points. The post a little further up should be a staple of the oh-so-frequent Zidane threads. It would be nice to see some considered responses from the pro-Zidane camp.

    Repped, and well deserved.
     
  11. dryan

    dryan New Member

    Mar 21, 2005
    Hahahahaha. Are you just trolling this thread or what?
     
  12. I-Got-The-BLUES

    May 1, 2006
    Orlando, Florida.
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    Half of your list is damn near laughable....which is more than likely due to your hatred of Zidane

    The other half is debatable, I'd disagree with 90% of it, but I can see how you could argue strongly in favour of them
     
  13. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    We are talking about their quality, performances and influence over the stated time period. Zidane would be involved in my next batch but he does not beat the vast majority of those listed. To put it another way, think about the best XI over the last 10 years, then create a second XI and even a third XI. Zidane would not be in the first three teams I would create which, by extension, means he is not amongst the best 33 players. I was only asked to list 20. While we might all disagree over the exact 20 listed, almost everyone who is not biased by aesthetics could name 20 better players.
     
  14. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [youtube]dYUtKKbBTkw[/youtube]

    :D
    I love reading this thread
     
  15. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    [devil's advocate] Not really. [/devil's advocate]
     
  16. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Why don't you contribute to it then and try to answer some of the questions posed?

    I understand the point you are trying to make but you have missed mine. I am trying to get people to construct functioning teams and think about players from every position over the defined time period. Perhaps in doing so they might realise the quality of player Zidane is up against. Has he had a better time period than a Schmeichel, Maldini, Nesta, Makelele, Keane, etc? The answer is no. When you consider players from every position and look at their quality, performances and influence, my claim of 20 better players is not as shocking as some think. What is your opinion on Zidane and how he ranks? Have you thought about trying to constuct teams?
     
  17. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    In case my endorsement of Tribune earlier and my flagging 'devil's advocate' didn't make it clear, I don't think Zidane is the best player of recent times. There are a fair number of players I'd rate ahead of him - I'm not going to get into the arbitrarily-defined lists game.

    Pointing out a problem with your team-building suggestion doesn't mean that I missed the point. Your intention was fairly clear, and useful as far as it goes in that it might help some people to realise how many quality players of different styles there have been. However, the logic of 'top 3 teams = top 33 players' is flawed. Regardless of agreeing with the overall sentiment, that had to be pointed out. No big deal.
     
  18. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Unfortunately pointing it out will no doubt lead to Zidane fans simply not bothering.
     
  19. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    Ah, but now I can carry on my life with a clean conscience, safe in the knowledge that I averted a possible logical disaster. I might go to bed now - it's the most productive thing I'll do all day.
     
  20. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is this a list of people better then Zidane

    If it is what is it based on
     
  21. O Fenômeno

    O Fenômeno New Member

    Apr 21, 2007
    New Jersey
    look zidane is better than cristiano ronaldo....where all this other crap come from.

    And teso what exactly are you trying to argue here??
     
  22. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    he thinks Zidane is overrated
     
  23. I-Got-The-BLUES

    May 1, 2006
    Orlando, Florida.
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Jamaica
    The 1st name that popped out at me, before I actually read your list, was Makelele, how do you justify Maka being a better player than Zidane?
    Say you have a team of worthless players, can't play football to save their lives, and you have the choice between Maka and Zidane, you would honestly pick Maka?
    What would Maka bring to that team, that would make the team better than if Zidane was there?

    Definitely not taking a shot at what Makelele brings to the game, but what elevates him to be a better player than Zidane?

    (Not a challenge, I'm trying to see this from your point of view, I understand you think he's overrated, but just trying to see what makes these contemporary greats all greater than Zizou)
     
  24. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Makelele's time at the 'top' (in relation to performances and influence) was simply for a far greater period of time than Zidane.
     
  25. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What do you mean he was more significant to his team

    Maybe its all relative

    But Zidane is a far better player
     

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