Liek I mentioned, it's a yes and no. Generally speaking Euro leagues are tougher in physicall challenge and harder for longevity ... from late 80's to now. And that "general speaking" is usually tied with such time frame as "more modern eras" Last bold> Pele could NOT go to europe, despite of many appraches from big clubs like Barca, Juve Milan ManU .. with all kind of "wordl record" at time 60 to 66. But there were so many reasons: 1- Brazil president claimed Pele is a "national treasure" so that Santos could never allow such transfer materialized. 2- On top of the fact Santos were so "HAPPY" with Pele's leading the team to all kind of success there! 3- At that time, the notion of "prestige" to play in Europe was NOT a big deal for SA player. Especially Pele more than many times led Santos thrashing several top Euopean clubs. Now IF and ONLY IF< Pele and his co lost more games to Europa leagues or even thrashed by them ... then it would make a different point for Pele to RETHINK! But it was not the case at all. Pele felt he is best in SA and as "famous" as he is there worldwide, and no difference for him to play in Europe. (not like Romario, Ronaldo, or Neymar time)
In those lines I can see you're admitting or at least implying that the unbeknown features in Brazilian league makes it a more competitive league than European. There's no clear fan support dominance in any state championship nor Brasileirao tournament, whereas in Spain (for example) it's either Barca or the Madrid's. In Holland it;s either Ajax or Feyenoord (in terms of support). The English premiere is the European league that comes close to Brasileirao in terms of general support. Every season is unpredictable. Which is why I tend to believe that EPL is way more competitive than La Liga.
And to top off. In Europe players have to train and play matches in cold weather (during winter months) whereas SA is relatively nice weather all year round (with the exception of some months in Argentina sure). In terms of physicality it's clear that Europe is stronger and shortens longevity. It;s my believe that Romario, would have never reached above 800 goals allround if he'd stayed in Europe. Perhaps in Holland, but not bigger leagues. Muller, Puskas are the exception because it was a different era. Europe 90's-present a way harder than Europe 50's 60's, 70's for sure.
It is the other way around. 90s till present is easier as 60s-80s. In terms of scoring and cleanliness of defence. Why do you think that? When Zico moved to Udinese btw he complained how defences were tighter in Europe and the circumstances harsher. More physically demanding. He really did that. And not only in Serie A for him, but he talked about Europe in general.
Agree so. But even if he would stay longer in Europa and only scored <600goals ... he was still among the very best strikers of all time for his talent. Sometimes, STATS is misleading ... and one gotta be careful with them. Like Messi and CR7 goals stats in this era, no one would or could believe they doing that and they did. However, just base on their goals in number and conclude they are great (against otehr top all time) is so naive and to quick to jump to conclusion. For example (*I mentioned in other post) - Barca 2010-now: allowed < 0.8 gpg - well they look great in defense no? or so Valdes, Piquet, Alba Alves ... are all great DF players? H3ll NO. But in the same sense, that "strong defensive STATS" somewhat helping Messi into a much better mentality to attack and score many goals. Rule of thump" it's easier to create chances or scoringgoals when your team are in domination, than anotehr desperately looking for goals under pressure of being attacked
Because Brazilian league (in general terms) was a harder championship the 80's than in the 90'2, let alone 2000's. I'm not contesting which league was stronger. What I'm saying is that in the spirito the discussion on longevity, it's evident that a weaker league will allow longer longevity relatively more than a stronger league. Thus it was easier for Romario to score hundreds of goals in late 90's, early 2000'2 in Brazil then if he stayed in Europe (LA Liga) post 1995. He would still have scored alot but no way near his actual record.
Like I said, I don't talk about better or worse but the style is different and has always been different. A so called 'weak league' can still have a physically gruelling style.
He would still have scored a lot. But don't forget. Romario in 95 and beyond was carried in a silver plate by Flamengo. And Vasco gave him even more privileges e.g. less training, deciding which games he'd play, deciding the team and tactics etc. That's the reason why he fell out with Luxemburgo and other coaches constantly. In Spain he would have been sacked! The man had it a lot more easier in Brazil then Spain. Thence he scored a lot more post-prime (>1995, Brazilian leagues) than prime (<95, Holland and Spain). I doubt that knowing his laziness he would have performed like in flamengo or Vasco. Cause, to my knowledge that's the main reason why he left in the first place. He choose the easy way out.
Zico did actually say " in SerieA the DF never leave us alone " - meaning he was heavily marking all game. SerieA in the 80's were the worst time for any attacker ... most teams played close to " Catenaccio " with heavy man marking, defense first and counter attack after.
Regarding Zico's greatness, right after another "failure at WC86" for Brazil (despite of being a favorite just like 82) here is a special Placar edition about "What's next for Brazil in WC90, and WHO WILL BE NEW #10 to inherit Zico's shirt" for Brazil NT: "... Already a generation of Zico , who now comes to an end , was marked by a few defeats indigestible , like the tragedy Sarria , in 1982 , and the lottery of penalties of Jalisco , on the 21st of June. Brazilian football looking for a new shirt 10 " The big title said (direct translated) "The MAGIC #10 shirt" and "ZICO APPOINTS HIS HEIRS " (in next WC) Here under are a few (possible) names (and they put in analysis of their skillset at time side by side) After some throrough analysis on their skillset, playing style and achievement at clubs this is the CONCLUSION: 1- Bebeto: a great potential for W90 team but he will be more of a number #7 or #11 as typical forward or support striker. He did not have good vision, leadership and dribbling solo of Zico! NO 2- Romario: another great ball skill player who can score "like Zico" . But same as Bebeto, he was just a #9 or #11 - not a true heir to wear Zico's #10! NO 3- Silas: a very talented MF but he is more like a number 8 (AM) he did not have a decisive pass, vision and lastly not even close to Zico's shooting ability. NO .... and same thing with Edu, Valdo ... (see above table) They asked Zico about the incidence for Brazil future WC and he said: "Look Brazil NT were always a great country that had reputation to produce great talents. I have no doubt, sooner or later we'll have another great to wear such a MAGIC #10- not in the same mould of Pele but maybe a Jair, Didi or Rivelino" Then Placar asked around "Who do you think as the greatest #10 right now or will be?" Ironically the answer is all the same " The one who is fascinating, exciting, inevitable to wear #10 is Maradona. It seems GOD has appointed him to be" Too bad he is not a Brazilian! But Placar did put his image in a big page with "Magic #10 shirt" BTW ... That said " Maradona and the ball as his designated partner, they swing and samba. The way they tango, no defenders shall get close to interfere"
I haven't watched much of 1980s Serie A, but I think that "Catenaccio" tradition was carried on into the early 1990s, because Roberto Baggio was brutally man-marked or just brutally stalked by numerous defenders (as opposed to just one designated man-marker), despite him being considered an "Italian golden boy" at the time. I can imagine that non-italians such as Marco Van Basten or Zico or Maradona, perhaps received even harsher treatment. But even so, I am absolutely positive, that no football player today, in any league, is as heavily marked as Baggio was in the early 1990s. I have mentioned Baggio more than the other names, because he is the only one I have extensively watched, out of all the players that I've mentioned.
again, WRONG, the most heavily marked out with 2,3 DF in modern serieA was whoelse but Il Fenomeno. you have not watched him at all in 98 ... where earned such a nick name by Italian press ... Ronaldo was back then seen as nitemare for any team defense .. as they HAD NO SOLUTION you just exaggerated Baggios there. He wass great but NOT close as a "most feared " Ronaldo, in 98. For your info, Maldini, Nesta, Desailly, Canavaro, Ferrara .. all were victims FALLING to ground by his dribbling and speed ... (the only player in serie A at time was not fallen by him was Thuram ... ) =========================================== After seen and experienced with Ronaldo in SerieA, both Desailly and Thuram brought up the issue "how to stop Ronaldo at WC98 final" with their team - despite of Frane team were among the very best ever defensive team in WC history: and Maldini ( the best DF at time 90's )also stated: "Ronaldo was the most difficult opponent since last maradona" ------------------------------------------------ I had NOT YET seen any big concern (from top teams nor from top great DF about how to stop Baggio at all)
I don't care about quotes from Maldini, to be perfectly honest with you. But I'll tell you this, R9 never scored better goals than Baggio at any of his WCs. R9 never scored better goals than Baggio against AC Milan. A half-fit Baggio in 1994 left a longer lasting impression than a fit R9 did in 1998. Why? Furthermore, I have personally never seen R9 marked as brutally as Baggio was. It has nothing to do with Baggio being "more difficult to mark", it is simply something that I've noticed about that era (early 1990s) of football, Serie A Football at that. And of course, last but not least..... R9 was "stopped" many times, by average teams, let alone the top teams. As usual, your man-love for R9 does not allow you to actually consider the actual point that was made, in this case, that Serie A Football of the early 1990s was more dirty and brutal, than Serie A Football of the late 1990s. If you disagree about that, fair enough. However, your points about "R9 being a nightmare for all defenders" have no relation to the actual point that was made, and just make you look foolish. (note: watch between 5:36 and 6:51) Fact or Fiction? Did Baggio not created a goal, out of nothing, starting on the territory of Maldini (left flank), leaving Maldini behind, and then scoring the goal in the end? I'm not sure if Maldini is the one who tries to tackle Baggio, or if Maldini is the one further up the pitch (thus leaving Baggio free from mark), but either way, Baggio started his run in an area that Maldini should have covered. I've never seen R9 executing such an intelligent and technical skill against a top class side such as AC Milan. I ask: when did R9 made a similar move against Maldini or AC Milan in general? When did R9 made Maldini "fall to the ground"? Can you please offer some video evidence to support your words? Would be appreciated.
The way you said " I am positive that Baggio was the mostand brutally marked player and no one else suffered more" was a HUGE off scale in facts. He was NOT as simple as that ... even in his time a Savicevic was more dangeorus man to be marked out than Baggio. Let me clarify: Baggio was a very talented with dribble and ballskills, but often he was a bit SLOW so it kinda "easy" for Good DF to mark him out, nor that they would so worry of him, that's all! Just like Zidane or Bergkamp ... same thing they were great players with skills to turn games around by their passing/vision but often tehy were slow and much less dangerous so DF woyld not so worry ... (as if they had to face R9) You claimed you watched Ronaldo played and if so you should have seen that ... I do not have to say or prove more. Unless you would say .. I did not really watch much of Ronaldo at his best then may be I will spend more time to show you ...
Here is for the news in Italy 1997, 1- Maldini (Paolo) was voted asthe most "loved" player in SerieA history, over Del Pierro and Signori. In parallel, his dad Cesare Maldini was the "most loved" coach of Italy Football (even more than a Bearzot who won WC82) 2- Ronaldo made his appeal and signing up to AIC (Italian Football Association) to press for the PROTECTION LAW of the players in Italy (SerieA) by end of 1997 (after his first half season suffering heavily marking and tackling unfairly) 3- Below is even bigger column: "Baggio was not included in Italy team by Cesare Maldini"
I never said that "I am positive that Baggio was the most brutally marked player and no one else suffered more". I must ask you, from where do you get your quotes? I'm asking because you often quote me on quotes that I never actually wrote. What I said about Baggio, is that out of all the players I've seen, he was one of the most brutally marked players, and that I am positive that R9 was not as brutally marked as Baggio was. To add to that, I actually conceded that Marco Van Basten (a non-Italian) might have gotten it worst than Baggio. To add to that, I would say that perhaps Maradona at the 1986 World Cup, received a similar treatment to the one that Baggio received week after week in Serie A football. I also think that Maradona was more brutally marked, at the 1986 World Cup, than R9 at any stage of his career. I don't mean to say that Maradona was harder to mark, and as a result was more heavily marked. My only point is that in my opinion, the late 1980s and early 1990s were more defensive and brutal, than the late 1990s and early 2000s. Simple point, yet, again, here I find you putting words in my mouth, yet again.
And that pretty much proves my point.... Do you remember Maradona making such an "appeal" for PROTECTION LAW? Do you remember Baggio making such an "appeal" for PROTECTION LAW? Yet R9 did it..... Why? Because Football, as a business, evolved, and R9 represented a lot of money for a big corporation called Nike. You want to act like R9 was a special case or "phenomenon" when the fact is that brutal defensive tactics were completely "normal" in Serie A football. Just look at Baggio, a player whose physique declined at an early age, quite possibly because of the defensive football of early 1990s Serie A. What happened to R9 was nothing new, Maradona experienced it, Baggio experienced, etc, but R9 played the game in a different era in which big corporations have more money invested in the sport. At least that's my opinion, and I'm quite positive about it.
Yes, Romario like Pele , Maradona were among the shorties but pretty good in the air ... Most often Pele was regarded as the best in the air (and header) despite of being 1,70 m
Not quite sure of your "positive" level though. Baggio was among the best player in SerieA in 90's along with Ronaldo, Del Piero, Weah, Savicevic , Signori ... (as FW) but he was NOT the "most brutally marked out player' like you claimed ... that MUST BE R9. This is NOT even a contest but FACT Just take 10 games of R9 in 98 vs 10 bets games of Baggio in 93, you would see the HUGE difference: everytime, R 9 had the ball (be in middle pitch or not) AT LEAST 2 Players approached and tried to STOP him. If he had the ball near the box, another player would come to make it 3! Baggio had often ONE player following him but thats' NORMAL for any good player since SerieA at time was famous for Catennacio + man marking! ================================================ You are so funny ... and always BLAME on NIKE for anything R9 did! WHy NOT NIKE make a Baggio or a Sheva another "fenomeno"??? becuase they were NOT
Romario did score with his head but not much and often unchallenged I'd say. I see Raul Gonzalez as a better header in a few ways, although he was a little bit taller but on the other hand less physically gifted.
Yeah ... in a sense that "relatively" to all other Brazilians, Romario was regarded as "arguably" best in the air at that time! He was indeed very flexible and agile to that challenge! But it's hard to dispute whether he was as good as Bierhoff or Crespo is another story ... as they were all TALLER Raul ONCE, was regarded as a "goldenboy" of Real as he was so good in his younger seasons (98-01) there= a "near complete forward" with big potential ... however his level was just become worse and faded out slowly! To be honest I do not rate both Romario and Raul header as among the notably names. They were very good but that's IT! Note that they both RARELY SCORE (that many) header goals ... BTW ...
Anyway, back to Zico! If Maradona was a God in Napoli, Zico was at least a demi GOD at Udinese (despite of just over one season and not full fit playing there) This is Udinese Best XI all time: (3 2 2 3) Morgan DE SANCTIS 1999-(GK) After two seasons as a highly-rated but hardly-used youngster at Juventus, De Sanctis joined Udinese in 1999. The Azzurri shot-stopper has not looked back since, forcing his way into the first team and only narrowly missing out on a place in Marcello Lippi’s 2006 World Cup winning squad. Valerio BERTOTTO 1993-06 (RDF) Snapped up from Serie C2 outfit Alessandria in 1993, Bertotto has gone down in history as Udinese’s most loyal and passionate hero after an astounding 13-year career in Udine. Holding the club record of 323 Serie A appearances, Bertotto famously burst into tears when the Bianconeri were beaten by Barcelona in the 2005-06 Champions League group phase tie. EDINHO 1982-87A (LDF) close friend of Zico, Edinho joined the Brazilian revolution at Udinese in the 1980s. With 87 international caps to his name and appearances at three consecutive World Cups, he is widely regarded as one of the best defenders ever to pull on the Selecao shirt. Nestor SENSINI 1989-93 & 2002-06 (DF/libero) Despite his disastrous spell as Coach in 2006, Sensini will go down as one of Udinese’s most loved players. After moving to the club from South America, he quickly became one of Serie A’s most respected defenders. He then returned to the Friuli after spells with Parma and Lazio, where he won the 2000 Scudetto. Stefano FIORE 1999-01 (RMF) Fiore holds Udinese’s record for Italy caps with 18 during his time with the club, and shot into the limelight before becoming the Zebretti’s record sale when he joined Lazio for £15m. Also scored one of the goals of the tournament at Euro 2000 in the 2-0 win over Belgium. He went on to earn a further 20 Italy caps and represent Lazio, Fiorentina and Torino as well as an unhappy spell in Spain with Valencia. ZICO 1983-84 (CAM/play maker) Widely regarded as one of the best players ever to grace a football pitch anywhere, Zico surprised Europe by joining a struggling Udinese side in the mid-‘80s to rival Diego Maradona and Michel Platini for the title of Serie A’s best. He attracted worldwide interest to the Friuli, but was sadly unable to secure the silverware his performances deserved. Franco CAUSIO 1981-84 (MF) Causio may be better remembered for his time with the all-conquering Juventus team of the 1970s, but it is often forgotten that he was playing for Udinese when he won the 1982 World Cup with Italy. It may have come at the tail end of his career, but 'Il Barone' was still a firm favourite in Udine. Arne SELMOSSON 1952-55 & 1961-64 (LMF) The Swedish star originally joined Udinese in 1952, but was forced to watch on for his first year due to the ban on foreign players in Serie A. Nicknamed 'Moonbeam' for his strikingly blonde hair, he famously combined with the Zebretti’s record goalscorer Lorenzo Bettini in the 1954-55 season before leaving for Lazio. He then returned to the Bianconeri six years later to help the side in Serie B. Abel BALBO 1989-93 (RFW) Balbo still holds the record as Serie A’s all-time highest scoring foreigner. The Argentine striker first arrived in Italy with Udinese and was an instant hit, netting 33 of his total 138 strikes with the Zebretti. He may be better known for his time with Roma, but like many players it was in Udine that he made his name. Oliver BIERHOFF 1995-98 (CF) The German star is better remembered as George Weah’s strike partner at Milan, but enjoyed his best years alongside Marcio Amoroso at Udinese. Bierhoff scored a club record 27 League goals in his final season at the Friuli after signing from Ascoli and scored an amazing 57 times for the Bianconeri in just 86 appearances. Marcio AMOROSO 1996-99 (LFW) When Oliver Bierhoff left for Milan many were worried whether Amoroso would still be as successful without his strike partner. But the Brazilian silenced his critics by becoming Capocannoniere. He later moved to Parma for £15m, but failed to recreate the same form at the Tardini or in later spells with Borussia Dortmund, Malaga and Milan. THE COACH:Alberto ZACCHERONI 1995-98 After some moderate success in Serie C and B, Udinese’s appointment of the unheard of Zaccheroni as Coach in 1995 raised a few eyebrows. He secured a mid-table finish in his first season, but once the rebuilding was finished they stormed up the rankings with his trademark 3-4-3 formation. Departed to Milan in 1998 after guiding the Zebretti to their highest ever finish of third place, and won the Scudetto in his first year with the Rossoneri