Zach v. Guevara - A different Brian Hall thread

Guevara and Zach had been jawing at each other for some time prior to the goal; I think Zach was PO'd at him for making a rash challenge earlier.

Personally, I would have booked them both. Guevara's charging into the net to collect the ball was a provocative act, given the fact that there had been some verbal sparring going on already. It seemed to me on the replay that Guevara had his arms around Thornton before Thornton threw him into the side netting. As the announcer said, that's not a fight Guevara is going to win (or most anyone else in MLS, for that matter). Guevara also went down like Thornton had hit him with a baseball bat, but Hall was too close at that point to fall for it.

 

I thought he handled the situation pretty well. He was literally right in the middle of them when they were scuffling, and seemed to anticipate pretty well that such a thing was likely to happen. I think the card to Zach was probably justified given the big shove he gave Guevara. Had he simply let him go with the referee right there there would have been no card. That was the first NJ goal, right? After the second goal Hall raced to the net to get the ball himself.

I've never been a big fan of Brian Hall, but I think he was right on top of this particular play. And I think it is instructive to the rest of us. Especially when time is winding down like that and the trailing team scores, the referee needs to be right down there in the net to retrieve the ball himself and also to be a presence that limits the scuffling and nonsense. We shouldn't be looking down to record the goal and so forth until we clearly have the players separated and there is a second to take a breather and do what we need to do. Also important for the ARs to follow the right mechanics too in case their assistance is necessary.

 

I too saw the incident and watched it again on tape. There was another Metro player retrieving the ball in the corner next to Thornton and Guevara. The camera cut away, I don't know if Zak was impeding the other player, but then the camera returned, guevara had his arm around Thornton's neck (no mean feat); looks like he's trying to keep his balance, as he's right against the side netting. Just before the shove, he gives Thornton's neck a pretty good squeeze. Zak puts his palm to Guevara's face (kind of like E. G. Robinson with that grapefruit) and pushes. Guevara falls into the side netting, looks surprized, and drops like a box of rocks, holding his face.

As was stated, Hall wasn't sold that it was more than a shove, and I expected cards to both players, with Thornton getting, um, I dunno, an orange? I have no problem with the call made: Hall was right on top of it. And as GlennAA11 says so well, Hall continued good game management as things wound down.

BTW, thanks to all you guys for running such an enjoyable and informative board. I really learn a lot lurking here.

dadman

 

From what i remember and i haven't seen any video since the match itself, but it seemed to be more than a hand to the face. It looked like he gave Amado a forearm to the face rather than a just his hand.

Having played this game all my life, i have to defend the players running into the net to get the ball. It doesn't matter how many Metros were in the net to go retrieve the ball, but just the fact that that was their intention. It's just a typical thing that happens when a keeper gets scored on late in the match and his team is winning. He wants to delay the restart as much as possible and sometimes, this is the result.

Frankly, I can't stand Brian Hall and i have nothing good to say about him. Whether or not Thorton was provoked into doing what he did doesn't matter. He should have simply have been shown red or BOTH players should have recieved a yellow. The fact that he only gave the one yellow just tells me that it's ok to go ahead and shove or give elbows to people in retaliation for something that might have been said or done. Hall is an idiot as are most referees in this country.

 

I appoligize for "slaggin" refs and yes I am certified. But there is something that has to be said about officiating in this country when it comes to this sport. It just seems that it is at a different level than other regions around the world. Maybe it's the way the rules are interpreted here rather than lets say anywhere else in the Americas. It's just not up to par in this country for whatever reason.

 

Overall, I can't agree with you on this one. I watch a LOT of European and a decent amount of South American soccer and there are questionable calls in all leagues. I don't think that the game in the US is mature yet like it can be elsewhere in the world and that shows up at all levels -- fans, play and refereeing. But overall, we're pretty solid.

There are DOZENS of calls that get blown at ALL levels of games -- a perfect example is the blown offside call in the England v. Slovakia game last week. Stephen Gerard had 3 players behind him and was onside by a full yard but the AR blew the call and disallowed a goal.

As far as the call in question here -- I saw the game -- not just a highlight or anything, I watched the entire game. Personally, I think a yellow to Zach was appropriate. In my opinion, Guevera should have also gotten a yellow (he had Zach around the neck). I just saw the highlight again last night and when it happens and Guevera crumples like he's been shot, Hall actually laughed at him and shook his head -- Guevera clearly embellished and Hall knew it.

I know that some referees would have red carded Zach in such a situation and I wouldn't have been "ballistic" with ire at such a decision, but I think the right card was shown.

 

I'm not going to dissagree that in general all over the world and at all levels there are calls that are blown but it just seems to me that it happens more often than not here in the US.
We are human afterall and we all have made those bad calls. I know i have anyway.

 

"A different Brian Hall thread". Is that like "A very special Blossom"?

 

I think the ref went a little easy on Thornton because he is generally pretty good-natured. Zack could easily have badly hurt the kid from SJ a couple of weeks ago when he went after a ball inappropriately, but he let up a little bit.

 

Heres a link to the replay. Judge for yourself.

http://play.rbn.com/play.asx?url=ml...2003_CHIMETleblanc.asf&proto=mms?mswmext=.asx

 

Kev (and others, obviously): do you think Hall may have been more likely to show red to Thornton had Guevera not done a Rivaldo and embellished excessively?

 

Tonight, on a very special MLS Wrap...

 

Re: Tonight, on a very special MLS Wrap...

From now on, it should be against the rules for keepers to go out and catch crosses.

 

Re: Re: Tonight, on a very special MLS Wrap...

I hope guys who start "new rules to increase scoring" threads aren't reading this

 

I don't think Zach would have seen red if Guevara hadn't gone down the way he did. Actually I think that's part of the reason he got a yellow. Look at the violence that is allowed in MLS which is much worse than what Zach did in this particular case. It didn't look anything red card-worthy to me. Certainly not in context of the whole game and most games in the league.

 

Did Guevara embellish? Or was it a combination of the awesome force that is Zack (the Firefans are defending Zack using this) and him being off balance?

I thought this was much worse than what Beckham got red for in '98. Maybe you give AG a yellow, maybe not. But Zack not getting a red immediately put me in mind of that open letter from last fall.

MLS encourages its refs to wuss out.

 

This incident shows the eternal love that forwards and keepers have for each other.

I saw the game on TV and replayed that altercation a few times. Claymore’s description and recommendation seem correct to me. It’s being discussed on other boards and I see no reason to debate what really happened here. However. . . . . . The clip is on MLS Net under LeBlanc’s goal. Zack clearly (to the camera if not Hall) was in Guevara's face, had a hold of his jersey then pushed Guevara with the same hand. His fist full of jersey hit Guevara. Not to hard though so, to me, it was borderline Red.

Zack’s actions did NOT warrant a yellow card. This is where I disagree with Hall. If Zack did strike Guevara then Zack should get a Red. If he did not strike him then it is no foul (for striking). Maybe Hall was so close that he heard Zack say something hence the yellow. (Are game reports available on-line??)

Which brings up a good point. I am all for “game management” but the calls a referee makes should not be grossly distorted in the name of game management. The graduation of fouls does not go from IFK, DFK, yellow, to red. It’s not as if the referee has the right to decide something like, “Hmm he struck the other player but not in too mean a way so I’ll give him only a yellow.” ITOOR does not apply to the grade of the card. There is not a “Yellow for striking but not too hard.” Either it’s striking or it’s not.

 

Well . . . . I looked it up. The restart is a DFK (if done during the run of play) but it is not an automatic red. Good call MassRef.