Youth Academies and the College game

Discussion in 'MLS: Youth & Development' started by Marchetti, Aug 5, 2006.

  1. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Youth academies ... I dunno. Let's look at the situation of some local U14s -

    Year-around training 3x weekly coached by a Brazilian ex-international player, option to practice 4x weekly or possibly even 5x by attending the sessions of other teams in the club. Costs $2000 per year but if a good player doesn't have money he will play for free. Transportation can be an issue. No club owns the kids' rights. Club is very well known by colleges and is very well positioned to place players into the appropriate college.

    Can somebody articulate the advantages of an MLS Academy in comparison with that arrangement?
     
  2. texgator

    texgator New Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Plano
    The availability of the option to train with the full professional team if the player is good enough. The transition to the professional environment from the amateur ranks is easier if the player knows the staff and the team. Granted, this only applies to a small percentage of kids who are now playing high level club soccer. I agree that the advantages are small for the kids themselves. Looking at what Texans has done for some kids in this area, I would look at FC Dallas Youth with a bit of a critical eye were my child to be a budding superstar. All these Texans kids we are reading about were invited to train with FC Dallas...and I don't see why FCD wouldn't continue to invite prospects from other area clubs to train with them in the future, new academy rules or not.
     
  3. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do people really think that parents and kids are going to turn their backs on the possibility (albeit not a great one) at a free college education for the chance to make $11,500 a year as an MLS developmental player?

    Just because MLS will set up a system doesn't mean people are going to jump in it in great numbers if eligibility is compromised. MLS setting up a development system will not override the cultural institution of college in a fell swoop. People will still want eligibility to be protected regardless of what some soccer fans think.
     
  4. texgator

    texgator New Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Plano
    Well, that's the big IF isn't it? No one knows if eligibility will be compromised, in fact, if I had to bet I would say they will do their best to make sure that it isn't. Today a player can be involved in an MLS-connected youth club, with connections to the local team, and then sign a contract with MLS and enter the draft. Up to the point they enter the draft they have compromised nothing. What's the difference with this setup, with the exception that instead of entering the draft they are allocated to the local club?? Nothing is compromised until the moment they sign a contract with the league. The question is, will MLS youth affiliated clubs be as attractive and competitive as the other local "super" youth clubs?
     
  5. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know. I'm just trying to add perspective since I know there will be a group that expects MLS to just put together professional academies and people to line up to enroll their kids.
     
  6. Flyin Ryan

    Flyin Ryan Member

    May 13, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watch out America, here comes Johnny X in 2007.
     
  7. texgator

    texgator New Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Plano
    No doubt....it's going to be much tougher than that. I just look at the area that I live and there are already 3-4 fantastic, well known, very productive youth clubs that FC Dallas Youth will have to compete with. And they will grow/stagnant/decline based on their own merits, not based on their affiliation with an MLS club. The MLS teams that manage to run strong academies will have a competitive advantage over the others, no question. And that's a good thing, IMO.
     
  8. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMHO, the MLS "academies" will have to focus more on being the best team in their areas and less on winning games against other MLS "academies" in the short term.

    When I was doing some research one day, I was looking at the Super Y teams for the harrisburg City islanders. In just three years, they have built up a pretty good USL organization with an extensive youth system. However, one thing jumped out at me - the SYL team is not to replace the local club team, but to supplement it.

    Amazing, a chance to play regionally against other elite playersm but the youth soccer lobby is so strong, they have probably convinced this upstart pro team to take a back seat.

    Those are the forces these "academies" will be up against. While it's nice to sit here and discuss how it will improve MLS< there are people who literally have their life's fortune tied up in youth clubs who couuld potentially harmed by this development. And there is the allure of college that is too easily dismissed by some soccer fans.

    This is a great development, but to think the youth soccer culture and drive for college will be torn apart in any large numbers is naive. This is going to take a long time to really take root.
     
  9. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    It can work and it can work fast, but the value proposition to the youth players must be real. Offering up an MLS shirt, similar training and game opportunities that the superclub players now enjoy, and the carrot of a $12,000 per year developmental contract doesn't strike me as sufficient.

    Problem is, the kids know what MLS pays. They'd be damn enthusiastic to join Liverpool's youth system, where the top players in the system instantly start getting real money upon signing pro contracts, and even the midlevel players have the chance of landing with Colaship and D1 squads and making a living wage pretty darned fast. But one slot a year at MLS major league minimum, plus a couple of $12k developmental slots? Sure, you'll get some soccer junkies happy to take that chance. But you're really limiting the talent pool by having the economics of Olympic-type events.
     
  10. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I don't see MLS offering that kind of money, especially since the CBS is only in its second or third year. I really can't see the MLSPU getting excited about a development that guarantees money to "academy players," without also upping the salaries for players already in the league. And I don't see the league ripping up the CBA and starting over just to help bolster the academies.
     
  11. texgator

    texgator New Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Plano
    In my mind, the kids that would make it through this system won't be your 4th round draft pick kind of players. We are talking the Freddy Adu's, the Danny Szetela type players. Kids who, at age 16-18, are ready to start training in a pro environment. Kids who will deman more than developmental money to sign. Not saying it's huge bucks, but it should be a good sight more than 12k a year.
     
  12. keem-o-sabi

    keem-o-sabi Member

    Sep 7, 2005
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I figure it will be like the NHL and the College Hockey. You have many different professional hockey leagues OHL, QMJL or whatever it's called, that is for 16 year olds+. So players can go that route or through the college ranks, just a little different than what MLS is proposing with the clubs actually forming their own academies and having the rights to those players. Maybe the players they don't choose to play on their sides go to the draft and that club be compensated per FIFA's regulations for their training and education.
     
  13. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember that most of the guys making 12k are guys who have played three and four years of college ball (but not all). And they're getting paid that because the choice is getting paid that and working 15 hours a week at a sporting goods store, or working 40 hours a week in an office and making close to the same. The office job will still be there when you're 27 and MLS and then the A-league are done with you.

    The kids who turn pro who have other soccer options (college, smaller Euro leagues), can usually command a much better salary. As an example, Will John and Chad Barrett began 2005 making twice as much as Chris Rolfe, not so much because they were better players but because they still had soccer options. Will Johnson wasn't, but his career clearly indicated he was determined to play pro soccer (traveling all over the damned place looking for an opportunity to do so), college never seemed to be much of an option to him. When Eddie Gaven and Memo Gonzalez joined the league, each got more than $65k a year to start. We know what Freddy got.

    So the lesson is, if you can get a pro club interested in your services before you go to college or even after a single year of college, you'll wind up in much better position to demand more money. You won't get rich, but then unless you ran rings around everybody at the U17 World Cup, you probably don't deserve to yet.

    Here are some 2006 salaries for straight to pros or one or two years of college MLS rookies:

    Estuardo Sanchez: $11,700
    Dax McCarty: $42,500
    Blake Wagner: $42,500
    Yura Movsisyan: $40,000
    Nate Sturgis: $78,000
    Josmer Altidore: $98,333
    David Arvizu: $37,500
    Marvell Wynne: $150,000

    Miguel Gonzalez and Carlos Borja qualify but I don't have their salaries. I'm guessing they're league minimum guys though. That's intersting in that combining them with Estuardo Sanchez, it's possible that the cultural difference in attitudes toward college and pro sports come into play here. A good starting point for MLS clubs to consider.

    Anyway, you see that if you can get an MLS club interested in you enough to offer you a pro contract before you've used up most of your college eligibility, you don't do too bad. Hell, I bet Movsisyan is dancing a freakin' jig at his good fortune.

    If you can't get an MLS club that interested in you, well then you go to college. I'm not sure it changes the academy dynamic either way, particularly when the idea is to develop players significantly better than Blake Wagner is.
     
  14. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    First point is that as far as the Liverpool youth team goes, these kids wouldn't be signing away anything. If they played for the Fire and then wanted to go to the 'Pool, there's nothing stopping them. Heck, if they played for the Fire youth for a year and didn't like it, they could always go to the Sockers from there. It's illegal for kids to be property.

    Secondly, one would hope the MLS development system would be fully funded, where the Sockers only give full rides to a relative handful, no?

    Now, as to the comparison between the coaching staffs, you have a point, and I think it will tend to vary by market. I doubt the Fire will actually 'win' Chicago any time soon. But then Chicago is perhaps the toughest test in the country, because two national powerhouses can suck up the cream of the crop. In contrast, it's hard to imagine that with any effort at all, RSL and the Wizards wouldn't dominate their markets. I expect DC United could win its market quickly if they're willing to give it some sincere effort. Red Bull damn near already has won its market.

    The LA clubs won't necessarily win quickly either, but they could pick up the table scraps from that market and still have some darned nice prospects.
     
  15. fireman451

    fireman451 Member+

    Jun 26, 2002
    The Midwest
    Club:
    --other--
    I agree with this generally. I think that MLS academies will eventually look a lot like MLB and their respective farm systems. MLS can sign young talent or organically produce young talent and sign some of these kids up to play for their team while allowing the acadmey to fine tune their skills, similar to the best HS baseball players signing with the Yankees, White Sox, Dodgers, etc and spending a few years with their farm clubs.

    Sure there will be some late bloomers and some players who choose free college over going to the MLS Team academies, but over time I think most of the top shelf talent will go to the academies from the get-go.

    Overall, I think MLS is moving in the right direction. Team academies will produce MLS-ready talent earlier.
     
  16. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    What would dominating those markets be worth from a developmental perspective?

    The player pool list for 2006 on the USSF site lists one player each as being from within a couple hours of Columbus (Rolfe), Denver (Casey), Dallas (Garcia), and Houston (Arnaud)- and none from around Salt Lake City, Boston, or Kansas City (I'm not counting Diego Gutierrez). Out of the 73 players on the list, there are a total of four marginal national pool players from seven of the current MLS markets.
     
  17. yankee_rob

    yankee_rob Member

    Aug 1, 2006
    London, England
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one on the pro level cares about university players in Europe. Youth Academies is the way to go, it will make our league better not the NCAAs. Last I am not a big fan of the draft. They should change the name to the MLS Super College Draft.
     
  18. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Always fun to see a thread like this resurrected (even if originally for OT reasons now moved off). I missed your reply the first time, but the answer is twofold:

    1) Because you would expect to developp new prospects, of course. If the results you're expecting don't differ from the present arrangement, why would you even have done it in the first place?
    2) Also because you would not measure that progress against the Nat player pool. The definition of a "development success" for an MLS club would be any player who plays well for you and then fetches a decent transfer fee, thus recouping the cost.
     
  19. ojsgillt

    ojsgillt Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Lee's Summit MO
    These academies will help the college game more than hurt it. True the 18 year old superstud won't be a freshmen he will be a professional, but everybody else who goes to the academies will have recruiters bangning down their doors. They get a chance to play more soccer at a different level while getting an education and more development time.
     
  20. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Yeah, that's why Maryland coach Sasho Cirovski was one of the first backers of the program. More kids will "fail" and go to college after this program than will go straight on to the next level (I put fail in quotes because many of those, in turn, will still be pros someday, just not neccessarily elite ones)--that's just in the nature of youth development. And those "failures" will still be better players for the experience. And they will be easier for college coaches to scout, bundled up into one league like that.
     
  21. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't imagine that it will be very difficult for the academies to offer education up to the high school level, that's already being done in places like Bradenton. What will be interesting is if MLS teams will partner with local colleges to be able to offer college education as an option for its post high school academy and reserve players.
     
  22. stlknited87

    stlknited87 New Member

    Oct 1, 2007
    Belleville, IL
    I don't think that the academies would ruin college soccer but it could effect it in a negative way. I think that its a great idea to give MLS teams the opportunity to train local players and have the initial rights at signing a contract. Mabey give them a certain amount of exclusive time to get a deal done or something of that matter or rights for transfer money if European clubs want to sign them.
    I would hope that it would not ruin the young players eligibility but im sure MLS is working that out with the NCAA in order to give that option to their players. I remember reading about the merger or 3 of the "Super clubs" in st. louis which will operate under the umbrella of the mls team if it comes in fruition that said they would work to let kids do what is best for them. I remember this because we had the same discussion in the st. louis forum and the article stated that the youth program would offer the top players to play with the pro's and if the young man wanted to go to college, they would suggest staying close by at SLU or SIU at Edwardsville so that the academy could continue to help them through college.
    The thing that i believe is the best about the academy system is local boys playing for the professional team. it will end up providing for another sense of pride when local guys are out on the pitch.
     
  23. Mullet&Talon

    Mullet&Talon New Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    College soccer is a joke as it stands. Until they start playing by the same rules as every other soccer league in the world, who cares. It has been the only 'next step' available to most players till now, but that does not mean that it develops talent
     
  24. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I rage on this as much as anyone on know.

    However... it is a bit disingenuous.

    The clock isn't really an issue. Yeah, it counts down to zero, and there'll be a 60 second TV timeout during the final, but basically it's still a 95 minute game.

    The substitutions are the big issue - until you look at the actual box scores. My experience with the Men's College Cup is that teams in the tournament almost never use more than 14 players in tight games. So, while Duke vs Lakewood in September might see wholesale substitutions, Maryand vs Nevada in the final won't.

    It's a mixed bag.

    I rage at college games to anyone that will listen that they need to go to FIFA substitution rules - but I know from experience that in the games that really matter, the top NCAA teams aren't really that far off.
     
  25. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Thanks for hitting this before I could, Andy. Unfortunately, these are two of those memes that once they get out there, they don't disappear, even when there's good reason.

    College soccer suffers a whole lot more from something simpler: no pros.
     

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