Which "journalistic sources"? Rooney with his 1 ESM team of the year inclusions is by journalistic consent a categorically better player than the ones with three inclusions spread over a decade?
I have handled different data. The monthly nominations for the ESM team is one of them. Logically, the Golden Ball, The Best, Fifa World Player, The Guardian, FourFourTwo, World Soccer, FifPro. Since the 2017-18 season, I have also considered the Sofscore and Whoscored ratings and the UEFA award votes, and as of 2018-19 I have also accumulated the DBS Calcio ratings. Any other proposal will be welcome. Year by year I am adding votes, percentages, sumo in excel table and gives a result. If you want, tell me which players could be superior to Rooney and I tell you in more detail.
Interesting that Gerrard is rated below Lampard, especially considering that it is an 'awards' based ranking. At the most basic level, Lampard was included in 3 PFA TotY in that period, while Gerrard was included in 8. Gerrard was also nominated for 6 PFA PotY in a roll, a record that he holds with HEnry.
Lampard also finished ahead of Gerrard in their peak ballon dor year (2005) What is clear is both having equally distinguished careers(it's definitely not a lopsided comparison) I'd argue Lampard was the single most complete midfielder of his generation A player who could defend, conduct play, execute all manner of passes and score goals at a very high degree Lampard was a 8/10 in most aspects of the game (His peak in my opinion and one of the most underrated PL campaigns of the last 15 or so years) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....emier-league-best-players-clubs-season?espv=1 It would be completely unfair to make a definitive statement based on a singular source (either just ESM or PFA nominations) I prefer the method of @Titanlux gathering multiple sources together which will eradicate (or at least minimize) the chances of bias What is for certain Is Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard and Frank lampard are the 3 greatest English players of their generation I hope talk and suggestions of Rooney being overrated is being done in relative terms It isn't conceivable that the top scorer of a historic club side as Manchester United and the English NT wasn't one of the star players of his generation
I have always found the comparison between these two players interesting. With the calculations I have made, Lampard appears in 22nd place and Gerrard, 28. Lampard's score would be approximately 7, 6% higher than Gerrard's. Between 2005 and 2010 were the years in which both had better scores. In 2005, Lampard obtained the 2nd best score and Gerrard the 3rd. Lampard ranks 2nd in the Golden Ball, Fifa World Player, RSSF and 3rd according to World Soccer. He appears on the ESM team of the year (34 votes throughout the season), FifPro and Onze magazine. Gerrard occupies the 3rd place in the Golden Ball, 5th in the Fifa World Player, 3rd in the RSSF and 2nd according to World Soccer It is also 3rd in the Onze d'Or. He does not appear in the ESM team of the year (15 votes throughout the season), FifPro and Onze magazine, but in the ideal UEFA team. In 2006, Lampard obtained the 10th best score and Gerrard the 22nd. Lampard obtains 3 votes in the Golden Ball, 31 in the Fifa Wolrd Player and 34 in the ESM voting, being in the ideal team of the year. Gerrard doesn't get votes in the Golden Ball, but in the FIFA World Player he gets more than Lampard (48). He has 13 votes in ESM (not on the team of the year). Repeat place in the ideal UEFA eleven. In 2007, Gerrard obtained a clear advantage both in the voting for the Golden Ball and in the Fifa World Player; In the FourFourTwo ranking, Gerrard is 6th, Lampard, 25th. Gerrard is included in the ideal UEFA and FifPro eleven, but, nevertheless, Lampard still has more ESM votes throughout the season, In 2008, Gerrard surpasses Lampard again (9th and 18th) respectively. Gerrard gets more votes in Ballon d'Or, Fifa World Player and ESM; In the FourFourTwo ranking, Gerrard is 10th, Lampard 13. Gerrard is included in the eleven of the FifPro. In 2009, Gerrard is 5th and Lampard 18th. Gerrard is again clearly superior to the number of votes in the Golden Ball and FIFa World Player. Gerrard is 7th in the 4-4-2 ranking; Lampard is 11th. In addition, Gerrard is included in the ideal eleven of the FifPro and the ESM. In 2010, neither Lampard nor Gerrard gets votes in Ballon d'Or and Fifa World Player. The big difference this year is that while Gerrard is not voted by any means of the ESM in the whole season, Lampard is the 2nd player who was voted the most times, being logically a component of the ESM team of the year.
Pirlo, Raul, Hazard, Harry Kane for example. I'm asking this with and open mind: how does Pirlo end up lower? His best WhoScored positions are even better than Rooney's best while not playing in a position (nor dribbling a lot) where's that obvious. How are his accolades and individual acclaim worse? N.B. If this table is an accurate reflection of press acclaim, then that once again shows there has been a snubbing of dutch (and belgian) players the past 25 years.
That's fair enough. I wasn't actually trying to advocate one player over the other. I didn't really think too deeply or knew about your calculations method of course. I was simply surprised by Lampard being in a whole different class over Gerrard, when judging by awards because at first glance, it looked to me like Gerrard had more awards to his name.
It's curious. I would dare to say that if I had not taken as a criterion the votes granted by the ESM, Gerrard would be slightly ahead of Lampard and without a doubt, the latter would not be within the first 23. What I mean is that, although my method is objective in my own opinion (obviously, I would include some players in a different category in which they are subject to the "numbers"), there will never be a definitive agreement, as it will depend on the algorithms performed and the criteria collected. For example, I can't find a way to include data such as the players of the year of the major leagues or the eleven ideals of at least those considered the best leagues in the world. If someone does it, I would appreciate it if you could explain how
The cases of Raúl, Hazard and Kane have to do with the seasons in the elite. Raúl stood out since the mid-90s. I keep checking data; In a few days I hope to have them checked, precisely since these seasons. I anticipate that finally, Raul gets more score than Rooney in his total careers, but if we accumulate scores since the beginning of the 21st century, it is not so, since we are "eliminating" several years in which Raul highlighted. Hazard is still active and, without going any further, at the end of this season, will add arguments to be higher on this list. Kane has been less years than Hazard in the elite; therefore, currently, it does not approach the accumulated merits of Rooney. The case of Pirlo is different from the previous ones. It coincides exactly with Rooney in terms of his seasons in the elite: 12 consecutive, from 2004 to 2015. According to the calculations I have in those seasons, Pirlo appears twice in the top 10 of the year, while Rooney does it in one. However, if we look at the top 30, Pirlo is in 5 seasons and Rooney in 9. Therefore, English offers a little more regularity. I comment some other comparatives: Golden Ball: Pirlo was nominated 4 times; Rooney in 6. The best place of both was 5th place. Fifa World Player: Pirlo was nominated twice (in 2007 he was 7th); Rooney in 5 (in 2009 it was 10th). ESM: Pirlo once in the team of the season, 8 monthly presences and 76 votes in total. Rooney, once on the team of the season, 15 monthly presences and 112 votes. FifPro: Both coincide in a presence in the first team and another 10 in the "shortlist". However, there is a fact that favors Pirlo, as he has a presence in UEFA's eleven; Rooney, none. In The Guardian, between 2012 and 2015 they were 4 times listed; Pirlo's average position was 25 and Rooney's was 40. However, examining the results of the FourFourTwo ranking, Rooney is favored; between 2007 and 2014, they were listed 8 times; Pirlo's middle place was 48th and Rooney's was 18th. I think this data points a slight advantage in favor of Rooney.
Now this is ignoring all those accolades where Pirlo was highlighted among the best players of the tournament (2006, 2012, 2014). Rooney was only once near that territory. Also, someone like Robben has from the age of 26 onward as many 'world class' designations by kicker as KHR in his entire career, and he doesn't compare to Rooney somehow? The press snubbing again obvious. Something that's also for @Perú FC to understand.
Indeed, in the three years you say, Pirlo's score is higher than Rooney's. Those good performances to which you refer would undoubtedly be taken into account when voting for the different surveys. In 2013, Pirlo was also better rated than Rooney.
As for Robben, the accumulated score places him in 25th place, nothing far from Rooney. Correct me if I am wrong, but the feeling is that Robben's best years were 2010, 2013, 2014 and 2015, better in all of them to Rooney, in addition to 2005. However, this statistical analysis indicates that in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012, Rooney gets better grades, at least, I insist, on the criteria I handle.
2017 also I think? Okay, fair enough. Hazard is in accolades three times the best player of a top five league, among the best players in a world cup, more often in pfa team of the year, as many esm team of the year inclusions, and he ranks behind Rooney in accolades?
On the other hand De Gea is overrated as... hell, too. Probably due to all his pfa teams of the year. He has yet to surpass a Canizares wich is not very obvious.
I think that in the context of English football (with many shots attempts) the keepers are heroes or zeroes. It's much about reflexes and handball saves on their line so it's much about handball goalkeeping. That's how Schmeichel is also a bit overrated imo (but he's really good ofc, De Gea... not convinced at all for the moment). I also think that it's in international football that we can see who truly are the great football goalkeepers : when they have to be decisive in like two occasions during a game, when we can see if they're able to handle pressure.
It's about handball keeping because that was what was needed of him. He didn't choose to have to make those saves. They were forced upon him, and he made them. He made saves that most GKs wouldn't be able to do so as consistently. Why is Int'l football the true test of GKs? Is there no pressure in club football?
PuckVanHeel goes more into details here when quoting our last couple of posts in the thread "the greatests players of the last 25 years" so thanks to him maybe it will get clearer : Of course I do not think that a keeper who has few references in club football is automatically better than one who has these references just because he would have had one good intenational tournament but it is what marks the difference between the "good keepers" and the "great keepers". Also, obviously (but I'll specify it, still), in general, the keepers who perform in tournaments are already good in club. Seems logical because they got to be selected in national team to start with. The problem with De Gea is that he has no tournament or any noticeable European football campaign for the moment, as precised by PvH. Then there's the technical aspect of his game (that I thought I emplied enough too) wich doesn't add much "good points" in his favor neither : I won't say that he is an unidimensional player who's just good on his line (when on form, because that's what it implies too when we talk about this type of keepers) but he's not ultra-complete neither for sure and most of all lacks authority in his surface (technically and in his behaviour), another thing that makes the difference to be considered really a great keeper imo. In his defense, he's the Spanish team's keeper post-2012 wich most of all must have been destabilized by this change of national coach in the last minute at the World Cup 2018, but even when trying to find him excuses it doesn't work completely because he was already not that brilliant with Spain prior to this last tournament especially, if not poor, really Not just my appreciation because I did watch a couple of qualifiers and friendlies but he was actually strongly criticized in his country since months and more and more when the fnal tournament was approaching. It doesn't seem that he has the strong mental needed to be considered a great goalkeeper even though, as PvH said, all the keepers have ups and downs. But it's only downs for the moment and big downs like in 2014 and 2018 where he was clearly shambolic. Perhaps he'll evolve on this point around his 30 but it doesn't seem to take this direction so far, as for now.
Casillas was the starting goalkeeper in 2012 and 2014. He was decent in the first (not quite at his best) and sub-standard in the 2nd.
According SCI Skill Index, Neymar in 2011 and 2012 was better than in 2013 and 2014: Before PSG: https://www.scisports.com/neymar-surpasses-messi-as-number-one-on-sciskill-index/ This is no surprise, since former user JamesBH himself pointed out in a post circa 2013 that Neymar was destined to be a big star and then stagnated (which is true in 2013 and 2014, he was even worse than in 2011 years and 2012 ) and by 2010 he was already better than players like Robinho who came from good/ acceptable stints at Real Madrid and Manchester City. JamesBH said back then that one of the reasons would be the training done with the players here and the lack of great competition that is required to the natural evolution, as factors. The other factor would be the subnormal and strenuous Brazilian calendar. The point is that Neymar had a big outbreak for his age between 2009 and 2010 reached a world class level already in 2011 and 2012, down slightly on his form in 2013 and 2014 (still had an average of ~7.90 as a starter on whoscored, ~8.25 with Brazil at Confederation Cup 2013 and WC2014) and then peaked between 2015*, 2016, 2017 and 2018 (which was interrupted by injury). Important to note the Mbappe (which is widely considered TOP 10 these days) has a somewhat smaller SkiScill Index (120.5 vs 125) than Neymar at the same age and the best U21 players of half 2017 were like this: https://www.scisports.com/the-golden-boy-award-2017-shortlist/ GoalImpact (Neymar's redline vs Mbappe's redline) Olympic final, user question: "Is Brandt better than Neymar?". No. Currently not even close. pic.twitter.com/WKyzIfCTU4— Goalimpact (@Goalimpact) August 19, 2016 Kylian Mbappé couldn't play his strengths last night. But the future remains bright. pic.twitter.com/VtrhC08uXG— Goalimpact (@Goalimpact) March 7, 2018 *Goalpoint has Neymar with the highest month peak in 2015 (november) https://goalpoint.pt/pepita-de-ouro-2015_26495/4 10 matches rated in October and November 2015: Whether or not he was TOP10 or TOP25 in the last two and a half seasons in Brazil depends on how you analyze Neymar in the first and the half of the second season at Barcelona, because in Brazil he was likely a better player than in 2013 or 2014. (DBS Calcio rate him as the 2º best rated Barcelona player and as 4º in La Liga 2013/2014). My comparison (styles apart just in terms of impact) is: Neymar at Santos with Maradona at Argentinos Juniors and Boca Juniors, both were considered the best players of their countries at young ages, both dominated their leagues, both had their U20 competitions, Neymar's 2014 World Cup would be comparable to Maradona's 1982 World Cup, the two were about the same age ranked as the 4th best player in the Spanish league in their first season. Also worth mentioning is the fact that Maradona, in my opinion, had as his biggest rivals in football terms, Zico and Platini played in less recognized leagues such as Brazil and France, while Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi played in major leagues, clubs and with a lot more spotlight. Messi is also very likely a more dominant player than Zico or Platini. The difference is that Maradona arrived in his best physical conditions at the WC1986 (unlike Neymar in 2018 that came from serious injury in his feet and visibly was not at his best) and the Argentine was always the referent of his teams. Neymar as a referente at PSG against Liverpool, Napoli, Bayern and even with Real Madrid has gone well. The point is if Maradona was considered one of the best players (the best) in the world in 1979, 1980 and 1981, I see no reason why Neymar could not be considered TOP10 in 2010, 2011 and 2012 either. Now, Maradona aside, I think Neymar was at least (probably superior) Mbappe-level talent, with different qualities though.