I would just like to gauge your opinion on various things, just to see how it compares to the general feeling of English referees. - Who are the top three English referees IYO (in order)? - Who are the bottom three English referees IYO (in order)? - Who are the current top three FIFA officials in Europe? - Which European country (if you get to watch other leagues) has the best quality refereeing? - How does English refereeing compare to your country's standard of refereeing? What are the differences? - What do you like about English refereeing? - What do you dislike about English refereeing? - What is your overall opinion of English refereeing? Remember, Paul Durkin and Jeff Winter are now retired, so you can't include them , Mark Clattenburg is the new boy (at only 29 years old) on the SG list, and PLC has now technically come off the FIFA list so you can't have him either! So get going, and after a while, I'll put what we generally think on here. I'm certain this'll make interesting reading!
I'm going to be terrible at coming up with names, but I can recognize my favorite three whenever they are doing EPL which I get to watch on Fox Sports World (from the Sky feed). Graham Poll is my absolute favorite. He seems to command as much respect as Collina, but he is smiling most of the time. I truly respect someone obviously having that much fun in his chosen profession. The other two names I don't know. One of them I would recognize if you said it, but I'm afraid the other one is just somebody whose face I recognize. Sorry I couldn't do better, and the others are just unremarkable to me. England is one of the two places where I feel that the AR's are truly quality, the U.S. being the other. In both countries, we apparently care about the work we do on the lines.
Not to get techincal (well, sort of) but is this actually true? I know everyone has said that EURO 2004 would be his last major tournament, but he doesn't turn 45 until next year, so he could be reappointed to the FIFA list. And he can't exactly resign his commission mid-year, he does have a FIFA badge for the remainder of 2004, does he not?
As a fan, I would say your CRs are much, much better, and especially more consistent, than ours. MLS ARs are just as good as yours. In particular, I think your CRs are more savvy, harder to fool, on things like diving, dissent, etc. By that I mean, the difference in foul recognition isn't as great as the difference in game management.
I said 'technically' because he doesn't officially come off the list until the end of December, however, UEFA refs in this position tend to get very few games between now and then. Btw, what are 'CR's? And this is the complete list of SG refs for 2004-2005: Neale Barry Steve Bennett (FIFA) Mark Clattenburg (new for 04/05) Mike Dean (FIFA) Phil Dowd Steve Dunn Andy D'Urso (FIFA) Chris Foy Dermot Gallagher Mark Halsey (FIFA) Barry Knight Matt Messias (FIFA) Graham Poll (FIFA) Uriah Rennie (FIFA) Mike Riley (FIFA) Rob Styles (FIFA) Peter Walton Howard Webb Alan Wiley And if you can't put the face to the name, each of their profile with pics are here
The English referees are of a very low standard IMO. I wouldn't like to pick any from your list as none deserve any praise really. Too many of them seem to want to feature on the highlights show in the evening and end up making rash and controversial decsions which more often than not actually end up actually altering the out come of the game. Contrast their performance to that of Italian Piere Luigi Collina. When his name was announced as the referee in front of the England fans (who must be some of the most partizan in the world) the England fans stood and applauded. The level of respect he commands is unheard of in the English domestic game. Too bad he has now retired any there aren't many more like him.
Not a term we really use here either (at least I don't and don't know people who do). It just makes for useful Internet shorthand and is a good contrast to "AR" for fans and others who visit the board.
Collina is not that popular at home - I think the concept is familiarity breeds comtempt. So he isn't well known by UK fans (in terms of day in/day out decisions) so is better liked than those "bastards who stole the game from my team". Generally the English refs get things right - they just ref to England's style. Its not "no blood, no foul" but is much more physical than most of Europe. I don't recall watching many games going to hell in the EPL, which is in the top 3 in the world in terms of talent. Any ref that can handle Keane, Ruud, and various other hotheads in one game without completely losing it has my undivided applause and a fair amount of envy (these are skills I need to pick-up).
Too bad...I liked Durkin. Top 3: Rennie, Wiley, Halsey Bottom 3: I'm a big hater of Graham Poll. After that...probably Steve Dunn, and I don't know about Howard Webb--how'd he make select list? About English refereeing. Everyone says the pace of the PL is so much faster, but I happen to think not. It's just not quite the short passing, defensive counterattack league that Spain or Italy are. The refereeing imho speeds things up by being very frugal with the whistles. Fouls that I would call in the PA, especially by the attackers, go unpunished often in the PL. Whistles at midfield are much more common than in the attacking or defending third, especially compared with the American leagues, MLS or the Clausura, or Brazilian League. I believe that the American leagues do tend to play advantage much more at the midfield, while English referees tend to apply it only in the attacking third, as a rule of thumb. English referees are much more savvy in the main about goalkeeper contact, I think. They offer the keeper no protection whatever, and let anyone vie for the ball. Temperamentally they are much cooler headed than American referees, and certainly more than the Italian refs, though in this area it is the Dutch who excel, I think. Compared to referees at home, I'd have to say MLS assistant referees are the best in the world, easily comparing with the English. I think our referees in the center are a mixed bag, and the English referees are in the main much more consistently excellent. Part of this, I'm sure, has to do with the brutal fixture schedule in England, particularly when international matches figure in. MLS by comparison is a cakewalk. FIFA refs I like I rather few, really. Kim Milton Nielsen, Dr. Markus Merk (my favorite ref), and Anders Frisk top the list. After that...too few FIFA games in this hemisphere (that I can watch) make me silent on this issue. Each country has its style of footy, and therefore each has its style of refereeing. I don't necessarily prefer any of them over the other. Myself I prefer a short passing game to the English long-ball (say, Blackburn Rovers), and I'm therefore more partial to American football. I also like to see dribbling, and this is highly discouraged in England, from the looks of it. (I'm not the only person who thinks this, surely.) In a game of short passes, there are more challenges for the ball in close ranks, and therefore more fouls. It is this, not the "permissiveness" of English referees, that distinguishes, say, the Serie A from the FAPL. I'd like to see better refereeing from the center in US soccer. Less tolerance for off-the-ball fouls and simulation would be nice. But we are new to this. Remember, in 1971, there were only 1,035 referees in the entire country, and in 1966, only 250. In forty years we've come a long way, but not long enough yet.
I'll come back to the top 3/bottom 3 when we get a few more opinions, but your question about Howard Webb I will answer. He is in his second season in the Select Group, and at only 30 years old, he is tipped to be our next big thing. He hasn't had a live PL game here, so I haven't seen him do a full 90 minutes, but all the reports are positive. However, he did give a very, very dodgy penalty against Villa (i think it was). He looks very cool and very calm, which will help him. But then he is a copper! With regards to the English football style, the 'long ball' game is a rapidly dying game in England. As is counter attacking football. You may have noticed Liverpool adopting this style, and provided a very boring, slow game, that was extremely unpopular with the Scouse fans, and was one of the main reasons for Houllier's departure, so negative tactics aren't very popular here. Nowadays, the Premiership is very attacking. Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelski, and Newcastle are obviously the main users of this, but fans and clubs much prefer to follow the old saying that "the best form of defence is attack". You'll find that the lower down teams, who have less skill and quality, will opt for the long ball up to their big attackers, a la Bolton and Everton. Italy on the other hand, is much much more defensive minded, opting for counter attacks and tactical play, and hence games tend to be much slower and more boring. However, it has resulted in the production of great defences! So IMO, the PL is the fastest in Europe, definitely nowadays anyway. However, I have seen some excellent La Liga games! Wrt English refereeing, I would pretty much agree with you. We do tend to favour defenders in 50/50 situations, and offences that we blow for in the defending third, tend not to be given in the opposite penalty area. Wrt advantage, I would say we do use it a lot in the middle of the park and the attacking third, but that is purely to keep the game flowing and so that we don't deny an attacking team a good attack. However, what I have seen creep out of our game, that I've noticed you do in the MLS, is to play advantage and then come back and caution when play next stops. RE: Goalkeepers, like I said earlier, English fans believe, correctly, that football is a contact sport. This is why diving is hated, and why referees who give 'minor' fouls such as very slight pulls, nudges, etc, are criticised for taking the contact out of the game. One of the biggest criticisms in the English press and among fans is that the Premier League is becoming a non-contact sport. So when it comes to goalkeepers, our referees would get absolutely slated if they gave free kicks like European refs do for challenging a goalkeeper. We also believe that there is no where in the LOAF that says the GK should get any different form of protection to any other outfield player, and so GKs are treated as any other player, and so you don't see as mnay FKs in favour of GKs as you do elsewhere in Europe. Wrt assistants, we believe we have the best assistants in the world , because we use the correct signals. Now I have to admit that this view is based mainly on comparisons with Europe and the odd tournament we see from other areas of the world, but you'll notice that English assistants keep the flag pitchside and unfurled at all times, we signal offside and hold the position until the ball is correctly positioned, we signal for throws with the correct arm, rather than just with the hand the flag's currently in then swapping over, and we wave the flag for fouls rather than just stick it up, and we then signal with the correct arm. These are just some of the reasons why we believe we are the best, and we believe Phil Sharp is the best example of assistant refereeing you'll ever see (he'll be at the Olympics so keep an eye out!). However, as I say, I haven't seen enough American assisting to form an adequate opinion on your assistants, but what I have seen I've been very impressed! Hope thats some insight into our opinion. I don't mean to sound arrogant btw! You never expected me to say we have rubbish referees did you! :-D But if you want a hint as to the England's opinion on the best ref, here it is: Don't mention the name Uriah Rennie too loudly ;-)
Question: When did the habbit of ARs holding the flag perpendicular to their bodies start to appear in England? I have seen it several times now and current FIFA requirements are that the AR holds the flag parallel to his/her leg unless signalling.
It's hard to understand what you mean through words, but what English assistants tend to do it stand parrallel to the touchline, i.e. their body facing across the pitch, when play is with them, using side steps to hold position. At the same time, the flag is in front of them, pointing down to the pitch, rather than at their side, as done in the rest of Europe. When play isn't with them, we will turn to right angles with the touchline, i.e. our body looks along the touchline, and have the flag at our pitchside side. Then if we need to run, we swap the flag to the other hand to keep it pitchside. I think this is what you mean? The trend across Europe is to keep the flag to the assistants side, normally 'folded up' (hard to put into words!) and is then unfurled when signalling. And they also tend to run with the flag on their non-pitchside side. It's as if they can only hold the flag with one hand! The general reason for this is to keep the flag visible at to the referee at all times. If you are standing parrallel to the touchline, it is better to have the flag in front of you, as the yellow or yellow/red flag will be easier to spot against the black kit than against the multi-coloured crowd. Likewise when you turn your body, instead of keeping it in front of you, you keep it by your side, so you keep the flag against the black background. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any direction in the LOAF to say how the assistant should hold his flag when not signalling, and so this advice is given by the FA, and is used virtually nation-wide. One exception to the rule that you'll see is Glenn Turner who makes a point of holding the flag out in front of him at all times. I guess it's just a matter of taste and comfort, but it does make sense and gives a more professional and smart look than the lazier European style.
We are taught to have the flag parallel to the leg facing the CR. The flag is not curled up. We are taught never to have the flag pointed onto onto the pitch as the English ARs appear to be doing. For offsides the flag is always in your right hand and for fouls you raise the flag with the hand that will indicate the direction so for an attacking free kick (assuming a standard CR diagonal) you would raise the flag with your right hand. You never move the flag across yourself. Interesting how different countries have slighty different mechanics.
Very true. Another different mechanic that I believe only England use, at least I've only seen English refs use, is the right back/left wings diagonal. I know that FIFA tell all their referees to use the traditional left backs diagonal for ease when on FIFA duty with an assistant who doesn't speak your language, but the RB system is a rapidly increasing approach in England. Neale Barry and Chris Foy use it - they are SG refs. About 10-15 of the NL refs also use it. I also use it. Of course using this system means assistants should flag for offsides with their left hand. I definitely agree about assistants who move the flag across their body when signalling for throws and fouls, it just looks sloppy and lazy. Is it that hard to quickly change hands?!?!?! German assistants are particularly bad at this. Assistant refereeing is something that really gets my goat. I cannot stand assistants who can't be bothered to swap the flag from hand to hand, so always have the flag on the non-pitchside side, it is just plain laziness. I also don't like assistants who curl up the flag when not signalling, and also those who don't wave the flag for fouls - just putting it up makes it look like their signalling offside! As you say, different appraoches for different countries, but the rest of Europe just isn't of the same standard as England.
We call that a "reverse diagonal". I have used it when the bright sun makes it impossible to look up and see anything when running the diagonal. We have a referee who has just arrived in the country from London and all he runs is reverse diagonals. As an AR it is not a problem to run either diagonal but some new ARs can have some fun with it. Your assessors should be penalising ARs who do this. In NZ if you roll up your flag you are signalling to the CR that you are not ready. If the CR is close I will just raise the flag for a foul and through eye contact and some discreet signals indicate what happened. However, if the CR is well behind play then I will wave the flag for fouls.
I know, but this must be how they are taught in Germany. However, I have seen it creep into the Spanish game - a few in La Liga do it. Tbh, I'm not sure about how the assessing system works in UEFA. I know the referee has an assessor from a different country to both teams and that of the officials, but I'm not sure about the assistants.
Aside from the appearance of sloppiness, carelessness in using the correct hand really can be a practical problem for the referee. If my AR reaches across his body with his right hand to signal possession going to the left, it can sometimes be difficult to read the flag direction, depending upon my position. Total consistency (correct hand, flag stick exactly straight with the arm, body squarely facing the field) makes it impossible for the CR to mis-read the direction being signalled. Using Fox Sports World and Univision as my two sole sources for judging referees and AR's around the world, I tend to agree with my colleagues here. U.S., Dutch, and English crews at the highest levels bother to get the mechanics right (EPL, Eredivisie (?), and MLS on the telly), while it varies considerably in Germany, Italy, France, Mexico, Central America, northern South America, and Spain. I seem to recall being impressed with Brazilian and most Argentine ref teams, as well. As to the differences in tolerance for fouling, that is a legitimate variation from culture to culture and makes the first 10 minutes of a quality international match interesting.
For what it's worth, this is the general opinion of English referees, going by opinions on refereeing websites, society meetings, etc: Top 3: Mark Halsey Steve Bennett Neale Barry Those are the general 3, in various orders (I would subsitute Bennett for Poll). But we believe Graham Poll had a very good season last year, far better than the previous one, and Matt Messias is also a popular referee. Bottom 3: Uriah Rennie Andy D'Urso Barry Knight I don't see the problems with Uri or Knight tbh, I've always been a fan of Uri, he is the fittest in the SG, and is extremely calm under pressure. He is also a good man-manager, especially since his demotion. But he did appear to 'bottle' some big decisions last season, most noticably in the Newc vs Man U game. D'Urso is very unpopular mainly due to the fact that he has poor man-management skills, he always resorts to carding to keep control, and just has no respect from the players. His handling of the Chelski vs Arsenal game 3 seasons ago earnt him big big criticism from fans, media and refs. Barry Knight I've never really minded. I saw him at Highbury in the CC and he was fine. But he is injury prone, and is very inconsistent. Rob Styles is another that is pretty unpopular due to his love of flashing the cards. As for UEFA officials, now that PLC has (virtually) retired, the three we believe are the best are Markus Merk (Euro 2004 final ref), Anders Frisk (over-demonstrative, scruffy, porn star lookalike ) and probably then Manuel Mejuto Gonzalez, who had an excellent Euro 2004 to cap an excellent performance in the potentially explosive Chelski vs Arsenal UCL match. Gilles Veissiere and Lubos Michel are also pretty popular. As you would expect, Urs Meier is probably about as popular in England as Osama Bin Laden. I think I've answered the others questions throughout this thread, but those are the general opinion of English referees. It's interesting to note that you like Graham Poll and Uriah Rennie though! For what its worth, the RateTheRef stats for 2003/2004 were as follows: Name ---------Fixtures -- Comm -- Cons -- Cont -- Fair -- Fit -- Flow -- Pos -- Total Gallagher, D -----32------ 3.85 ---- 3.56 -- 3.78 -- 3.74 - 4.03 -3.82 --3.76 - 26.54 Halsey, Mark ---- 33 ----- 3.86 ---- 3.37 -- 3.77 -- 3.60 - 4.13 -3.77 --3.51 - 26.01 Barber, Graham - 28 ------ 3.66 ---- 3.21 -- 3.79 - 3.51 - 3.94 -3.58 --3.52 - 25.21 Winter, Jeff ----- 30 ----- 3.80 ---- 3.25 -- 3.64 -- 3.40 - 3.42 -3.63 --3.50 - 24.64 Poll, Graham ---- 32 ------ 3.66 ---- 3.23 -- 3.73 -- 3.38 - 3.83 -3.34 --3.38 - 24.55 Durkin, Paul ----- 36 ----- 3.68 ----- 3.37 -- 3.69 -- 3.41 - 3.35 -3.55 --3.35 - 24.40 Bennett, Steve -- 27 ----- 3.38 ---- 3.00 -- 3.47 -- 3.10 - 3.90 -3.28 --3.33 - 23.46 Walton, Peter --- 22 ------ 3.38 ---- 3.11 -- 3.38 -- 3.27 - 3.61 -3.40 -- 3.17 - 23.32 Messias, Matt --- 26 ----- 3.22 ----- 3.15 -- 3.27 -- 3.30 - 3.88 -3.21 --3.29 - 23.32 Knight, Barry ---- 27 ----- 3.22 ----- 3.00 -- 3.32 -- 3.38 - 3.72 -3.18 --3.41 - 23.23 Dean, Mike ----- 31 ----- 3.17 ----- 2.83 -- 3.39 -- 3.14 - 3.67 -3.30 --3.34 - 22.84 Webb, Howard --- 28 ----- 3.24 ----- 2.93 -- 3.24 -- 3.06 - 3.56 -3.14 --3.17 - 22.34 Barry, Neale ----- 31 ----- 3.10 ----- 2.76 -- 3.26 -- 3.02 - 3.48 -3.10 --3.13 - 21.85 Styles, Rob ------ 30 ----- 3.02 ----- 2.71 -- 3.22 -- 2.89 - 3.59 -3.07 --3.14 - 21.64 Wiley, Alan ------ 25 ----- 3.14 ----- 2.86 -- 3.13 -- 2.95 - 3.28 -3.13 --2.98 - 21.47 Dowd, Phil ------- 26 ----- 2.95 ----- 2.74 -- 3.14 -- 3.08 - 3.47 -2.89 --3.19 - 21.46 Riley, Mike ------- 33 ----- 2.98 ----- 2.71 -- 3.20 -- 2.86 - 3.62 -2.88 --3.10 - 21.35 Dunn, Steve ----- 27 ----- 3.00 ----- 2.75 -- 3.26 -- 2.97 - 2.79 -3.19 --2.96 - 20.92 D’urso, Andy ----- 25 ----- 2.84 ----- 2.61 -- 3.13 -- 2.97 - 3.64 -2.80 --2.84 - 20.83 Foy, Chris -------- 21 ----- 2.88 ----- 2.58 -- 3.18 -- 2.88 - 3.33 -2.83 --2.99 - 20.67 Rennie, Uriah ---- 22 ----- 2.58 ----- 2.40 -- 2.97 -- 2.62 - 3.49 -2.60 --2.65 - 19.31 Ratings are out of 5 for each area and therefore 35 overall. They are taken for all games these guys did, be they PL, FL, FAC, CC. And the ratings are by both fans and referees. Some interesting reading definitely!
For me Durkin, and Winter stand or stood out. I was not a big Graham Poll fan. Mark Halsey spends too much time speaking to players. Rennie had a number of matches in previous seasons that spun completely out of control. Sometimes there is no need for discussion the offense merits a card and get to the matter of the restart of play. Another recently retired referee that I admired was David Elleray.
Englishref: First of all, I enjoy reading your posts. Secondly, how does the decision of demoting a ref take place? I partially agree about your opinion on Uriah Rennie. Good player management skills. However, he is horribly out of place to make some calls. I recall when he called a penalty in favour of Villa at Villa Park. Vassell got the call i think. anyways, he called the penalty from just about the centre-line. My top 3: Jeff Winter(i dont if he's still around) Mike Riley Graham Poll Bottom 3: Rob Styles(he's the worst in the premiership; cocky, arrogant, card-happy; when will he ever be demoted?) Andy D'Urso Uriah Rennie
Thanks The decision to demote is only done when absolutely necessary, and has only happened a few times. Uriah Rennie is the sort of success story of demotions if you like. He came up to the PL and was even more card happy than Rob Styles and all of Spain's refs put together! I can't remember exactly how many but he had about 15 RCs in one season, a ridiculous amount. So he was demoted the following season (yet still remained on the FIFA list), but re-promoted the season after that. Since then, he has been a much better referee. He uses a lot more common sense and is a more economical with his cards. This is one of the greatest things I like about Uri, is his guts to come back. I don't know that if I was a PL referee, and then I was publicly demoted with fans laughing at you, that I would be able to come back as strongly as Uri has. My only disappointment is that he didn't get more FIFA games. I'm certain he'd have been one of, if not THE, first black UEFA referee to referee a UCL game. I actually quite like Uri, but a lot of people don't. Another reason for demotions is for economical reasons. For example, a guy called Andy Hall was promoted to the SG for the 02/03 season, but NEVER got ONE game in the PL. Instead he only got the pick of the FL games and many FO appts. The following season, the list was cut from 24 to 21 iirc, and Andy was demoted (with Peter Walton and Howard Webb promoted). But nowadays, several factors come into it. The LMA, FA, and PL/FL now have match delegates at every PL match, whose duty it is to make a report and mark a referee (remember these people are not and never were refs) based on his performance and the opinion of both managers. These marks, as well as those from the referee's assessor, are used to decide what games each referee gets (i.e. a live Sky game, as compared to a 3rd division game) and ultimately, whether they are retained at the end of the season. Last season, the National List demoted both Frazer Stretton and Mark Cooper (a.k.a PLC II), believed to be due to low marks. Cooper is now on the NL of assistant referees, while Stretton is a Panel league ref. Wendy Toms was demoted based on her failure to pass the madatory fitness test to stay on the NL of assts. And re: Jeff, yes, he is no longer on the list as he has reached the retirement age. However, you may spot him at a comedy club! :-O
I personally think that the standard of English EPL referees has got worse, and is still dropping. I was at the Sweden v. Bulgaria game in Portugal controlled by Mike Riley and I thought he had a dreadful game. And he is the best we have to offer? I know that he is Scottish but I was surprised that Hugh Dallas didn't get an invitation. Considered to be the U.K.'s best referee. In Italy they think it is Graham Poll over Collina, (who was suspended 3 times by the Italian F.A. last season). The rest of the world think otherwise. Personally I dont' think anyone from the EPL would make the top ten in Europe. I hope it gets better this season, but I won't hold my breath!