Younger Yanks will choose playing abroad

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by banbaseball, Jul 6, 2006.

  1. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    exactly my meaninf
     
  2. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think most younger yanks would choose :


    [​IMG]



    But that's just me.
     
  3. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    well. That's what choosy Mom's choose
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    he might be in the EPL or Serie A but in MLS, mid-level talent are guys 5 though 10 --- Pete Vagenas is a mid-level talent (behind Donovan, Gomes, Ihemelu, Marshall, Albright, Kirk, Glen, Hartman, Cronin, Sturgis) and guys like him are vital to the league where a bulk of players are basically one-step away from being in the USL.

    Ramiro Corrales, Brian West, Danny Califf, Nat Borchers were basically on the same level as Pete is and, if MLS begins losing them because it's unwilling to cough up $150K in salary, it'll be poorer in return.
     
  5. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Uh, Mr. Wilt, your standards are, uh, wilting. Is a mid-level player "not an all star" or a super-sub/rotation player? (although the 14th best player on a roster is not always a non-starter, either, so it gets pretty tricky.) "28 man rosters?" come on.

    But sure, if what you are (now) arguing is that MLS non-starters are not a hot commodity in Europe, that is certainly true. But there are still guys that go to Europe - Tighe Dombrowski, Aidan Brown, Nate Borchers (who has a lot of upside and was a solid starter when he left so probably was not #14 on the crapids.), Countess is trying to right now.

    It is simply not true there are not "any" mid-level players that go, no matter how low your definition goes.

    And this doesn't even touch the guys that MLS tried to sign, but who jumped ship without stopping in MLS.

    And to be clear, I don't see this as some slag on MLS. It is only right. There are simply not enough spots for everyone and I, for one, don't want every US player in the same pool. Diversity: good for education, investments and player pool development.

    Your Ryan Coiners, Yi's and Coopers will come home, your Gibbs, Gooches and Califfs (if there was every a poster boy for midlevel player it is Danny Califf - lots of heart, good at what he does, but limited in so many ways he made Albright look Cafu-esque.) will head out.

    And it will be good.
     
  6. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Yeah, the change from "all star" to 14th best was a face-saving dodge.
     
  7. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I'm not so sure. Is anyone really crushed that Brian West is gone? I didn't mind him, but if you could bring in 3 potential Ruiz' or even give 4 Max Cream's a shot, I don't really mind.

    Borchers should have been kept, or at least not gone on a free, that was bungled. Califf is a great "personality" and his loss is felt from an entertainment POV - and rock hard defenders are always good for a league - but for me (a 96 - 05 season ticket holder - I had to protest Sampson somehow) I'd rather see the league have a few great players and try to find the greatest untested talent across North America - then sell them on to Europe or MFL or wherever.

    But I know I'm in the minority on this. And finding that talent requires a thriving reserve league to test guys out.
     
  8. Mistake

    Mistake New Member

    Jun 13, 2006

    Absolutely no evidence of this, just more random speculation that you have no facts about.

    The gap between a non-competitive match and a first team match is very wide, even when the non-competitive/reserve match has the better players.

    First team play, where the results mean something, is almost always better, unless the players are completely inferior, and there's nothing to support that at all. Just your own speculation trying to prop up your argument.


    I've seen Joe Enochs live in several matches. He'd be coming off the bench in the MLS. I can't think of one team who he could start for, he's not a good player, but gets time in Regionalliga. MLS shouldn't be wasting $150k-$200k to keep guys like him here. If these mediocre players want to make more coin in Europe, let them. MLS shouldn't be overpaying unproven/unknown-potential players just to keep our reserve teams filled out.

    How about McKinley Tennyson? He was going to be a 1st round pick in 2001, but slipped to 4th because he declared his intentions of going overseas. You think MLS should of paid him big bucks to keep him here? I remember all the fire on these forums when MLS dish out the bones to keep him. He turned out to be a failure and is now floating around the A-League.
     
  9. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Following up on what someone said earlier. Given a choice between 300-500K in Europe and 100K in the US, young players are going to take Europe. If there are more young players going to Europe maybe that means that we are producing more players worth 500K.

    I'm not sure we are losing players for the other reasons. Do we know anyone who has gone to Europe when they had a financially similar offer from MLS?
     
  10. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Interestingly, I both agree with this and with Peter Wilt. This is a reasonable definition of mid-level talent (which technically does not make Vagenas mid-level talent as he comes in at #11 :) ) It is important that we keep this level of talent, but it also not worth paying a lot for. Fortunately, mostly we don't have to.

    Vagenas shopped himself around Europe and didn't get any good offers so re-signed with the Galaxy for around 100K. Todd Dunivant seemed to me a reasonable candidate for Europe but also chose to re-sign with MLS for less than 100K. Marshall has stayed with MLS for around 100K, Hartman for around 150K. 100K seems to be a reasonable price point. Something MLS is willing to pay, but also enough to keep people here.

    But I also agree with Peter Wilt. These guys are not worth paying 250-300K, which is probably what Danny Califf gets in Europe. He is not a "star" attraction and can be replaced (Ugo Ihemelu).

    There will always be a few senior players who want to try Europe and can make substantially more there, but so far it does not seem like a lot. I would really rather spend the money at the lower end of the leagues, so that once you have graduated from the dev roster you can be guaranteed a reasonable wage as long as you are in MLS.
     
  11. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    You really believe that MLS reserves is as good or better than Hamburg, Heerenveen or PSV reserve play.

    I think you're wrong about Joe Enoch's, by the way, but he is nothing special, even if he did start. A Pete Vagenas level player, but more pure defensive mid.

    But someone like Joe Enochs is exactly who we are talking about, assuming he can't get on the field for MLS then he is Mr. Wilt's #14 or beyond. And he is making good coin in Germany, playing regularly etc. etc.

    There are now too many interesting American players for MLS to absorb them all and give them meaningful playing time and roles. And it will only get worse. Players will have to go to other leagues, or they will sit. That's just how it be.

    I mean, where would you put Karby, Russell, Spector, Simek, Whitbred, DeMerit, Kazlauski, Bradley, Feilhaber, Lee, DMB, McBride, West, Boca, Gooch, Pearce, Borchers etc. etc. etc. if they all came back to MLS?
     
  12. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    You could but Brian was more or less a proven commodity and the fast is/was that when RSL and ChivasUSA began to operate, Brian West for $150K would have been a zillion times better than Chris Brown, Thiago Martins or Jamie Watson for $50K each.

    Borchers was sold. Califf was a free transfer.

    Not that it matters on the grand scheme of things.

    But there are a lot of crappier defenders in the league than Danny Califf (Red Bulls, Revs, RSL, Columbus, Chivas, Colorado would have all benefited from having him, albeit to a different extent) and he may have signed for around $200K.

    And, in my opinion, Danny is a "bird in hand" type of a player, a known commodity who's worth the investment which is otherwise frittered by spending $40K here and $60K there on the various riff-raff that's cluttering the MLS rosters.
     
  13. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    Maybe the problem is you don't understand the premise.
     
  14. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    I look at it this way.

    The sooner the players like Ramiro Corrales become mere bench players the better the product on the field will be for this league.

    Players like Corrales are boring and don't bring anyone to the stadium but they are solid professionals. We need more solid professionals pushing the solid professionals above them in the pecking order. At that point we can get the competition for places that will create the sense of urgency on the field that will (hopefully) transform the product.

    Secondly when you put bigger financial rewards in front of players it will spark them to do the work (away from the club) that will result in the kind of improvement we want from our home grown talent.

    Developmental players shouldn't be spending the offseason holding down jobs they should be spending that time honing their craft (and some of these guys could really use the honing).
     
  15. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    The guy is comparing Ducth and Bundesliga reserve squads to MLS reserve squads not MLS first team games.

    You have spent the entire thread ignoring what people actually write and instead responding to what strawmen you create in an attempt to discredit the ideas being put forth.

    Its annoying please stop.
     
  16. Rommul

    Rommul Member

    Aug 26, 2003
    NYC
    He is claiming that you said the reserves in Holland and Germany is better that competitive first team MLS matches.
     
  17. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    I wouldn't think so, but I remember that Donovan wasn't the least bit impressed with reserve-team play in Germany.

    Something I'll just toss out as a general reminder -- in the bad old days, we used to think every U.S. player drawing a paycheck in Europe MUST be better than the people we had in MLS. We've seen ample proof that this simply isn't true.
     
  18. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Thanks Rommul for making what I was saying clear. And I'm certainly not saying anyone should go to a German Amature side over MLS just for the play. But if you are training with BL or Hamburg (and kicking it with top players) and have to play reserve ball most of the time, but get the odd first team game or you can come to LA and get on the bench now and again, it's hard to argue for MLS.

    And while LD might not be impressed with Bund reserve teams, how do you think he feels about MLS reserves?

    And I do think the league is worse from an entertainment standpoint without Borchers and Califf and West is a wash from my perspective. Finding new talent for cheap is always a crap shoot, especially without a reserve system to test them out.
     
  19. dabes2

    dabes2 Member

    Jun 1, 2003
    Chicago
    I don't understand the difficulty. These guys get roster spots and crappy existing players got to Aleague or sell insurance.
     
  20. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    But then where do the next generation of guys go?

    I'm hoping that we put out a dozen really solid top pro prospects every year, if not more. They can't all find a home in MLS, or you will end up sending some of these guys just named to the A league.

    Which is fine, but at the end of the day someone has to go to Europe or other off shore leagues, which is the premise of the thread.

    Or MLS has to expand to a 28 team league.
     
  21. SavannahFan

    SavannahFan New Member

    Nov 8, 2005
    RFK Section 135
    Club:
    DC United
    I think there is another possibility that many on here have failed to consider.

    It might turn out in the future that a gifted player could sign with an international side, and still remain in the states (for the majority of his development) to play in the MLS.

    IMHO the strong possibility of closer cooperation, and/or part/full ownership of multiple MLS and USL clubs by international clubs is a real possibility in the future. Player trades, loans, and and a outright "farm" system that developed both US talent and extended the marketing/merchandising of the parent club into the US domestic market is a real possibility.

    Chivas USA is still an experiment, but one that I think many international clubs are watching closely.

    I would be surprised if thus does not develop into a real trend.
     
  22. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    It bears mentioning that MLS reserve teams and Bundesliga reserve teams are very different things. MLS reserves are mostly immediate contenders for first-team minutes, and there is frequent overlap between reserves and starters. By contrast, I looked through the 20 players who made the most appearances for Hamburg reserves last season, and from what I saw, none of them made a single start for the first team all year. Unlike MLS, there's a significant gulf between Bundesliga reserves and starters, which is why a player like Lukas Podolski bypassed reserve soccer altogether. (Ok, he made 2 reserve appearances, but you get the point.)

    This isn't meant to deny MLS reserve teams' problems, which I think you've pointed out already -- rosters are incredibly shallow, and the schedule very brief. All the same, MLS reserve soccer tends to be much closer to MLS soccer than Bundesliga reserve soccer is to the actual Bundesliga.
     
  23. GalacticoX4

    GalacticoX4 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    so far i can't think of a single world class game changing player ever developed largely by the MLS. I mean a Rooney, Gerrard, Deco, That caliber of player. Blockbuster transfer fee, They I kind that every major club is going after and at that time that player is an established world class player. I'm not talking a Freddy Adu who, though improving, can't even make the senior side yet. Until it produces even one player of that caliber I find it hard to say MLS can fully develop the caliber of players the US needs. It's a good start and I think that is it's roll until it can bring in the money to attract better players. I find it hard to say it can develop the best in the world when it hasn't yet.
     
  24. Mistake

    Mistake New Member

    Jun 13, 2006


    Maybe you should read what I wrote and take it at face instead of trying to assume that I meant something else. THAT is what's annoying.

    I'll repeat it since you had a very difficult time understanding it the first time I wrote it. There is NO evidence that DUTCH RESERVES or German 3rd and 4th divisions are better than MLS RESERVES.

    The entire argument is complete speculation without any facts to back it up.
     
  25. Mistake

    Mistake New Member

    Jun 13, 2006

    You don't know!! I've seen German reserve matches first hand and they are NOWHERE even close to MLS first-team quality matches. I haven't seen MLS reserve matches, so I simply can't compare them. German reserve matches are played half assed by most of the players.. some of them have older guys who are just there to be a body on the field and they collect a small paycheck for it.

    If MLS has young, hungry players in their reserve teams, I can promise you, they certaintly could be of higher quality.

    And Joe Enoch's WOULD NOT hold down a starting spot in MLS. He would totally out of place IMO. Osnabruck would have no prayer of reaching the MLS playoffs if they were in the league. They are a very sound step below in quality. I would wager them to finish deadlast if they were in MLS. This is from someone who has seen Osnabruck play about half a dozen times in 2004-05 season and I've been watching MLS since the inception.
     

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