Yanks abroad 2023-2024 thread

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Jun 3, 2023.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    He was killing it with América when he repeatedly sucked for us. He was benched on a B team Gold Cup squad that went out in the semis. Why would his play with América be viewed as any kind of indicator of success with the US?

    There is zero chance I'd bring him in for a competitive camp, period, and he'd still have to show me more than scoring with a stacked América squad to get any kind of call.

    What has changed about his game? Has he gotten quicker? Stronger? Better in some way? The dude has gotten 450 minutes and played with the A and B team and he's only looked passable against Grenada and St. Kitts.

    We have so much evidence that some players' games don't translate -- and Zendejas' size and physical tools are common traits that often struggle in the international game -- and yet, still, a guy scores a goal for an utterly stacked team and he must be better!
     
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  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    ..........................because we should always be open to giving players a second chance if their club play warrants it.

    As you said, he's played less than 500 minutes with the national team.
    And none of those minutes were under Berhalter, but with interim coaches.

    Malik Tillman hasn't lit the world on fire yet for the national team. Are we giving up on him? No. Of course not.

    If we have an injury to somebody like Brenden Aaronson prior to the Copa, I could easily see Zendejas as the choice to replace him as a bench option. [As noted.......................due to other guys being with the Olympic squad instead.]
     
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  3. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    But what about his club play warrants it? What about his play has changed or improved since his prior play? Or are we simply holding América on such a pedestal that the reality that he's not suited/good enough for international play simply can't be?

    For one, Tillman has shown much more for the US than Zendejas, who has been objectively bad. Can't defend, can't keep the ball, can't create.

    Tillman's had some bad games, but also some solid ones. More importantly, he's shown flashes against teams that aren't Grenada and St. Kitts that make you think he can get there. He has the physical tools; he has the skillset. He's also 21/22.

    Zendejas is 25, has some skills, but physically seems overmatched in the international game, and with club, seems to get a ton of his goals on completely undefended shots on breaks generated by América being América.

    He was ineffective against LBs from Trinidad and everyone except St. Kitts ... I struggle to see the value against anyone we care about beating.

    Now, if someone wants to tell me how he's gotten better, I'm all ears. His stats are better this year, but is his game?

    The staff seems to like him. He's actually made two Berhalter camps -- just never actually played, which also tells you something.

    But there's sooo many other guys I'd rather see.
     
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  4. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I watched some of the Jamaica game again. It was disheartening to see Gregg's lineup doing nothing in a semi final of NL. Things picked up when Reyna came on at the half but Tilman stayed on as did Musah. Things picked up some more when Pepi and Haji came on at 63' and Musah went off (Weah went off with him). I dare anybody to point out anything at all that Tilman did over 73'. Musah basically just waits for the ball to fall at his feet then pass it on to the nearest teammate who is open.Things picked up some more when Brenden finally came on around 73' for Tilman. The commentary on air was something like 'I wonder what took Gregg so long.....".

    Great players dont always make for great play. Some of our players think all they have to do is show up and wait for great fortune to fall in their lap.
     
  5. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    And most of those minutes were in CM, not where he is excelling w club
     
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  6. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Flo starts against Lille in another crucial champions league tussle fir Monaco

    trusty usual starting spot for Sheffield United against Man U
     
  7. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    He looked good in the prior matches.

    That Gold Cup team was the worst-coached US team I have ever seen at any level.
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    He didn't. He looked good against Grenada and St. Kitts. I thought he was poor even when with B teams -- the narrative then was "just get him with the A team."

    It wouldn't shock me if he got another look -- I can see the skill. I just don't think it translates well because he's so easily bullied physically and so much of his game requires wide open space. He gets that a lot with América.
     
  9. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I disagree. He was dynamic and fit in well with Pulisic and the group.

    However, the Gold Cup team was coached terribly and looked like they couldn’t wait to get back to their clubs. It was a wasted tourney.
     
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  10. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    All from the first half:

    Malik won the ball in midfield and played it up to Balo (creating a 3v3 with only one defender behind the ball) who squared to Pulisic for a shot in the box in transition.

    Malik played a smart layoff inside from outside the corner of the box that led to a good shooting chance for Balo.

    Malik played Scally into wide open space on the wing on the turn in midfield. Balo then got a head to the resulting cross.

    With our shape pushed up Malik rotated into the RB space and played a 50 yard ball over a closing defender’s pressure essentially in stride to a streaking Pulisic at the edge of the box that CP failed to control.

    Malik also had a chance to square inside from the left to Balo in a pocket in the box but instead went 1v1 down the outside and lost out AND got onto the end of our second best chance by ghosting in from the left for a cutback from Weah and unlike at the club level, where he had scored a similar goal, he skewed his finish tamely at a defender instead of opening up his right and hooking it into the open right side of the goal.
     
  11. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    I thought he was fine prior to the GC but at the actual tournament it looked like he was trying to be the man and do too much and that’s just not his game.

    His game is a complimentary piece but he’s not a high quality role player and doesn’t have any obvious strengths that will translate to the highest level. So for me he’s not in contention for the 23 or the 26 unless there are a bunch of injuries.
     
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  12. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Trusty and Sheffield lost 4-2 to Man U

    Balogun and Monaco took a valuable 3 points over Lille in a champions league 6 pointer. Big wins against Brest and Lille are a big statement for them to consolidate champions league ball next season. Unfortunately, Balogun remains ice cold in terms of finding the net.

    Atalanta won Copa Italia semis against Fiorentina 4-1. Weston and Weah will play Atalanta for the Copa Italia final and a shot at silverware. That will be a tough one for sure.

    Everton took a very surprising 3 points off Liverpool today, effectively making their survival magic number 4 point (but looking at schedules, Id say even 1 more point gets the job done realistically). They play Brentford at home which will IMO seal the deal. Everton survive the points deduction assault. They'll be very happy with that and can consolidate next season.

    How does everton relate to YA? Nottingham Forest. This is basically a 3 horse race between Nottingham Forest, Luton, and Burnley for survival. Id say Burnley are a longshot to claw out (-3.5 points given goal dif). This is between Forest and Luton (-2.5 points goal dif) realistically. Forest REALLY need to take care of business against Sheffield United and not get run up against Man City to keep that .5 on the goal dif). Forest look good to secure 17th, but its by no means a sure thing. They will also be very happy to get out of it after getting their FFP penalty. That wouldnt be hanging over their head next season and Nuno can go get his guys (preferably at central defense) this offseason. We all know they will be Portuguese. The ONLY reason Forest are still in this is because the 3 promoted sides were surprisingly weak. They WILL not get away with that next season with the likes of Leicester, Leeds, or Ipswich going up IMO. They'll be in great position to consolidate so long as they recognize their center backs are a problem and need to be upgraded. midfield and forwards are EPL quality. But much like Leeds, the defense is not.
     
  13. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6663 iad_22201, Apr 24, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2024
    The only problem with Forest's defense this season has been goalkeeping. The rest of their defense has been more than adequate (re CBs, Murillo has been a wonderful signing who is supposedly garnering interest from CL level clubs). Sixth in the PL in xGA (by that I mean 14 clubs have a higher xGA), ninth in shots on target against, fourth in PSxG...however their PSxG-GA is an abysmal -16.7, by FAR the worst in the Premier League (the next closest is Palace at -9.8)...not to mention Turner is second among all GK's in errors leading to goals (and he's only played in 17 matches)!!! If Forest's goalkeeping this season had just been bad within somewhat normal parameters, they'd likely be safe from relegation right now.
     
  14. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    answering my own question, PSV still want to transfer dest permanently despite long term knee injury. A bit surprising, but I guess there is a pretty good relationship there.
     
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  15. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ernie know a good thing.
     
  16. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Trusty let Højlund get a step on him on ManU’s 4th.
     
  17. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Over Balogun’s last 196 minutes he has 2 goals.
     
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  18. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Tillman with 2 goals against Heerenveen.
     
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  19. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    I love the Eredivisie and want more of our players to go there but it was not a serious competition this season.
     
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  20. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    PSV secure title too
     
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  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    9 goals and 15 assists in 22 games worth of minutes across all comps for Tillman. This includes assists against Sevilla, Dortmund, and Lens. Strong season.
     
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  22. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I also think its hard to evaluate a player when the roster design itself is a disaster. The Gold Cup roster this past summer was straight ---. It reminded me a ton of the mismatched '21 Olympic Qualifying roster, strong on D-Mid's, and little else. When you looked at that '23 Gold Cup roster you knew they were going to struggle badly to generate chances and score goals and they did, same with '21. Well Ferreira was on that Olympic team in '21, and looked like garbage like everyone else, but he wasn't, I might be a Ferreira hater, but even I know that that Olympic roster gave him no hope whatsoever at moving the needle and he showed it by breaking out in '21 and '22. I might not think he's deserving of a role with the 23/26 in '22, but I recognize he was/is good, and the '21 Olympic Tournament did a horrendous job providing him any opportunities whatsoever to show that potential he does and did have.

    Im not nearly so certain that Zendejas can work with the senior team, but honestly I think holding anything against specific particular attacking players who were on that '23 Gold Cup roster isn't terribly helpful. The core attack for the team was:

    MF: A Morris, Yueill, Busio, Sands, Roldan, Mihailovic,
    FW: Cowell, Gressel, Vasquez, Zendejas, J. Morris, Ferreira

    That is horrific. The Central midfield has zero creativity to speak of unless you're a Mihailovic-stan which I am now.

    The Forward's are a little bit better, Vasquez and Ferreira are proven finishers, Morris near the end but not there yet, but the tip of the spear options were okay, but Gressel and Cowell are a work in progress and a never was, and Zendejas was thrown into that....

    The only difference for me between the olympics in '21 qualifying, and this group in '23 was this team actually had competent proven strikers and that had speculative ones, but otherwise, its impossible to ignore the fact that the Midfield is heavy on defensive stoutness, and light on creativity, the wing forwards are light on speed and skill and proven anything beyond Cowell, who as a prospect, remains exciting but incredibly unproven.

    The second I saw that roster, I was convinced we'd struggle to make the semi's, let alone the final and was not at all surprised that we crashed before the final. It's bad, real bad, and impossible to evaluate individual mf's, wf's and strikers from it when you just don't have the passing talent in the mf to take advantage of what the strikers offer, nor the talent at WF to do much of anything....

    So for me, some guys just proved they couldn't hack it there when I assumed they couldn't, while others like Cowell, and Zendejas were incompletes because they were not remotely helped by being thrown into this mess.

    I expect Zendejas to fade out, but I don't view this opportunity as a legit opportunity or chance to shine. Much like giving Ferreira the perfect weather game against the hopeless opponent Grenada a year earlier, while giving Wright the monsoon nightmare against a defensively stout El Salvador that shut us down every single game they played us in '21-'23, I viewed this set up as not a fair or reasonable opportunity to eval anybody. The deck was stacked here against hope.

    Do I think Zenedejas will help? Nope. Do I care that he failed like everyone else at that tournament for the most part? Nope. Not a reasonable opportunity, otoh, he has played with the A side and hasn't been any better...I would rather see other guys too, but I am not closing the door because of that Gold Cup, would have rather used that as an U23 Tourney than the junked nightmare we made it.
     
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  23. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Still, 9 goals, 15 assists in all comp. 24 goal contributions in 2000+ mins is nice progress as was 3 assists in 8 champions league matches (against Sevilla, Lens and Dortmund).
     
  24. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #6674 IndividualEleven, Apr 25, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2024
    Zendejas just wasn't good enough at the time of the Gold Cup. But this Clausura, his passing has improved. His goal conversion has improved. His G/A has improved. He merits another chance, especially given the lack of strong goal scoring options on the right side for the US. His passing accuracy in the opposition half of the field is 82% for this clausura. For last season's, it was 78%.
    His goal conversion rate is 27%. For last season's clausura, it was 15%
     
  25. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not at Copa America. That's not the place for "another chance". It's what friendlies & CCAF preliminaries are for.

    Even when it comes to that, you only get so many chances before we move on. Zendejas isn't at that point yet imo. But he can get there. Next one(s) may be his last. He'd basically be Wondo.
     

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