A couple of things may have gotten lost in the whole Razov/Kirovski mess. Jacob Thomas. Obviously he had an excellent match against Hanover last week. What is his deal? He doesn't get much ink here. How does he play? Why withdrawn and for only 70 minutes, Buffalo Soldier? Has he been capped at any level for the US? Somebody mentioned Joe Enochs. He seemed to play well for the US in his one match a few years back, but I don't think he's been back in camp. I know he plays week in and week out in Germany. Is he older? I'll bring up John Thorrington again. I know he's in D3 (and injured again) with Huddersfield now, but he seemed so promising at Man. U. and in Germany. He played well in D2 the times I saw him a couple of years back and is still young. I hesitate to get too excited about Cooper since the legacy of Yanks in the Man. U. reserves is Kirovski & Thorrington. You could put Yanks playing at Leverkusen in the same category.
---------Casey-----------Cooper Lewis----O'Brien---------Dolo ----------Reyna------------- Onyewu------------------Yi --------Berhalter---Gibbs--- -----------Keller-------------
Look right below you. Read it carefully, and I will then explain to you what the words mean. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by old boy Razov was a bust in Spain and Twellman a bust in Germany, yet both are outstanding in MLS. What makes you think that Casey and Kirovski are not capable of the same amount of success in MLS? Each has done better in Europe than Razov & Twellman. Too often here posters confuse MLS success with the ability to suceed in Europe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, you have looked at it. I will shorten it for you. Point 1 -- Razov is a bust. Point 2 -- Kirovski had more success than Razov. Conclusion 1 -- Kirovski is not a bust Conclusion final -- Since "not a bust" means success, Kirovski is a success. Sometimes you actually have to read the sentences together to get the meaning. As to your other "points": 1. I recognize that Kirovski has signed with some good clubs. But the clubs that were really quality were a long time ago. Most importantly, for the 20th time, failure at a higher level is still failure. 2. I am not Kirovski bashing. I think he is a mediocre player. If numbers 1 to 6 in an attacking midfield role were injured, I would call him up.
I guess "mess" means wasting time fighting over an obviously unsupportable assertion. And now that I see your other ideas, maybe it was not the worst way to spend time. Yes by all means cap him as one good game in the German cup is a guarantee of international success. He is not young and mediocre. A dozen better choices in central midfield. Well at least Thorrington is still young and has potential. But it's a big longshot. How did he "seem" promising at ManU? Oh, that's how Thorrington seemed promising. Wise choice on reigning in your enthusiasim, but if Jacob Thomas gets you all excited, by all means charge ahead.
ok here's your problem... you took a flying leap into an incorrect conclusion - he never said "JK is not a bust" or "JK is a success", he said "fared better" - can one bust not fare better than another?
Re : Kiro-Razov. I don't care, you are all giving me a f****n headache with this. Kiro was OK in the English First Division*, Razov was OK in the Segunda. This is where you should compare Casey-----Sanneh Kirovski Lewis Cherundolo Reyna-JOB Gibbs - Berhalter - Gooch Keeper : Does it even matter? We have three of the best in the world. Hell even Hahnemann would do a fine enough job in a pinch. I understand that Sanneh is a midfielder/defender, but even the Bruce though to put him up front trying for a late goal vs Germany - and it is where he started his career. And since I can't think of a better forward (and a consider Kiro an advanced A-Mid) - I just have to work with what I got. Question : does Donovan count? I mean, Leverkusen does own his contract. *- Ed note : Yes I am aware that he rode the bench at Palace the second half of the year, but whereas his previous stints on the pine were due to lack of talent, this last stretch was solely due to the managerial "talents" of one Trevor Francis, who almost ended up relagating the team before he was mercifully canned and is just an all around slimy git with less of a clue than Mr. Bean out there.
Too anal for me, especially since the rest of his posts make it clear that he thinks Kiro was not a bust. Just to sum up, I really don't argue that Razov had a better career in Europe than Kiro. Razov was a moderate success for one season at a mediocre level. Kiro used to sit on the bench for great clubs, then played at times for mediocre clubs similar to Razov's Racing Ferrol and now sits for a good club. To me, both careers are mediocre and to label Razov a bust and Kirovski something better is mistaken. P.S. - Fina's lineup is the best one I have seen, which points out why this whole thread is kind of dumb.
Perhaps you should try to be a little more anal or at least read others' posts more carefully, Martin, because you do seem to jump to odd conclusions. I never said Jacob Thomas belonged on the YA 11, I simply asked about him because I have not seen him play. Buffalo Soldier suggested he be included. He doesn't "get me all excited" though there is something to that whole shaved head thing. I was asking about Joe Enochs as well because I've only seen him play once for the USMNT a few years ago. Somebody else had him included in their YA 11. I mentioned that John Thorrington "seemed" promising when I saw him play for the Manchester United reserves a few years ago and in D2 for Huddersfield, but the competition was pretty spotty on both occasions, so it was hard to tell. I think he played in the same friendly Enochs did, but don't remember him standing out. I don't consider anybody who gets to play soccer for a living to be a bust. Razov returned home because he was not offered a contract with a top level club. Since he went over there to try and get just such a contract, his journey was unsuccessful. Kirovski has signed a series of contracts with top level clubs, therefore his efforts have been successful. You are entirely correct in asserting that both are mediocre players. I believe Razov to be more so than Kirovski. If anything, Kirovski is more dissapointing because he has more skills, has been the recipient of better coaching and had the opportunity to play against better competition. The "mess" I alluded to was the fact that we have spent so much time discussing these two mediocre players.
Damn too much discussion over Raz and Kiro. Hey, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Robbie Russell. He had tremendous year for Sogndal, barely missing out on next year's UEFA Cup. He is one of the top defenders in the Norwiegan 1st division and is hopeful to move to a bigger Norwiegan side.
My understanding is that he and Cherundolo both play Right Back, leaving him stuck behind one of the better rated YAs.
To a general sigh of relief, I am not going to discuss the bust thing anymore. What Old Boy actually wrote is clear and why I think is wrong is clear. I also think it is funny moaning about wasting time discussing "mediocrities" like Razov and Kirovski on this thread. Really, there are a lot more mediocre players being discussed on this thread than those two.
Thomas is a lot of speed and hustle (from what we've read, and what AlexK and olaf can see firsthand and via TV), with questionable finishing skills. I just think he and Casey would be an interesting combo, with Casey playing up top and Thomas behind. A bit like McBride and Donovan. I definitely he'd link up better with Casey than Jovan would. With the limited options at forward in this pool, that's the duo I would choose without knowing who I was playing, etc. And no, Thomas hasn't been capped at any level.