WoSoRef Red Card Tackles

The time has come to talk about red card tackles (and probably many other things, of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings...)

From the men's game, I'll start with a tackle in Arsenal/ Newcastle last weekend where I absolutely agree with the Ref Forum that this should be a red card on Arsenal's Kai Havertz. It was only given a yellow and Newcastle picked up 3 yellow cards for dissent.

Well-known enforcer Kai Havertz takes out Dan Burn. Sees yellow for his sins. You think that was right call, or was this a red? pic.twitter.com/MRexSzCR37

— Men in Blazers (@MenInBlazers) November 4, 2023

Another angle, slow motion

3 Newcastle players received yellow cards for this hospital tackle that Havertz put in.

What a piece of refereeing. pic.twitter.com/QaGwRax07J

— Republic of Anthony (@BissieSmalls) November 4, 2023

From the Ref Forum (again, I can't quote directly because I'm banned from the forum)

***
And here's a red card via VAR in Champions League play between Copenhagen and Manchester United that most of the Ref Forum supports but I strenuously object to. (Red card issued to Manchester United's Marcus Rashford)
The clip starts at 4'07 of the highlight video


Slow motion replay at 4'48 of the video

When have you ever seen a red card given to a player for a simple attempt to shield the ball? Unless he or she threw an elbow in someone's face.

This is a red card completely made up by the use of VAR.

I'll have more to say about both of these (and what I see as the fallacy connecting the two) later but feel free to start chiming in with comments

 

With the NWSL season at an end (what a wild final!), I know this may not be the right time for another thread on refereeing and it may die out quickly. It's OK. We can come back to it later, maybe next year. But I hope some of you will look at the Rashford Red Card in Copenhagen. It's important — and I'm not going to be shy about bringing it up again and again.

This is where the Trinity Rodman red card leads This is where some other red cards lead. Totally ordinary-looking soccer plays and suddenly it's a red card and one team is down a player

It's the reductio ad absurdum of the "logic" behind the Trinity Rodman red card.The referees are for it. They're all in. And most of you are for it. And this is the absurd conclusion it leads to.

Again, the clip starts at 4'07 of the highlight video

If you click on the linked text, it will take you to that point. (For some reason I can't do the same with the screenshot link). A slow motion replay from a different angle is shown after play is stopped at the other end



Ask yourself, in all your years of watching soccer how many times have you seen a red card given for a simple attempt to shield? How many times do you think everybody else has seen it? (I mean, sure, now, but before this new "golden era" of VAR)

If the answer is Never. Or maybe once (and you couldn't figure out what it was about), then how do we say, This is the way the game is supposed to be called? On what basis?

 

In the Referee Forum, some (not all) of the comments on the Rashford Red Card in Copenhagen are very troubling in the contempt and disdain some referees have towards the opinion of players.

Now to be sure, it turns out not all former players are against the red card but if red cards are meant to punish plays where players can get hurt, why wouldn't we listen seriously to the players who are, in essence, saying this isn't the kind of dangerous play where they're afraid of being hurt?

A few months ago, I raised the question in the Ref Forum, Who is the game for? Is it the players? The fans? Or is it for the referees? Is the important thing that referees can show who's the boss, flash those red cards, and when players and fans protest they can point with smug superiority to rulebooks and the guidelines to show they have the blessing of authority?

Frequently when the views of referees clash with either players or fans, they are not primarily (if at all) differences about the written rules (which of course the referees know better than anyone else), they are differences about the Spirit of the Laws. And whether — in the course of changes to the Laws of the Game or changes to how referees, or the governing bodies, or the Poobahs of the sport, have decided among themselves to interpret them — the Spirit of the Laws has been perverted.

Gradually I realized the Referee Forum is not the place to raise points like this. One referee up there — who I won't mention by name because the others up there might frown on him or her — thought I raised good points, but these are some of the things which led to my being banned from the forum.

ADD: link to one of the posts by @Pierre Head will take you to the Ref Forum thread. Pierre Head also disagrees with the red card
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/u...e-discussions-rs.2126411/page-6#post-41826572

 

A couple red card discussions in the Referee Forum which parallel some things I've mentioned

First, from France's 14-0 drubbing of Gibraltar, a red card given after VAR review on France's 3rd goal. At 1'16 of the YouTube video

Of course, "buckled ankle" is exactly what the freeze frame showed on Trinity Rodman's red card on the last day of the regular season. What the moderator is saying here about "buckled ankle" is pretty close to what I've been saying about "studs" — at least "direct" contact with studs as opposed to "glancing"

That was Saturday. And on Sunday, the moderator said this about the red card in Lichtenstein vs Luxembourg

I don't know how long that link will work but I was unable to find it on YouTube.

This is what I warned about making everything about studs — we've all heard someone muttering over their mug, often with a British accent, "there's no studs" in excusing some vicious tackle.

You can see the Luxembourg player, who initially had the ball and thought he had a reasonable play on it, try to pull out and lessen the force on what is a fairly mundane challenge between two players to begin with. Frappart issues a yellow card and that's sufficiently severe a punishment. But the freeze frame (because we all know still photos are the way to judge a foul) shows "buckled angle" therefore Red Card. It's hogwash.

 

Another red card (after VAR intervention) in Champions League (men) play between Braga and Union Berlin, similar to the Trinity Rodman red card, heartily approved in the Ref Forum, which I find ridiculous. At 2'55 of the highlights video


from the Ref Forum

"Excessive force" is a word or phrase which has lost almost all meaning among referees. Playing a game of soccer (which involves running around in case no one noticed), how can there be less force in a foul unless the Braga player came up like the Fairy Godmother and tapped Dorothy on her red shoes with her wand?

Again, I know conversation has slowed down here for now, but these are things which we'll pick up again when the new season starts (assuming I'm still around to yell at BigSoccer Clouds)

***

One of the reasons given for banning someone like me from the Ref Forum — since I violated no Terms of Service as proven by a super-moderator rescinding (upon VAR review!?) the yellow card I was originally punished with — is that newer, inexperienced referees (youth soccer, recreation soccer, etc) come to the Ref Forum looking for guidance and edification on how to become better at applying and interpreting the laws and guidelines given referees. Fair enough, I suppose — I understand the need for more strict moderation in the Ref Forum and I was gradually realizing that the Ref Forum was not the place to raise certain points, which is why I started more threads on refereeing here in the heathen wilds of WoSo.

But the Ref Forum isn't helping the education and edification of younger, newer, inexperienced referees by pretending the sayings and rules-of-thumb they toss around still have the same meaning they had when they were younger referees learning their craft. What's happened to the nature of the tackle as opposed to the results of a tackle? It's all about whether slo-mo or a freeze frame show contact with studs — and whether it's "direct" or "glancing". It's about whether a freeze-frame shows a "buckled ankle"

"Excessive force" is becoming a meaningless phrase. Of course the Laws of the Game have been rewritten to prescribe a red card for excessive force OR "endangering the safety of an opponent", but of course they still try to claim "excessive force" until they can't, at which time they quickly pivot to the weasel-words of "endangering the safety of an opponent" They are increasingly resorting to sophistry.

What happened to the dismissal of "I got the ball" as a defense? Increasingly, "I got the ball" (as shown again by slo-mo or freeze-frame) is a defense and an excuse for a heavy tackle.

I understand (now) the Ref Forum is not the place to question a Church Orthodoxy in need of Reformation. That's why WoSo is the place to tack up 95 Theses, along with the Tiki-Taka threads and Reverse-Jinx threads

 

Reminder that people will see a call they disagree with in a women's game and declare that women's sports is a joke

Premier League is the worst when it comes to refereeing in any of the main leagues in Europe/ North America/ English-speaking world, men or women

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It's almost 2 weeks ago and it was in MLS not NWSL but we have to talk about this one — a tackle by Tomas Aviles on Forsberg in the Inter Miami (Messi's team) vs NY Red Bull on May 4. Tori Penso was the CR and Edvin Jurisevic the VAR. Brooke Mayo, Kathryn Nesbitt, and Thomas Snyder — who all frequently work women's games — were the ARs and 4th Official respectively

This is a red card challenge. I’m sorry. pic.twitter.com/uuNHyTMfuH

— Taylor Twellman (@TaylorTwellman) May 5, 2024

https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comments/1ckfrqs/tomas_aviles_tackle_on_forsberg_yellow_card/

Unfortunately, all I've seen is this slo-mo on Reddit and on Taylor Twellman's X-(Twitter). Of course, to really judge this needs a full speed replay.

This was only given a yellow card and VAR did not call for an on-field review. On top of that, not only did the Disciplinary Committee choose not to retroactively punish this with a red card, PRO apparently has chosen to make this part of their instructive guidelines as a proper (yellow card, not red card) call...(!)

I have lots I'm going to say about this. I think it's idiotic on the part of the referees, MLS, and PRO (the Referee Organization). The Ref Forum here at first seemed to share the general indignation, but then the head honcho got around to downplaying the severity of the foul and everyone there clammed up.

 

There are many reasons to fully discuss the Aviles tackle on Forsberg in the MLS match between Inter Miami and Red Bull New York. Very high on that list is that PRO, the referee organization, has come out in defense of this only being a yellow card in spite of almost universal condemnation on websites like Reddit and X-Twitter and a consensus in our own Ref Forum here on BigSoccer. (I said earlier that one moderator appeared to downplay the severity of the tackle but that was only in comparison to another tackle; MassRef said he, too, had a red card here)

Some posts in the Ref Forum suggest that PRO disseminated a full speed clip of the tackle. The Ref Forum also reveals that PRO sees this a yellow card, not a red card

Let's be very clear about the relevance of this to women's soccer and specifically NWSL. The referee was Tori Penso. The referee organization using this "as a teaching exercise internally" is the same organization which trains, assigns, evaluates, assesses the referees for NWSL.

Frankly, it's an outrageous decision. I realize most people on this Forum don't share most of my opinions; I won't surprised if it's the case here even though in this case there was almost universal outrage outside the WoSo world — in MLS circles on X-Twitter, on Reddit, and in our Ref Forum. It shows so much that is going wrong in the VAR era

• Instead of the nature of the tackle, we're going back to referees making decisions based on the results of the tackle
• No studs = no "objective" VAR basis for a red card
• "There's no place for tackles like this; we need to drive them out of the game" until suddenly we find ourselves talking ourselves into letting them back in...
• Who cares what fans say? Who cares what ex-players say? Who cares what even all our rank-and-file referees say?

* We can add, for MLS officials AND NWSL
Again, I can't quote directly from the Referee Forum because of my persona non grata status, but here's a link to the thread: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2024-mls-match-day-12-discussion-thread.2130356/page-2

 

Esme Morgan is reportedly headed to the NWSL from Manchester City (specifically I've heard she's headed to Washington Spirit). It's probably not something she cares to be reminded of but I remember her leg being broken on a tackle against Tottenham a few years ago. To add insult to injury, Morgan was shown the yellow card. At 0'45 of the video. Replay from a touchline angle comes around 1'30 of the video.


(Ellen White's reaction to the card being given to Esme Morgan as she's about to be taken off on a stretcher comes a bit afterwards. She can't believe it. Neither can I)

There's some similarity with a tackle in an MLS game this weekend between Philadelphia and Montreal, in which Montreal's Raheem Edwards gets hurt and Philadelphia's Jack Elliot receives, first a yellow card, and then a red card from referee Ted Unkel.

Jack Elliott is issued a straight red card for this challenge on Raheem Edwards.

Both teams a man down in the 66th minute. pic.twitter.com/g2CfHXOP1z

— The Free Kick (@FreeKickPod) June 2, 2024

For all my disagreements with how MassachusettsRef conducts himself as a moderator, I agree with his referee-opinions opinions on refereeing (or find them very useful) most of the time. Reading his initial comments on this tackle, I expected to agree with him, but to my surprise I found myself very much in disagreement once I saw a video. He says if anyone should get the foul it's Edwards for being "late to the ball". Edwards is "late to the ball" because Phillips chose to slide with full force, straight towards his opponent, while Edwards went to block the ball with his leg bent back at the knee.

It was similar to the Esme Morgan incident. Massachusetts Ref said Esme Morgan was "late to the ball" Only one player made the risky move to leave her feet and slide in towards an oncoming opponent and that was Tottenham's defender, not Esme Morgan.

If "late to the ball" is the excuse for adding insult to the injured player, then "I got the ball" is the simple justification for any player making a tackle with no regard for the safety of the opponent.

I see the case for yellow card and not red card. Changing the card to red after seeing the "results" of the tackle is not at all ideal. And of course, seeing the slo-mo is no substitute for seeing the play at full speed. Also, a pulled-back camera angle to show Edwards' movements is also necessary for an informed opinion.

***
According to MassachusettsRef, Edwards himself is responsible for his own injury — and I suppose it's possible we could agree on that if we ever saw a more distant camera angle that showed Edwards before the collision.

Naturally MLS has censored the play out of its highlight video

The discussion in the Ref Forum is taking place in the MLS Match-Day 18. Again, I can't quote directly because I'm persona non grata up there but here's a link to one of the initial comments: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2024-mls-match-day-18-referee-discussion-r.2130772/#post-42253816

 

So the good news is that pretty much everyone seems to agree that Scotland's Ryan Porteous deserved a red card for his desperation tackle on Ilkay Gundogan in the opening match of the 2024 Euros against host Germany despite "getting the ball"

The bad news?

• The referee (Clement Turpin), one of the most highly regarded in the men's game, didn't call it on the field — he didn't even call a foul — but needed VAR to make the call
• To justify the red card (and PK), we're having to resort to gibberish about "secondary actions" and the like

Someone posted a comment in the Ref Forum which I suspect is a fairly typical sentiment but shows a lot of what's wrong with refereeing today

Again, I'm not singling out the person who posted the comment (who is a Super-Moderator and you know I have respect for them!!) because I think it's a widely shared sentiment, but why in bloody hell should we need VAR — and 10 camera angles and slo-mo on a loop — to make this call?!

Shouldn't we be able to expect this to be called in a college game, women or men, without VAR?!

***

There's been a breakdown in the Referee's Dialectic — or inner logic or thinking or philosophy — brought on by the use of VAR when it comes to the "I got the ball" excuse.

It's good to see that "I got the ball" wasn't good enough here, because the number of situations where referees deny the "I got the ball" defense has been rapidly diminishing in recent years. In that sense it's good to compare (and contrast) this red card with the tackle on Esme Morgan up above, as well as Jack Elliott's on Raheem Edwards and also on Kelli Hubly's penalty area tackle on Tyler Lussi in Portland / North Carolina last week which I mentioned in the matchweek thread (at 22'50 on the game clock)

There are some reasons why this tackle in Germany/Scotland at the Euros is the worst of the lot and deserves the red card. Still, it makes you wonder is this where the line should be just to call a foul? (Neither Hubly or the Tottenham defender who broke Esme Morgan's leg were called for fouls; Esme Morgan got the yellow card; and although Jack Elliott was given a red card there are apparently a lot of referees who feel the foul, if there was one, was on the guy who got his knee clobbered)

***
ADD — here's a link to the discussion in the Ref Forum. I can't quote directly using those Little Arrow Thingies because I've been declared an Undesirable Person by the moderators up there
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/match-1-ger-sco-turpin-fra.2130906/page-2#post-42284399

 

So the good news was that Scotland's Porteous was (eventually) cited for a PK-foul and given a straight red card, as I mentioned earlier.

The bad news is just everything else. Why does it take VAR to get the correct call when everyone can see the violence of the tackle on Gundogan? How badly messed up is the system when a moderator in the Ref Forum says he can only think of one referee who would call the SFP (Serious Foul Play) and PK in real time on the field. He says Letexier...

(Other than himself of course, but he's talking about UEFA refs at the Euros-level)

Look, I can always be easily wrong — and most people usually think I'm wrong, think I talk out of school, feel I have no business voicing opinions for which I have no credentials and think my banishment from the Ref Forum disqualifies me from saying anything (No love for heretics here!) — but if I happen to not be wrong, then the Bad News is the VAR Regime is making liars out of all of us — fans, players, TV commentators, referees the world over, the governing bodies and their bigwigs and Poobahs (when I include FIFA, IFAB, UEFA , etc then of course my argument starts taking on credibility, tee-hee!)


We're all becoming liars because we all make pious statements about protecting the players — and here someone gets their ankle crushed and we need VAR to call a foul

We get referees in the Ref Forum who, sitting at home with the benefit of instant replays in slo-mo from 5 different camera angles, earnestly assert that they think they would've made such-and-such call in real time on the pitch.

***
I know some of these WoSo Ref discussions have been one-sided and other people haven't felt comfortable responding. It's not ideal but it's alright because I'm laying down some examples and points of reference which can prove useful in future conversations, even if I find it a bit embarrassing that for now some of these threads have been even more one-sided than that Germany/Fraulein thread in the International sub-forum and that's not easy to do (tee-hee!)

But have faith. As Kevin Spacey said in Margin Call, we have accomplished much and our talents have been used for... The Greater Good.

 

And we're back! I can't promise that any of these WoSo Ref threads will turn out to be long-running BigSoccer Classics like the Stop the Madness of Inside-Out Shorts thread, or the Fire VLATKO Now / Reverse Jinx , or Tiki-Taka-Tactics, but the Olympics showed that some of these threads on refereeing identify ongoing issues, thematic issues, which keep popping up in important competitions.

The VAR red card given against Colombia's Mayra Ramirez in their opening match against France falls very much in line with some of the examples in this thread, such as the one against Trinity Rodman in the last week of the 2023 NWSL season and the one against Marcus Rashford in Manchester United's (Champions League? Europa League?) match against Copenhagen.* All three of them are "VAR red cards", red cards only issued after VAR detected (horrors!) direct contact with studs. There is no excessive force as they has been traditionally understood, but now, thanks to slo-mo and freeze-frames which reveal shocking images of buckled ankles, require swift and severe justice in the form of red cards.

Maya Ramirez foul on Salma Bacha at 5'54 of the highlight video


The Mayra Ramirez red card was discussed in the International / Olympics sub-forum. At some point, perhaps, I'll summarize some of the discussion here so it's part of the context of the thread. But it's time to start making some sweeping statements — if not conclusions, then at least propositions, observations — on the basis of these examples.

• VAR is a big problem — our tendency to over-emphasize slo-mo replays and freeze-frames, which exaggerates the severity of some fouls (while at the same time diminishes the severity of other, probably more serious, ones)
• Who is the Game For? For all the pious statements we make about protecting the safety of players, the real tendency in the sport is to protect referees from criticism by making falsely "objective" criteria the basis for their decisions: studs ("direct" contact vs "glancing); "buckled ankles." Referees are becoming more important than the players. Players aren't asking for red cards for the Mayra Ramirez tackle, or Trinity Rodman's, or Marcus Rashford's mundane attempt to shield the ball.
• Many of us seem to agree on the need to be fair in our criticisms of refereeing, but what does it mean when only a handful of us are defending the decisions of real referees making real decisions in real time trying to maintain the respect of real players on the pitch? None of these "red cards" were given red cards by the center referees in real time. Highly competent referees made the decision to give them yellow cards (in the Marcus Rashford incident, no foul was called at all) until VAR pressured them to issue red cards.

Finally, Jinxes are important. The power of jinxes should never be underestimated. Truth be told, the red card to Mayra Ramirez was my fault. I jinxed Colombia in the International sub-forum by saying they deserved to finish one or two games a tournament with nine or ten players because of their penchant to be cynical and negative in certain strategic games. But I didn't mean it this way! Too late. I jinxed 'em

*
Trinity Rodman red card tackle at 2'42 of highlight video


also in PRO's Inside Video Review at 3'57 of Week 25


Marcus Rashford red card Manchester United vs Copenhagen at 4'07 of highlight video

(Slo-motion at 4'48)

 

The flip side to these dubious red cards, these figments of VAR (in my very-much-in-the-minority opinion), are dangerous tackles which should be red cards but aren't given red cards — because slo-mo, freeeze-frames, VAR don't show such slo-moey or freeze-framey things like studs or "buckled ankles".

Like scissors.

This is a red card challenge. I’m sorry. pic.twitter.com/uuNHyTMfuH

— Taylor Twellman (@TaylorTwellman) May 5, 2024

Or because of the Crash-Test Dummy Fallacy — tackles where there isn't "direct" contact with studs, only "glancing", or there isn't "buckled ankles" — because players aren't Crash-Test Dummies who are there to let their legs or knees or ankles get slammed into so referees and VAR can gauge the impacts of the collision using different cameras and different angles viewed in slow-motion.

All this referee-talk about "direct" vs "glancing" is a fallacy because players aren't volunteer Crash-Test Dummies. They swerve, pull up, react to avoid getting their limbs smashed jerk their legs and ankles out of the way to avoid getting them smashed.

@Mikael_Referee gave an example from a La Liga match in 2022 between Atletico Madrid and Cadiz *

At 0'33 of the highlight video


The NWSL example I can't forget is Brittany Ratcliffe leaping out of the way of Michelle Betos charging off her line at her

It went from a DOGSO red card to... a drop-ball, no foul at all. At 2'19 of the highlight video


At 4'11 of Inside Video Review


The Crash-Test Dummy Fallacy exposes the entire absurdity of refereeing in the VAR-era.

* again, I can't quote directly because I'm considered an Undesirable Person by moderators in the Referee Forum but here's a link to the conversation
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2022-23-concacaf-referee-discussion-rs.2121182/page-7#post-40608561

 

Technically not a red card but a 2nd yellow. Also, I was kind of ignoring the noise about it because I have some lingering loyalties to Arsenal (going back to Kelly Smith / Julie Fleeting days), but... God's Bloody Wounds Zounds!!!

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This can start turning someone into a Conspiracy Theorist. So singularly absurd that it's an aberration of no general interest (hopefully) but maybe a worthwhile reminder that this is how bad things get in the English Premier League; and that the single biggest difference between refereeing in the women and men's game is that when there's a bad call or controversial decision in a women's match, there are many who are quick to blame the women, women referees or the women's game itself.

I'm sure there's some discussion of this in the Ref Forum but, crikey, what the hell can they say?!

 

Zounds!!! The majority of them are defending the 2nd yellow card and sending off of the Arsenal player (Declan Rice). They're even quite cheerful about it