World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The true colours coming out

    a fake wannabe gangster masquerading himself as an intellectual and fake historian

    The key with idiots here is to let them type enough until they reveal themselves

    I wondered for a while why your posts were mostly limited to 3 or 4 lines
    50% of insults and the other 50% accusing others of ignorance
    Now at least I know what kind of profile you fit keyboard Zulu.
     
  3. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    this is not the thing, WC playoff with WC tickets on its stake is definitely tougher than second match in group stage lol, not to mention Ronaldo played with 2014 Portugal (lost to Cape Verde without CR months later at home) compared to 1974 Dutch which is one of the greatest team of all time
     
  4. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    20240810_185230.jpg
    so we are not gonna compare

    Portugal results during 2008-15 without Ronaldo playing

    vs

    Netherlands who went into another World Cup final without Cruyff
     
  5. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    If Ronaldo didn't flopped in WC 2014 qualification, there wouldn't be a "play-off" game
    But you're just too idiot to understand.
    Pepe was the best Portuguese player of this generation, especially at Euro 2016
     
  6. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    and Neeskens was the real cornerstone of Netherlands not Cruyff, bringing Netherlands into two World Cup finals
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He won a Dutch Player of the Year award for 66/67 too I know (I'd have to refresh my memory - it may be he won one version and a goalkeeper won the other one, and then Cruyff won both versions in 67/68 IIRC).

    I remember Puck posted some average ratings from mid 68/69 and Cruyff was lagging a little behind the leaders at that point, but I wouldn't be absolutely sure he didn't take any Dutch Player of the Year award (but unlike for the two previous seasons I'm not necessarily aware that he did).

    If I find other things I can let you know (also relating to comments I make in this post).
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There’s a lot more that can be added to this

    Including the Netherlands perfectly capable of scoring freely vs Sweden few months after that World Cup 0-0 encounter
    IMG_4904.jpeg
    IMG_4905.jpeg
    At Swedens home ground

    Johan Cruyff direct involved in 1 out of 5 goals
     
  9. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    My statement is the truth, but yours is just a troll
     
  10. Letmepost

    Letmepost Member

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Ultimately, there isn't a large difference of opinion.

    Bum-Kun Cha was used as the more mobile second-striker in a two-striker system, whereas being more frequently used as a wing-forward in a three-forward system. He could play as the lone-striker, but it was not his best position.

    He did spend most of his Korean national team as the designated right-winger (especially early on), but I believe that isn't the main bulk of his footballing legacy.

    The bulk of his legacy comes from his German club exploits, and it is undeniable that his teams used a two-forward system more often.

    Whether that is referencing Kicker, Transfermarkt, or the words of Bum-Kun Cha himself, who said he was most frequently used as the more withdrawn forward in a two-striker system. We arrive at the same conclusion, if we limit the conversation to his European club career.

    His mediocre goal-scoring was why I hinted that he might not make it as the top 100 forwards of all-time on your list.

    However, even if that is the conclusion, I think it is slightly more accurate to label Bum-Kun Cha as a forward who was not that prolific as a goal-scorer, but flourished as a forward during his time in Europe, by drawing from his years of experience as a right-winger during his days in Korea, to impact the game in a manner that was appreciated a lot by the local German press of the times, as seen by his Kicker ratings, that often had him graded higher than the more prolific goal-scorers of the times.

    Ultimately, it is your call. I don't mind that much either way. A forward who played like a winger, or a winger who scored like a forward. It is all part of a spectrum and we may draw the line at different thresholds even if we agree on the make-up of the player.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  11. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    "Friendly" game
    Not tired of fallacious arguments yet? Lol
    Check Sweden games against Germany and Poland at world cup if you have eyes and brain
     
  12. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    nope, the truth is Cruyff retired from NT in 1977, Dutch went to WC final without him!

    the truth is that Ronaldo won two international trophy, Cruyff didnt!
     
  13. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    Brazil won a WC without Pele, so what?
    1974 Netherlands & 1978 Netherlands were very different teams with different manegers
    Cruyff's performances at 1974 WC & 1976 Euro( against Poland, Italy, Belgium) clears Ronaldo for sure, even at Euro 68 & Euro 72 he had memorable matches such as Hungary Euro 68 & E. Germany Euro 72( both top 10 teams in the world) despite missing most of the games due to suspension from Netherlands federation.
    Ronaldo wasn't even the best Portuguese player at Euro 2016, pepe was
    2 good games out of 7 games won't fool me
    Do you really that stupid to count Nationals league as an international trophy?
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    The difference between Sweden vs the Netherlands in June 1974 and Sweden vs the Netherlands in September 1974 is 3 months

    you can scream
    ItS tHE wOrLd CUp
    all you want

    All I’m concentrated on is the dates and the available players

    if anything the Swedish players would’ve been in a better physical condition playing in September(after sufficiently resting from the 1973/74 season)

    then they would’ve been entering the 1974 WC after 9 continuous months of football

    that part of the “CoNTexT” is the part you will conveniently ignore
     
  15. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    Netherlands couldn't qualify to the Euro 68 & 72 final round and 1970 World Cup cuz Cruyff missed most of the games, you should tell us this side of the story
    Netherlands with Ernst Happel is different to Netherlands with Michels, Michels system was so dependant on Cruyff
     
  16. CristianoPuskas

    Manchester United
    Portugal
    May 27, 2021
    1. which means Pele also have benefit of super team, with exception Pele performance level is much higher than Cruyff

    2. hard to compare their performance in international, apple to orange comparison as Cruyff played with much more luxurious team and Environment
     
  17. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    You're delusional
     
  18. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    Netherlands 66 was worse than Portugal, but Cruyff still produced 10/10 performance against Hungary which was much better than Netherlands at the time, that not an excuse
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #1594 carlito86, Aug 10, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2024
    Qualification for Euro 1968

    IMG_4912.jpeg

    Netherlands vs Hungary

    Drew 2-2 against Hungary with Cruyff on the pitch (1 goal+0 assists)

    Lost 2-1 against Hungary with Cruyff off the field


    Literally No improvement in terms of offensive production
    Netherlands still produce one goal vs Hungary with/without Cruyff


    Netherlands vs Denmark

    Defeated Denmark 2-0 without Cruyff on the pitch

    Were defeated 3-2 by Denmark with Cruyff on the pitch(0 goals + 0 assists by Cruyff)


    Netherlands vs West Germany

    Lost 4-3 against East Germany without Cruyff on the pitch

    Hope this doesn’t get lost in the message that Netherlands scored literally 3 goals vs East Germany without Cruyff



    Won 1-0 against East Germany with Johan Cruyff on the pitch
    The goal was scored by Cruyff and his Netherlands teammates scored 3 in the previous encounter


    I see no genuine improvement here with/without Cruyff
    Johan Cruyff - Stats 66/67 (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt




    Qualification for the 1970 World Cup
    IMG_4910.jpeg

    Defeated Luxembourg 2-0 without him and 4-0 with him(statpadding?)


    Defeated Poland 1-0 without him and lost 2-1 with him(negative presence?)


    Where is the noticeable improvement when he is on the pitch?

    Johan Cruyff - Stats 68/69 (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt
     
  20. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    Of course you wouldn't consider home/away games
    1 random game proves nothing
    Where is improvement? You can see the improvement at 1974 WC & 1976 Euro
    It's still impressive tho, I can see some impressive performances like Hungary & East Germany at Euro 68 qualification
     
  21. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This part is the lie


    you don’t know that
    The only thing we do know with absolute certainty is that when cruyff was on the pitch in those qualification rounds
    his team was producing the same amount of goals as they were without him on the pitch.

    Those qualification matches vs Hungary,east Germany,Poland and Denmark were the 4 examples brought forth
    None of which you are able to counter because the evidence is black and white.
     
  22. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I just finish my work on top five best keeper from 1950 - 1986 before IFFHS held the best goalkeeper of the year award. I really would like to have you comments to improve the list which is based on various sources are ;

    1. Annual Continental best player award : Ballon'Dor and South American Footballer of the year ranking if Goalkeepers are voted.
    2. World or Europe Best XI during 1960s - 1970s such as Eric Batty list, Sport Ideal European XI, FUWO European Team of the Season
    3. National League Keeper of the year and player of the year
    4. Clean Sheet statistics and qualified round in competition
    5. Domestic player rating in Dbscalcio.com and Bigsoccer.com

    Goalkeeper Table.png
     
    Titanlux, PDG1978 and Buyo repped this.
  23. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Hi dearman,
    I think Carrizo's peak was from 1962-65.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Eric Batty a serious source? Yes?

    I say here what I also say elsewhere: also in "cross the finish line first" type of sports you see a clear handicap when it comes to international awards or ratings and so on. Very clearly.

    Then decades later there is another handicap to overcome. The handicaps thrown up by the Dearmans, the Tanks, the Cox and so on.

    No surprise every football country (except Portugal) has a highly rated goalkeeper except us.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...history-of-sport.2122071/page-3#post-42466817

    There are some sports with 'easy' criteria like time or go to the finish line first, in individual events, but even there the collusions win regardless. Countless examples, across a wide range of sports.

    Further enhanced by terrible takes and articles as this (not a word about track cycling of course...)

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...ris-olympic-games-la-2028-sports-sailing-golf

    The Guardian, The Athletic, World Soccer - arguably the axis of evil in sports writing.
     

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