@Dearman, good stuff on updating the world-class data. Per what you have listed here, however, I'd have to ask you also to give further thought about CR7 vs. Cruyff. Per your analysis here, you are saying that Cristiano Ronaldo was the most dominant in the most competitive level of the sport (international club football, specifically European club football) during a period that was shared with the player you consider #1 of all time. And it's true - Ronaldo is the superior Champions League player because he surpasses Messi and all other players. You would expect the best player of all time to be considered the best player of the most difficult club competition during the period he played... but he's not. Cristiano Ronaldo is. And that achievement alone is more impressive than anything Cruyff has ever done. Why? Because he beat the best at the highest level of club competition. You can count on less than one hand what achievements could possibly be more impressive than that - and none of those possible achievements are Cruyff's. To beat the best of all time at the highest level of European competition means whoever did it should have one hand, at the least, on the title of best European player of all time (assuming they are European of course). The fact that Ronaldo guided Portugal to their first and only tournament win in history, whereas Cruyff never won a title with Holland, means it should go to Ronaldo. And it's not just that Euro win. Go take a look at Portugal's record in tournaments before his career and after - literal night and day - and he's undisputedly the main reason why. Just one man's opinion of course - great work, as always.
Recently I just had met a time to make an overhaul improvement of the 9x100 list Positional Hall of Fame: The 9X100 Positional Ranking Lists (xtraimmortal.blogspot.com) in details as below ; 1. Redefine class of players in 9x100 list as below table 2. Reset scoring system for each performance class 3. Get more rating data from update in bigsoccer.com 4. Reconsider the best position of some players and make a transfer. Any comments on rankings are always welcome.
I personally disagree with the classification of Bum-Kun Cha as a winger (even if he fails to get into the top 100 forwards, I believe that is what would be correct given the criteria). Although it is true that he started his career as a right-winger, most of his games in Germany were spent as a forward. Since most of his individual accolades from the media would be for his European club career exploits, I believe this should be his classification, even if he had the natural playstyle of a winger or a wing-forward. This is more simply explained if I breakdown the profile of the two most famous Korean goal-scorers. Heung-Min Son scored approximately 4% of his club career goals with his head (9 out of 211). Bum-Kun Cha scored approximately 31% of his club career goals with his head (37 out of 121). He certainly was not a conventional forward, but almost everything that put him on the map as a footballer was done as a forward.
I think if I was making the call between Michael Laudrup and Michel Platini @Dearman I would be more inclined to place Laudrup as advanced midfielder (he was absolutely a playmaker in style and approach of course, but positionally in his prime normally had quite an advanced starting/average position, arguably almost like a forward, and sometimes nominally as false centre forward even if often moving away from that position) and Platini as playmaker (true he did quite often play with two other central midfielders alongside/behind him but so did Zidane for example - Platini in Euro 84 would be more like an outright advanced midfielder at least at some moments though I'd agree - but overall he was operating from deep as a true midfielder quite a lot I'd say and being involved in initial-phase playmaking and play distribution etc): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-68#post-42435436 Although I do not consider Puskas as 'playmaker' for your categories of course (I am a bit doubtful about Platini's inclusion of him there in any case though), and on balance neither Rivera maybe (2nd edit: you do have Rivera as playmaker though and I think it is ok!). EDIT - Probably I would put Dalglish as a forward too to be honest (I know it gets arguable for players that operated a lot in the 'hole' but he did used to play as one of two forwards/strikers and hold the ball up as well as dropping deep...and overall I think he is suitable for the same role placement as Bergkamp and Cantona for example).
Very great statistical details of Cha's heading goals there. This is certainly one of his qualified skill as a forward. However, based on what I gather position of his play in important games ; 1980 UEFA Cup Final : Right Wing Forward in 4-3-3 system. 1981 DFB Pokal : Center-Forward 1988 UEFA Cup Final : Right Wing Forward in 4-3-3 system. I also quote this paragraph from Kicker Ranking 1955 - 2015 by Gregoriak. When I've been acknowledged he is not a winger but as aforementioned, he was placed as wing-forward. Based on this position, player may be categorized as forward if his ability is more qualified to forward skill requirement than winger. If a coach of Frankfurt or Leverkusen assigned him as a center forward, the utilization of his skill can be mismatched as he wasn't a prolific scorer.
I see Laudrup was even second striker in his early year with Juventus and Barcelona. Due to the tactics manager used, he was just behind center-forward although he was seen too limited in support scoring. I've defined player position for their best role. Anyway, I totally get your point. I initially defined this position as Trequartista and then I changed name to be advanced midfielder. Both advanced playmakers and deep-lying/withdrawn forward played on three-quarter line most often. In case of Laudrup, he may be 100% midfielder and 60 % Three Quarter while Dalglish might be 60 - 70% forward, 100 % Three Quarter, 20 - 30 % Midfielder.
I'm sorry to leave your comments very long. I'm inclined to agree as C.Ronaldo has a greater consistency in club career voluminously, Let I check how I would I alter the rating score.
What I meant to imply mate was that I think Laudrup's best and most frequent role was advanced midfielder/trequarista moreso than deeper-lying playmaker (even in Real Madrid, but certainly in Barcelona where I would tend to say he had his peak - potentially playmaker would be suitable for his last year as Ajax/Denmark player I guess though). At Juventus he played as a kind of 'second striker' that was positioned initially as left winger/AM I think, predominantly, in a Zona Mista type system. I still think the same as I said before about Dalglish to be honest (especially given the classifications of Cantona and Bergkamp for example). But I don't want to make a big issue about it of course; I was just giving my perspective/awareness about these particular cases (including the Platini one, given the category you have placed Zidane and Rivera in for example - I still think he can go into the same one, but it's your choice obviously). Cruyff>C.Ronaldo for me (with the disclaimers that I'm not a C.Ronaldo fan, and to be fair I suppose the number of full games of Cruyff I saw is somewhat limited - but anyway I think he was surely more multi-faceted, creative, a much better and more frequent assister and I don't think Euro 2016 should be seen as a great point in favour of C.Ronaldo to be honest if you look at the player average ratings for that tournament and the fact he wasn't on the pitch when the title was won, they came 3rd in the group, he had bad games in the tournament etc....). Just to add a counter-point on that one (or counter-propaganda it could be called even - obviously you have your own mind though and I won't challenge whatever decision you come to - but maybe you shouldn't feel pressured into a change anyway....).
C. Ronaldo club career especially in UCL is (by decent margin) better than Cruyff's much better adaptability (dominating EPL and La Liga, 21/22 was good too) great in Serie A quite clearly better than Cruyff's stint in Eredivisie (sorry, but its factually not a good league) and he only won 1 LaLiga with Barcelona his overrated season with Feyenoord should not be mentioned as good point here because Dutch league was already sink from european top level (barely top 10) some may argue that Cruyff international career was the key in this debate but even then 1974 WC is overrated (the first 4 games where Cruyff had 9/10s are when Netherlands dominating) as you can see in game-stats Cruyff then proceed to decreased in the last 3 games where the games was even (average of 7/10) his 1976 Euro was disappointing too
On this one I guess the main thing is to see what Letmepost replies, but reading the paragraph by Gregoriak makes me more inclined to say the suggestion was that he more often played in a 4-4-2 system (as supporting/second striker). I don't know the player well enough overall, but had thought he was more of a support striker or striker for what it's worth. I guess the question is how often indeed he played as wing forward in a 4-3-3 and when he did was he operating predomiantly from wide or as one of 3 strikers/forwards. From the opening minutes of this game I'd say indeed he was right forward, but it's not fully clear if he was more winger or (support) striker maybe: Borussia Mönchengladbach vs. Eintracht Frankfurt 1979-1980 | Footballia It does look like Wikipedia might have this one correct (I was half-expecting not), which you may have seen already rather than relying on Wikipedia or similar, but it's just that it wasn't necessarily his typical position in the 4-4-2 I guess (like I say from what I knew of him, and from how I see the words Gregoriak wrote too): Bayer Leverkusen vs. RCD Espanyol 1987-1988 | Footballia Maybe this is a good example for Laudrup (and fairly typical for his positioning in that time I think - indicating being more suitable as advanced midfielder/trequartista than deeper-lying playmaker): That was the time he had his peak in La Liga in terms of the media ratings too. For Dalglish maybe these can show what I'm suggesting (he won Player of the Year in England in both these seasons): For Platini I guess this can be a good illustration:
His late (and early) stage Euros 76 qualifying is way over C.Ronaldo in Euro 2016 mate to be honest! He was absolutely ace at Feyenoord, much much better than C.Ronaldo in 21/22 (you surely can't dismiss 83/84 and up-play 21/22????). No offence of course (I know you are a Cruyff detractor, while I am I suppose indeed in effect a C.Ronaldo detractor lol...but if nobody else is going to counter then I am entitled to I suppose - maybe a nicer way to look at it is I am a Cruyff fan even if he's not my outright favourite as such, and likewise you with CR7 I guess). The Netherlands - Belgium 5 / 0 (Euro 76 Qualifier: April / 25 / 1976) (youtube.com) Cruyff vs Belgium 1976 (assist and goal - away) (youtube.com) Johan Cruyff vs Poland (Home) (Euro 1976 Qualifying) 1975-76 (youtube.com) Johan Cruyff vs Italy 1974 - Euro 1976 Qualifying (youtube.com) Johan Cruyff vs Poland | 1975 Euros Qualifiers | 1 Assist | All Touches & Actions (youtube.com) (These are either against top sides of the time, historically top sides, or in late stage qualifying which is equivalent to knockout phase in newer times).
i like too much of both ...players even Johan Cruyff and C. Ronaldo C. Ronaldo 1233 matches .. 895 goals ......... 0, 72 % goals 317 assists............... 0, 25 % assists ( direct assists and indirect assists ( others ) ) G+ A === 0, 97 % PARTICIPATIONS TO THE TEAM Johan Cruyff 709 matches 403 goals .............. 0, 56 % goals 458 assists ........... 0, 64, 59 % assists ...( direct assists and indirect assists ( others ) ) G+ A ====== 1, 20 % PARTICIPATIONS TO THE TEAM I disagree abit from this idea that Eredivisie was one lower or weaker League .... mainly .... Rijkaard ... Van Basten ... Gullit ... Ac Milan revolutionary the World Football if the League ( Eredivisie ) were too weaker like you said ....: Gullit Van Basten Rijkaard ... should flopping Serie A Calcio 1987/88 ... Psv was champion of European Champions Cup in 1988 !
Cruyff 1974 World Cup>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any C.Ronaldo World Cup campaign. And while C.Ronaldo has more titles and goals in CL/EC, Cruyff has a greater assist rate, and better individual performances such as vs Liverpool 1966/67, Feyenoord 1974/75, I would honestly say.
Sorry, I'd put two copies of Liverpool vs Watford 82/83 in my post re: Dalglish - now I fixed it and inserted Liverpool vs West Brom 78/79 as intended (both of them extended highlights, but showing his role well enough I think).
Ronaldo vs. AS Roma 2006/07 is better than Cruyff's best and Ronaldo surely averaged better rating in UCL if we go match-by-match. Ronaldo had to play with Portugal who cant even beat Cape Verde without him!
Anyway, like I say no hard feeling mate. Maybe we shouldn't also start arguing about Bobby Walker vs Gyorgy Orth though lol (based mainly on what old guys have said about them)!
but Why ??? too much hate .. with Johan Cruyff .. ??? Cruyff and C. Ronaldo are Top 10 easily nowadays !
No way on the first point (for me anyway - Arsenal away in 08/09 would be better than Roma at home in 06/07 for me, where Giggs might arguably have been MOTM?). I know Carlito does think very highly of that Roma performance though to be fair (not to say he doesn't of the Arsenal one). If Cruyff played for Real Madrid (or if Platini did) instead of C.Ronaldo (perhaps also substituting a midfielder for a striker/scorer in the squad elsewhere to compensate - Modric out, Lewandowski in or something? - obviously in Cruyff's case he was often nominally the CF anyway, but still in terms of role he was more a creator) would Real Madrid have won less? Speculative I realise but food for thought, and certainly I think at their peak it would seem very feasible they'd slot into any particular CR7 era RM squad instead of him and have similar success (let's not forget RM continued to add CL trophies after he left, just like Man Utd had several PL trophies and a CL trophy not long before he joined). I think they'd score less goals, but they'd create more.
Netherlands before Cruyff's Intl debut: 1966 FIFA World Cup qualification – UEFA Group 5 - Wikipedia Cruyff's Intl debut vs Hungary
There's no point trying to convince younger people... of Johan Cruyff's incredible qualities they... are blind at the moment..
1973/74 La Liga - one off the bottom of the league before Cruyff started playing: A history of the 1973/74 la liga season | El Centrocampista
Ronaldo vs Sweden 2013, vs Hungary 2016, vs Spain 2018, vs Swiss 2019, vs Dutch 2012 are comparable to Cruyff'best in Netherlands jersey. Cruyff demand a high possesion team to make a difference. CR does not, due to his superior versatility