Let's look at how some legends viewed on world best footballers XI: 1- Marcello Lippi: ------- Maradona ------ Pele --------Garrincha -- J. Cruijff -------- Di Stefano -------- Zico ---- Fachetti --------------------------------D. Santos -------------Maldini ------ Beckenbauer--------- --------------------- Buffon ---------------------- 2- Tele Santana ------- Romario --------------Ronaldo -------- --------------------- Pele ------------------------ ----- Maradona --------------- Zico ------------ -------------------- Falcao----------------------- R. Carlos ------------------------------- Cafu ------------ Baresi -------- Aldair--------------- ------------------- Tafarel ----------------------- 3- Pepe : ----- Maradona --------- Pele ------- ------------ ----------- Falcao --------------------Garrincha ----------------------------Guardiola------------- --------------- Beckenbauer ------------------- N.Santos ---------------------------- C. Alberto ------------Figueroa ------L Perrira------------ --------------------- Gilmar -------------------- 4- Carlos Alberto: ----------- Ronaldo ----------Pele --------------- ---Jairzinho ------------------------ Garrincha ------------ Gerson -------- Zito ----------------- N.Santos ---------------------------D. Santos ------------ Aldair ------L Perreira------------- ------------------ R. Ceni ----------------------- 5- Paolo Rossi: -- Maradona ----- Pele ------- J.Cruijff ---- ---------Zidane ------------ Di Stefano ------- ------------------ Lampard-------------------- Maldini --------------------------- D. Santos -------- Beckenbauer----- Canavaro--------- ------------------- D Zoff -------------------- 6- Leonardo: --------- Romaldo ---------- Pele ------------ -- Maradona --------------------- Zico ------ ---- -----Cruijff ----------Zidane ------------ Maldini -------------------------- Leandro --' ----------Beckenbauer ---Baresi ------------ --------------------- Dasaiev ----------------- 7- Junior Baiano: ------- Ronaldo -------------Romario------- -------------------- Pele ---------------------- ---- Maradona ---------------Zico ---------- ------------------- Zidane ------------------- Maldini --------------------------- Jorginho ----------- Edinho ----- Aldair -------------- ----------------- Tafarel ----------------------
LOL ... Let's substitute his team with Dani Alves' in 2009 (weird Xi and pro Barca?) ------------------ Fabiano ---------------------- ----- Robinho -------------------Messi ----------- ------- Xavi ---------------- Kaka ---------------- ---------------Gilberto Silva--------------------- Abidal ---------------------------------- Cafu ----------- Juan ----------- Puyol ------------ ------------------ J. Cesar ----------------------
Hi Dearman,can you make a list with TOP 1000 Greatest Footballers Of All-Time,maybe TOP 250 or TOP 500
I can make but I think rank players in different positions should be enough at 50 players . Anyway, all players in top 50 CM, OL,OM,FW,STK would be surely rated in top 500 if I were to do.
Dearman, here's a profile when described Rab Howell's role. He was a Right Halfback in old 2-3-5 (his partner in the other side as LHB was Needham) http://www.chrishobbs.com/rabhowell.htm Check that it said, Howell has duels with Outside Forwards. Also in the Spartacus site, about Needham role (see #4 comment from A.Gibson) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SHEFFUneedham.htm I hope, it helps to your description of Pyramid tactic (who marks who, considering it was more like a zonal marking)
Thanks for such a useful link and this topic of discussion has long been not settle down to apply left-half and right-half role in Pyramid system to nowadays category. It is obvious that they mark outside-forward the most in defensive responsibility so it is no doubt it was closest to today side-back in defensive duty but had a duty to stop opponent in central midfield area ?. Head to consider offensive duty, its primary position is not semi-side and semi-half midfield player so I understand that its attacking role is most fit to left and right-central midfielder in nowadays 4-3-1-2 formation (even half-back is less attacking-minded player) and nowhere close to wing-back offensive duty. When combined both functional role into account, I saw it is slightly closer to DM than SB imn nowadays. If there is anything wrong in my statement, please do me a favor to correct it.
"sioux" can go into more detail here if he so chooses: it all depended on whether the "classic" W-H was a "constructive"- or "destructive"-type of W-H, mate...
I think that pyramid halves weren't proper midfielders. Since their roles were support defense and attack lines. They could be seen in their own area or close to the opposing area (the most ofensive minded). I guess a sort of box-to-box players by right, center and left sides. I'd said that proper midfielder role born with WM, with halves "statiotaned" in the midfield zone, also some inside forwards (the deeper ones). In the sense that they need to control midfield and organized attacks in a different style to kick-and-rush that was common in the early days. I guess Roy, can help here. I think he can explained more accurately
Add Argentina Soccer Fan in group of consultants (Just forgot he impressively contributed to my works about Argentine football)
I add Falcao in Top 50 Best Player Ever after making table analysis of annual nest player of the year award. Falcao is really so consistency in world-class performance which should be at least 5 - 6 seasons (two times best player in Brazilian League and dbscalcio shows his rating around 6.6 to 6.7 average points in all four seasons with AS Roma). He is now rated by me in 37th best domestic footballer of all-time (Refer to this table of performance http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2013/01/competition-level-greatest-ever-database.html Falcao is also one of the best players in the 1982 World Cup and his performance in the 1979 Copa America is one of the best among Brazilian team. I am now setting Falcao at 45th (4th Best Central Midfielder Ever) after Rijkaard and Romario but the ranking might be updated if any additional analysis found to influence it. A slight update is ranking of Raymond Kopa, If we consider his contribution in int.club and NT, he by far has a better career than Rivera (Even Rivera is very strong and consistency in domestic football. Kopa is now in top 30 best player ever list.
1- Not sure how you rate them in number of WORLDCLASS year? But its' funny to list Maradona world class in 83 and 88 but left out Pele 60,61, 66 and 70??? Base on what? and there is NO WAY Pele worldclass years would be less than 10 If taking Maradona or Zico as 6 in average! 2- The point ratings (Maradona 5,2 > Pele 4.8 ) is also TRIVIA and OPINIONATED with missing info. Rule of thumb: Pele always achieved more (if not saying 2 to 3 times more) than Maradona in those so called "world class" year. hence Maradona got more points? for what? 3- The point in Phenomenon years are also TRIVIA and MISINFO: Note Pele 58,59 61 62,63 64, 65 were biggger than ANY best year of Maradona ever made. For example, most often people rated Maradona 86 (for his WC ONLY) but forgot that was a just good season at his club. Pele ALWYAS had BOTH great club + great NT in his best season. Maradona 79 80 were just a great seasons, NOTHING PHENOMENO. =================================================== Besides Pele vs Maradona, the same went to Zico vs Cruijff vs Di Stefano and Puskas. Same misinfo that led you put Zico higher then them .... I think. (even I am a huge fan of Zico) ==================================================== I hope you take my comment as "positive constructive" not criticized ... until you can come up with a (valid and tangible) "system" that PROVED Maradona could have (ever?) earned more points than Pele ! I do NOT think so. What I meant your misinfo = mis-interpretation of certain CRITERIA that built up your points to conclude such ranking!
Not everyone buys into the party line, and you can't force everyone to agree with you Another ranking where Maradona beats Pele
I think you can't apply your believe of Pele as the greatest ever to this seasonal rating but it'd better trying to separate level of Pele on his own domestic career in each season ? Surely it is difficult to believe he reached his peak equally in a ton of seasons. I tried to watch clip of Pele in some available seasons and in such a lower Brazilian state league standard, he scored too many goals against a very low standard team in some seasons and if he could not score a same or similar number as he did in 1961, it is more difficult to rate player in phenomenon-class especially in 1963 he scored just around one goal per game in average which a ton of Brazilian forwards ever did (Don't get me wrong, I'm not say scoring recor is everything but it is required to be better for phenomenon-class rating as you have to reach this class in both scoring and other functional play). Pele in 1958 was already a world-class scorer but his NT career shows he had almost no assist for that year so it is one of his performance results tend to tell us about his best skill (scoring not assiting) at that time and Pele is known to be a better creator in his later seasons. For me, those 2 -3 seasons were his real peak. Maradona's seasonal rating is available in almost all seasons of his career. Dbscalcio's rating evidence shows Maradona in very high point in 83 (Half season due to injury) and 88. Honesty, I rate Maradona is the same level as Pele in domestic football and even NT career which Maradona is considered to reach phenomenon-class in World Cup while Pele was reaching the same class in 1962 but he was unclucky to injury. In 1958 and 1970 tournament, he was not even a clear best player of the tournament. But I surely rate Pele as the best ever since he was far better than Maradona in int.club.
While I agree it's always a hassle to do ratings for players from different era. and DO NOT get me wrong: I do NOT want to convince you as who was better! But my point: 1- You (or someone else ) can or might say: I think Maradona had better skills (who knows? and it's opinionated, personally. 2- BUT once you (or someone else) start established a SYSTEM to rate them both side by side: I do NOT think there is a system that could ELEVATE Maradona (leveL) to be near Pele - not so ever. BLAME on Pele's too perfect career! However, rule of thumb )on how to compare players across the eras) 1- How that player did comparable to the others in his same eras? - here Pele 10, and others were 8 or lower in average. While Maradona was 9 and the others in his era were like 8 in average. 2- using era's adjustment: 60s' were at least equal to 80's. 3- His achievement in those best years : Pele achieved MUCH MORE than Maradona ever did as crystal clear. 4- WEAKNESS and DIsruption career: Pele never failed, while Maradona failed more than 3,4 occasions (1WC, 2 copas and 1 UCL) 5- Domestically, Maradona FAILED at Barca (not his fault but just like Pele at WC62 66). Maradona would NEVER win HALF of what Pele did: 19topscorers +15 legaues champs 6- International clubs: Maradona won 1 UEFA cup <<<< Pele 2 libertadores + 2 intercontinentals. I am sure Careca was best player for Napoli in UEFA 89. Pele was surely the best player at liberatore and intercontinental cup 7- Lastly, at WOrld cup level: Pele was #1 in most list out there. 12goals+9ass/14games was like a GOLDEN RULE for anyone to follow (including Maradona 8ggoals+8ass/21games ) Your exaggeration of Maraodona at WC is not true! Maradona did FAIL at WC82 and somewhat at WC94 (drugy) Pele was injured, not his fault.
Pele was a true professional. But he lacked spice. Maradona was never a professional but had plenty of artistry and character. It's like Ali vs Frazier. One was artist/entertainer the other was an athlete/professional However, I noticed one interesting in your point 3. And that's true Pele never had a disruption from being unprofessional whereas Maradona had. Quite remarkable for a brazilian. I guess Pele most be one in a few Brazilians to stay professional throughout his entire career. Rivaldo also hasn't had any trouble with his career though.
Dearman, Since i like you alot (for your willing to learn football and pay much effort to putup something for people in younger generation to read and learn) I like to contribute my knowledge to you so you can make a better document that's all. Believe me, there are some (stupid) ratings of players compared to your (good) list out there and nothing we can do right? =========================================== Now for Pele, not sure you have seen the following "who were best in big games"? One can see Pele name poped up on top in most cases, and IRONICALLY Maradona was not there .... 1- http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/3482?cc=5901 2- another link with different VIEW (in criteria) http://www.averageopposition.com/2012/08/top-50-big-game-scorers-5-1.html Pele was #3 behind Di Stefano and Gerd Muller ... (for they UNDERLOOKED Brazil league of 60;s and OVER RATED European cup of 60-70) I could count MANY MANY more than 13goals of their "criteria" 3. Pele (Brazil) 1956-1977 / 40.5 points – 13 goals
Rivaldo failed dearly for AC milan 2003 right after he was great at WC02. Like I said Pele was the ONLY player who never failed (in any situation) Puskas was close 2nd in this category
Dearman what are your sources for rating season phenomenal/world class etc. for players pre-1960/70 players? Like Erico, Moreno, Pedernera, Walter, Zizinho, Garrincha, Sarosi, Dean etc.
This may disppoint you but I've to admit I have no source for those players and I just try to do my best at applying my systematic technique with comlying statistical data, historical regard of skill, historical award/regard of performance, a few watch in videio clip and then comparing between players in the same era to find out outstanding level in each season. Anyway, I just hope evidence of rating shall be found more but it is much difficult for players in the farther past era.
Your statistics is very interesting but I just see it has no point to combine all positions in the same table comparison without coeficient setting for each position in term of opportunity of scoring.
But if consider only peak performance, Maradona in the 1986 WC is better of any of that of pele and I think this is more important than comparing the lowest state between them. Pele is not even clearly the best of player in any world cup tournament (1958 could be given to Didi and 1970 could be given to Jairzinho/Gerson as well.
not sure what you trying to suggest....the criteria of this link is relativ easy to understand....(the other links you postet is not easy to undertsand...the criteria of the games..no Information) 1:semifinals and finals Count....... 2:intercontinental Cup and european Supercup Count doesent count.. 3:domestic games doesent Count... the only Argument for pele is :..not one of his copa america Goals are Count up...i personal credit him minimum 1 Goal he has scored against argentina 1959..this game has the value of a copa america final....