The great Maradona-Gullit rivalry: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...wards-1979-1986.2019142/page-19#post-38174157 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...wards-1979-1986.2019142/page-19#post-38174163 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...wards-1979-1986.2019142/page-19#post-38174179
I would not take too serious for goalscoring record in uncompetitive match. It is easy to expect winger to score at least 1 -2 goals but George best didn't need to intend to make score as a winger particularly the situation opponents were seen to be lack of potential to overtake. I watched full-match in 2nd leg semi-final of 1969 European cup. I rate Charlton as man of the match obtained only 7.5. Best did score two important goals in QF against Rapid Vienna that is not very strong in defense as well. I agree He might not be great enough for supreme-world-class. I will go through analysis of these threads for Maradona and Gullit. Sometimes after 1986, Maradona's class might presumably be better than ordinary world-class but also not reach level of supreme-world-class. Just to find tendency which class he perform at the most adjacent.
@Dearman You completely ignore this glaring error that ive taken time to demonstrate In case you think im making it up Let's not mince words. He scored a crucial goal against Inter, a crucial and quite phenomenal goal against Porto and two more very, very impressive ones against Arsenal. Even in the final, he was Man United's best player and only threat. He had an outstanding tournament, and did his very best to prove he could beat Leo Messi, but... https://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/c...league-special-team-of-the-tournament-2008-09 It is criminal to rate CR supreme international class for this This was a better KO stage performance than any he had for real Madrid except 2016/17 You gave George best a supreme world class rating for 2 goals against rapid Vienna (3rd place Austrian league) If he could ever do what CR did in the 08/09 KO stages youd probably call him a phenomenon
I just review and I even find my mistake to identify his UCL class in supreme-inter. As I review score in each knock out match of CR7's UCL 2008 - 2009. He obtained 7 in final match and get 8 points almost all remaining matches in knock out round. I have revised his class to supreme-world-class.\ I also revise rating of Best, Maradona and Gullit as I agree with you those seasons are overrated.
http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2012/12/Era-Ranking.html Just finish improve the list "World positional ranking of the eras". Separating side-back from central defenders and expand the lists including all players achieved at least 3.5 international-class seasons within 5 years as ideal concept but more cases are approximately rated. I'm looking forward to get opinions on this one as I think many rankings should be readjusted. The anecdotal on this one is the era of 1st half 1970s has the most qualified central defenders with 14 players although I'm not sure about the level of Dragan Holcer and Jerzu Gorgon's domestic performance, both were playing with their peak during this time.
Does Josimar really deserve to be that high in the rankings of 1980's fullbacks? Thought he had a reputation as a one tournament wonder.
He is ranked at 2nd. Look at other lower ranks. 3rd : Bessonov was named in top 10 USSR player of the year only twice (8th place in 1986 and 3rd place in 1989) He appeared other five times during late 1970s to 1981 as midfielder. 4th : Rafael Gordillo : I have removed him and transfer to 1st half 1980s as La Liga rating shows he was in top 50 La Liga best rated just one year in 1985 (28th Place) 5th Manuel Amoros : He is named in Onze' dor team of the year 3 times during the 2nd half 1980s. I understand his peak is during mid-1980s so I did not name him so high. I agree Amoros should be higher than Josimar ever since. 6th Joao Pinto : I'm not sure about his level but he I think he might be the best right-back in the world in only year (1987) when Porto won European Cup.
Ah now Gullit is the next countryman in line to get also the overrated tag by Dearcrap. In reality he beat and starred twice against Napoli (both the 4-1 and 2-3), and even the Argentina-Italy nexus couldn't ignore that. He finished top three in the Gazzetta ratings which was not too common for offensive players at the time. Typical Dearcrap.
Gullit in 1987 season was first rated by me as phenomenon-class in a half of season (rating 6.75 in dbscalcio) but generally the phenomenon-class should reach nearly 7.00 so I decided to downgrade his performance to supreme-world-class for the half season.
Let's not kid ourselves that differences of 0.10 or 0.20 over a full season are significant. Gullit was controversially and mysteriously red carded as well this season (Milan lost points) and that drags it down. Furthermore, very few players have reached a dbscalcio average of 7.00 or higher in Serie A, not even your Maradona reached that. Gazzetta dello Sport ratings are the least flawed anyway (I believe, but they do have some blind spots).
Casio also obtained around 7.00 in 1982 but I did not rate him in phenomenon-class. For Gullit, I just tend to agree with the rating. He was complete player but not phenomenon as any of dribbler, scorer, creator or passer. His best ability that is better than all of other world legends are physical abilities.
Aguero is ahead of Lewandowski in the first and second part of the 2010 decade and yet is below the Polish in the general ranking?
Well, there are more phenomenonal players who are not necessarily phenomenal in anything they do (Matthaus, Maldini, Xavi, Buffon etc.). It naturally lacks soms consistency. This is to be expected though of someone who sees himself as an Argentina fan in the description (among other countries). 7:20 12:00 to 12:30 14:15 etc.
@Dearman On what basis is maradona 84/85 the single greatest domestic season of all time I never even heard @Vegan10 make such an outlandish claims Where is the phenomenal production against top serie A teams(0 open play goals) His most famous 84/85 serie A performance(probably ever)came against lazio finished 17th place with only 15 points This has to be one of the worst teams in serie A history Only catania 82/83 with 12 points put on a more pathetic performance Nobody talks about this I dont know why Maradona 84/85 scored 9 non penalty Serie A goals(1 handball also) 4 of those goals came against one of the worst Serie A teams in history https://www.transfermarkt.com/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/saison/1984 Why is this more impressive than ordinary world class Luis Suarez 13/14 4 stunning open play goals against Norwich(18th place) Or what be did to the other PL bottom feeders 8.92 whoscored rating after 12 PL games(19 open play goals+5 assists) Maradona was evidently in the midst of his dribbling prime But so was he in 1982/83 I don't see what maradona 84/85 offered that he didn't in 82/83 Dbs calcio ratings aside how was maradona in his debut season for napoli more prolific in terms of dribbling runs,solo goals,open play assists,playmaking etc than he was in 82/83 for Barcelona Did Maradona improve technically in the those 2 seasons I just don't see it Maradona was most probably a phenomenon in 1980 (40 goals+20 assists as a FW/AM) Maybe this could be comparable to some of lionel Messis 'lesser' best seasons(2009/10 ?) although it is difficult to gauge how prolific he would've been in bundesliga for example (the top league of that time) Is it possible that WC86 was an outlier for him Menotti said Messi 09-12 was maradona 86 almost every single matchday Maradona IMO regressed to a world class or supreme world class level in Italy I find it very difficult to see any statistical method that could justifiably place Maradona as a superior domestic performer to Pele,Zico,Cristiano,Johan Cruyff,puskas,ADS,messi or euesbio Its only 2 league titles in almost 10 years in Europe for Maradona Some of these players had almost double digits as the main protagonist Napoli wasn't great but so wasn't Verona His first scudetto also wasn't won in emphatic fashion(check the ratings) I honestly don't feel maradona had a more successful club career as George best Maybe even the apex of George bests career was higher(European cup at 22 years old with assists against Madrid in the SF and the winner against benfica in the final) Maradona was a genius but a flawed genius Your ratings paint a picture of someone who actually realised his true potential with the trophy cabinet to match
I think raters evaluated Junior based on criteria of central midfielder position and the rating seems not standardize criteria between positions as well so that's why Causio obtained around 7.0 in 1982. Maradona in Spain could not be basically qualified as one of the best single domestic performers as his number of appearances is just a half of season for each. I also have seen highlight you provide, Maradona was phenomenon in assisting ability. I even think whether he made the record most assists ratio in domestic football history. Maradona often switched on wings and his dribbling performance were great but also rares scene to see he dribb pass number of players. Do you have assists stats of Maradona in 1982, 1983 and 1985 or any other season ? I'd like to have it to have more accurate comparison.
I did not rate any of player you give an example in any of phenomenal class. They own limited number of specific skills performed as one of the best ever. Anyway, Theoretically defender and defensive midfielder would not need to possess any phenomenal skill aspect to be rated in phenomenal class. I never rate Beckenbauer in any phenomenal class but he would have been if he could either score more goals or made more assists or dribb pass more players although none of his skill are in qualitatively phenomenal but it could be compensated by quantitative (number of world-class skills). Defensive skill is an ability with less quality than offensive. If any defender could make > 85% tackle or interception won against phenomenal attacker, they could be deserved as a phenomenal performer but in reality it has never happened because nature of most defenders are strong, tall and great in positional sense. A young player who is very agile, fast are invited to play in offensive role. Return to Gullit. When his defensive skill is remarkable for attacking player but still not in world-class, he should have any of top-class skill as one of the best ever but none of them is identified.
What gibberish, twisting and turning while hiding behind mathetmatics, this is again. Tell me in what exactly Di Stefano was phenomenal class? His dribbling, passing, scoring? Not quite, really. Not in a very clear sense. The same sort of gibberish and pseudo techno babble that is used to place Brazil as #2 country. Rather than only 'defensive skill', look also at the defensive effect. Take the 1988-89 season when he could play half of the games. "Milan conceded 17 league goals in the 1604 minutes that he couldn't play, and only 8 goals in the 1456 minutes he played. In the European Cup (two goals in the final) Milan conceded 4 goals in the 342 minutes he did not play (Red Star and Sofia), and 1 goal in 498 minutes he played (Red Star, Werder Bremen, Real Madrid, Steaua). In the close run 1987-88 season Milan conceded 2 of the 14 goals in the two games Gullit was not playing." You clearly belong to the anti-dutch clan. With the nonsense that Uruguay, Hungary and Czechoslovakia are ahead. Tell me how many Champions League winning players they have. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Highest_average_ratings_since_1970 .... and then you dare to place others markedly above Cruijff as 'greatest football personality'. You are a first class enemy, from a first class dictatorship state, a state that glorifies the nazis. You are the type of people, the lemmings, that gives room for conspiracies while the UEFA will think three times before they put a second Anders Frisk on a Italy or England match, given the potential backlash. The marketing and money driven organization.
II have been following Vegan's thread regarding Di Stefano to rate him more accurately. Honesty I also think he could be overrated to have achieved any phenomenal class as proverbial. I'm never get specially amazed with his playing scenes but I watched he played in only one full-match. He is surely more complete than Gullit in offensive tasks. In particular, he is greater in organizing, passing and even scoring by foot. Di Stefano's technique could be one of the best as well.
Maradona 82/83 had 23 goals(2 pen)+18 assists in 35 appearances For a player who was often played out wide as a winger or attacking midfielder that is phenomenal production All the while being a prolific dribbler,a proflic scorer of solo goals and prolific creator of chances No way on earth maradona 84/85 was the greatest season ever Scoring may not be his primary function but it is still a very important one for an offensive minded player He scored 9 non penalty goals in Serie A 84/85(including 1 hand of God vs lazio) 4 of those goals came against lazio that finished 15th place (in a 16 team league) Lazio won only 2 games and finished with 15 points One of the lowest tallies in Italian top flight history He also scored once against ascoli(finished 14th place) Out of his 9 non penalty league goals 56% came against relegated teams That leaves only 5 league goals all season against teams not relegated to serie B Even a defender as passarella could do that Passarella a defender/sweeper scored 3 non penalty Serie A goals against non relegated teams in 1984/85 Maradona 84/85 a forward/AM scored 5 non penalty league goals against non relegated teams in 1984/85 Not only that but passarella played 4 less Serie A matches as maradona 84/85 Is it impossible to conceive that passarella a defender could've perhaps scored 1 more goal if he played 4 more matches One of those missesd matches was a 1-1 draw with ascoli(relegated side) It's likely Passarella 84/85 a defender could conceivably have 4 non penalty goals vs non relegated sides with the same minutes as maradona 1 less goal than Diego maradona There are too many holes for this campaign to be considered anywhere near the best ever Napoli finished 8th Maradona was trophyless Even if serie A 84/85 had one of the lowest goal averages ever(2.1 per match) Maradona was nowhere near to being a phenomenonal finisher Only against relegated teams Against the rest he was matched by Passarella Maradona 84/85 provided all time dribbling runs and all time playmaking Ok But so did maradona 82/83 So did George best 67/68(also with great wing play and 20+ league goals) So did Messi every single prime season I dont understand what is unique or unprecedented about maradona 84/85 His production against top teams? His scoring? Trophies? No His dribbling runs or playmaking? Maradona was already doing that for Boca and Barcelona with considerably more open play goals and assists
I need assists stats of Maradona's 1984 1985 season to decide as scoring stats is just 30 - 40 % taken into account for advanced midfielder role. Anyway he tend to have been overrated based on stats you provide. I reiterate Maradona's season at Barcelona could not be rated among the best ever due to short longevity.
Ascoli - Napoli, 1 (Penzo, rebound) Napoli - Roma, 1 (Bertoni) Napoli - Lazio, 1 (Own Goal) Milan - Napoli, 1 (Own Goal) Napoli - Atalanta, 1 (Bertoni) Cremonese - Napoli, 1 (Bertoni) Roma - Napoli, 1 (Bertoni) Napoli - Fiorentina, 1 (Caffarelli) This is data from bada Bing 5 strict assists+3 wide It seems to also be corroborated by this https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Armando_Maradona Maradona 84/85 had against relegated sides(Lazio,ascoli and cremonese) 3 non penalty goals+1 hand ball goal +1 assist in 6 matches Against the rest of the league 5 non penalty goals+6 assists in 24 matches None of his non penalty goals or wide assists came against top 4 teams https://www.transfermarkt.com/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/saison/1984 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_Serie_A I reiterate also that in 84/85 cremonese and lazio were the 2nd and 3rd worst performing sides in Serie A history https://www.football-italia.net/113097/which-records-could-benevento-break Only catania 1983/84 earned less points (12) To be fair being the prolific dribbler that he was at this stage of his career he did force alot of defensive mistakes that resulted in penalties and set piece chances Great comp even if the comp maker took some liberties including dribbling runs from 1985/86(vs Juventus) Is it more different though from what eden hazard did in his last season for Chelsea Like a completely different tier Granted hazard did not have Maradonas ability from freekicks,his ability to perform elaborate ball controls or his ability to consistently pull off deep playmaker passes He did however score 15 league goals+17 assists as a creative attacker Was as reliable from the spot Open play goals against Manchester United,Manchester city,Liverpool and arsenal He did this playing for a Chelsea side that finished 6th in the EPL All the while being a prolific generational dribbler and creator of chances To me they look to be roughly in the same ball park If maradona 84/85 was French, Italian or German and eligible for the ballon dor would he clinch it Realistically Maradona 84/85 was just doing maradona things Things the world was already accustomed to from his time in Argentina and spain Difference is he was not affecting big games yet the way he did in his mid to late 20s He was not winning trophies either The greatest season ever has to culminate with a trophy and/or phenomenal production against other title contenders Maradona 84/85 had neither I would say supreme world class Perhaps Phenomenon is really a push too far
I agree Maradona's 1984 - 1985 season might not be great enough as the best performer in a single domestic season but I insist he is deserved phenomenon-class for his dribbling and created a number of chances to his teammates. I disagree on your criteria that phenomenal performance needs trophy or superb productivity. Maradona is not a pure forward and football is a composition between positions.
I dont understand which part you are not getting Maradona 84/85 was most likely not dribbling any more than he did for Barcelona,Boca or Argentinos juniors He was just now doing it in a more prestigious league,with all time low goal averages and directly competing against superstars If maradona 84/85 Is a phenomenon for his technique,dribbling runs and playmaking So is maradona 1981,1980 And even 82/83(even if you refuse to credit him for lack of games) Is Maradona being rated a phenomenon solely on the basis of combining great playmaking with all time dribbling runs? What do you say about Messi 2017/18 A 50 goal campaign and one of the top 3 playmakers in the world with KDB and Neymar One of the most prolific dribblers in the world The highest la liga rating in history by Dbs calcio For you this is only good enough to warrant a supreme world class rating There is a inconsistency worth addressing Maradona 84/85 seems to get this magical bonus and upgrade As a supreme playmaker he doesn't even have to provide 1 assist against top 4 Serie A sides Nor does he score a goal from open play Instead 56% of his entire non pen goal+assist production comes against sides relegated to Serie B 4 of his 9 non penalty league goals came against Lazio and cremonese 2 of the worst teams in Italian top flight history Does this register with You? IMO It doesn't seem appropriate that a phenomenon league performer not only fails to win a title but fails to register anything meaningful against title contenders Vegan10 Probably the most knowledgeable poster on maradona did say Zico 83/84 was one of the top debut seasons of the 1980s decade Alongside maradona 84/85 (and others I can't recall at this time) That is to say however impressive Maradona was he Wasnt uniquely impressive Technically he was perhaps but that is not everything when evaluating a players performance Let's agree to disagree I just think loads of pre 2006 world cup era players seem to get a magical bonus for doing things not quantifiable in stats Maradona is one of them Baggio is another one of them A phenomenon for scoring 4 open play goals in 3 games against Bulgaria,Nigeria and Spain Not withstanding the fact this was a complete outlier in his career Anyways I'll stop myself from going on another one of my loosely related tangents
@Dearman You rated George best as supreme world class for 69/70 domestic campaign(league+FA cup) 21 goals in 45 appearances Respectable? His most famous performance (probably ever)took place in this season He scored 6 open play goals in a 8-2 fifth round FA cup rout vs Northampton FC https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ster-united-six-goals-northampton-fa-cup-1970 Northampton FC did not play in the first division of English football Nor the second Nor the third They in fact finished 14th place in the fourth division of English football That is to say 29% of George bests goals in 69/70 came against what was in all likelihood one of the worst professional teams in the entire world http://www.rsssf.com/engpaul/FLA/1969-70.html The English division 1 was at the time a 22 team league George best scored 15 goals in 37 league games playing for a Manchester United team that finished 8th place Respectable? 1 goal against Sunderland(21st place) 2 goals against leeds(2nd place) 3 goals against Sheffield Wednesday(22nd place) 1 goal against arsenal (12th place) 2 goals against West ham (17th place) 1 goal against Southampton (19th place) 1 goal against Ipswich town (18th place) 1 goal against Nottingham forest (15th place) 2 goals vs Burnley (14th place) 2 goals vs 16th place West Bromwich Albion (scored the the 6th and 7th goal in a 7-0 rout) http://www.rsssf.com/engpaul/FLA/1969-70.html https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969–70_Manchester_United_F.C._season For reference Arjen robben A generational dribbler and world class scoring WF with production against top teams in 2013 and 2014 only receives a ordinary world class rating? I have reservations about phenomenon class Euesbio 1967/68 also How does a 'attacking midfielder' with 42 goals in 24 league appearances:1.75 goals per game One of the highest goal averages in the history of football Only score 6 goals in 9 European cup matches 4 of those goals coming against Glentoran(?) and vasas Budapest http://www.rsssf.com/players/eusebio-in-ec.html Glentoran is such an obscure outfit they are now a semi professional team in Ireland Surely eusebio should've completely obliterated these sides