World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is what Platini can show, in a brief breakdown:

    Three league titles, three times runners-up in a career spanning fifteen years (has also one 2nd division title in those fifteen years). He played for the richest or 2nd richest team of the league in 7 seasons (I think).

    He has however three continental finals (two wins, in which he had winning goals, assists). On top of this he lost three times against the eventual finalist or winner (1980, 1981, 1986 - all in the quarter finals), and had an open play assist or goal in two of them (pk goal in the other). Maradona in his earlier exits did not lose against later finalists or winners.

    I think it are his continental achievements, individual performances and what he added to Juventus there what is truly (imho) a level above. Take it with a pinch of salt but his GoalImpact rating is a fair bit higher (and higher than most/all other players of his era and generation).

    @schwuppe
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  2. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Exactly, very well put.


    Which games do you have in mind? I dont know much about his career in France, but I remember French poster here claiming he played already on his Juventus' level for a few seasons.

    Can't add much to the rest, agree with all of it.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In particular the games against PSV and against Hamburg.
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    6:0 vs PSV and 5:0 vs HSV. Wow... :eek:
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, it has been since said/suggested neither opponent was at their best for various reasons (this remains one of the biggest wins/losses for all the teams involved), and St Etienne was well possibly at their physical best (per Johnny Rep his comments), but at least Platini can show this and capitalized from weaknesses (not everyone does when it occurs). I'm sure Maradona and some other folks also met below-strength opponents at times.

    Italian teams were less likely than French teams to push for a big blowout, but Platini has a good amount of impressive and strong European performances for Juventus and St Etienne I think (against strong to very strong opponents).

    (haven't forgotten the other question)
     
  6. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    #1131 benficafan3, Feb 1, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019

    FYI, this is why Guardola will never reach the heights you think he can.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ma...drid/2019/02/01/5c549859e5fdead3798b4584.html

    “Juventus, Bayern Munich and Barcelona, they have been the best three," he confirmed. “

    Referring to the best clubs in the past decade.

    He probably cries every night knowing his “Greatest Club of All Time” Barca team couldn’t even nab back to back CL titles, let alone three in a row like Real Madrid.

    One of his wins being absolutely tainted and one of the biggest disgraces in the competition’s history. Just ask Drogba.

    True champions do their best to abide by reality and objectivity. Guardiola is clearly a loser with a very fragile ego. He will never again reach the fabricated heights he did at Barcelona. Where’s he gunna find another Messi? Good luck.

    Quote me. What an absolutely pathetic quote and opinion on his part.
     
  7. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    The man is so dumb he doesn’t realize he’s downplaying the competition that really gave him the status he has.

    All because it no longer fits what he wants reality to be.

    A very, very ridiculous statement.
     
  8. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Back to back is a bit overrated. 2 CLs in 3 years is not that different. One of those times beating Madrid in the SF. So yeah, I am sure he is "crying". Also won 2 trebbles, which is something Madrid has never done in their whole history.

    CL is often decided by details. vs Inter in 09-10 Barca had a valid goal disallowed at the end that would have sent them through to the final. In 11-12 Messi had the go ahead goal vs Chelsea on his foot on a PK and hit the bar. Madrid won one CL final on PKs and in another were saved by a last second header from Ramos , much like Iniesta's last min goal vs Chelsea in 08-09. That's how tournaments are. Sometimes decided by details and not only by how good you are.
     
  9. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Sorry pal, but that is a ridiculous statement. Defending a title is most certainly not the same thing as winning a title twice in three years. Up until Real Madrid, no club was able to get back-to-back titles. That is extremely significant and relevant. Why? Because it is the most difficult competition in the sport's history. No competition, including the World Cup, has such an aggregate of the best global talent competing for a single title. And this is in the day of modern football.

    Simply said, you're wrong about that. It's extremely significant and why it took so long to be achieved.

    And no he won 1 treble. He won as many trebles as Luis Enrique.

    He's stating Juventus in the past decade are superior to Real Madrid. Yeah, he's crying. To state such a thing is a sense of delusion that can only be attributed to a child. Absolutely ludicrous statement.
     
  10. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Can literally be stated about any knockout competition, ever.
     
  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You're right, he won 1 treble. Another one he fell short in the CDR final in ET vs Madrid in a crazy stretch where they played 5 times in the space of a month. It was a CL + league double which is the next best thing.

    The back to back being overrated is my opinion. Not a question of right or wrong. But it's a fact that tournaments have an inherent flaw given its format. Wether you like it or not, some luck can play a big part. Leagues are inherently better a determining the best team in a competition. Unfortunately that's not possible across Europe at the moment. It's curious that over all these 10 seasons Madrid have won the league only twice. And only once with the CL. Madrid were definitely the best team 2 seasons ago, and still had some determining calls go their way in the CL. Last season not so much. They didn't look convincing.
     
  12. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Right. It's the nature of KO format.
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Winning the CL with the help of a match official who admitted to doing is a bit overrated?
    (Overbo confession)


    if winning back to back champions league trophies was overrated I wonder why no team had done so for 27 years

    Matter of fact Madrid winning consecutive times is an even greater achievement than Milan all those decades ago
    Back then there was no European Cup matches between November and March
    Today you have teams playing champions league football along with League football up until December
    then you have seven congested KO rounds starting in FEB coinciding with the business end of a season
    Not to mention some of the obscure teams Milan or even 1950s Madrid faced in KO rounds.
    Madrid played heavyweights like juventus,Bayern Munich,Atlético several times on route to those titles

    If it wasn’t already obvious when you are the title holder every big team is looking to knock you off your perch,the pressure increases and sometimes the hunger isn’t even there in the team to start with( to win all over again)
    Typical celito trying to undermine Madrid’s achievements with simplistic arguments

    #hater
     
  14. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't understand how he's a loser with very fragile ego when he's won like 7 of the 10 league campaigns he's been involved in.

    Is Mourinho a loser for winning just 1 league title and 0 UCL with Madrid? If Allegri a loser for losing 2 UCL finals? At least Allegri has won league titles. What about Diego Simeone?

    Isn't the meltdown Mourinho suffered at Chelsea and Man Utd better examples of fragile ego?

    Of course Guardiola is not going to find another Messi. No one will. Where can Zidane find another Ronaldo?

    I think we're talking past each other a bit. I don't know if he's going to reach the heights of Barcelona again. Probably not due to the Messi-factor. Doesn't mean he can't win another UCL ever again.

    His greatness also lies in other factors. Like I said, people appreciate the fact his team play some of the best football they've ever seen. Not my cup of tea, but a lot of people certainly enjoy it.

    When he wins the league, he also tends to dominate. Three in a row with Barcelona and three in a row with Bayern. Not to mention his title with City which broke all kinds of all-time record. It's the level of dominance that wins him a lot of plaudits.

    If we only take trophies into account, he's not that far off Sir Alex Ferguson, who is the GOAT in many people's books. If he stays in the game as long as SAF, he's well on track to overtake the Scot.

    My doubt over Guardiola is a different thing altogether, and it stems from his year in exile after he left Barcelona. Guardiola is obviously a very intense manager, according to everyone who worked with him. I don't think he's got the stamina, tenacity, and mentality to stay in this career long enough to actually contend with a GOAT like SAF. I think he's going to burn out before then.

    He's 48 now, and it would surprise me if he's still around in his 60s. He either needs to learn to take a back seat, the way SAF did, or turn away from club football and builds his legacy with national team instead. Otherwise, Guardiola is going to need at least another 10-15 years at top level club football, and I don't think he has it in him.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Okay, like Platini I don't claim to have a 100% perfect answer and I'll try to answer this brief. I'm not claiming full neutrality but at the same time some obvious folks have a negative inclination in their rankings and historiography towards 'Holland' as well.

    These two played in a largely comparable era (as opposed to the 1950s, with their five forwards) but of course not for the same teams and leagues. The most similar and comparable circumstances are the spells both had at Barcelona (1973 - 1978; 1982 - 1984), which was a comparably 'rough' league, and the continental displays.

    One thing Maradona maybe has over him, is his 'talent'. However, I also believe the various compilations misrepresent him in a flattering way whereas this is not true for Cruijff. There is no compilation around that shows him as a 'trickster' while it would be possible to do this (e.g. he had the 'Bergkamp Newcastle' flick against Austria, and a mid-air flick against Real Madrid that set up a chance for Rep a few months before, or 10 years later that solo goal against Liverpool). His shooting accuracy was clearly better as Maradona and was statistically in the regions of G. Muller. Cruijff genuinely played in multiple positions (including sweeper) but had also games where he wasn't doing much on the left wing other than attracting two/three opponents to him. Maradona was more relentless and possibly the better athlete.

    Maradona his spell at Barcelona was individually and collectively clearly less of a success, while at that time the new president (post-1979) had increased investments in players and also facilities (incl. the establishment of La Masia). Even Madrid paper 'Marca' rated Cruijff the best in four of his five seasons there. Statistically his presence as a player clearly mattered more (before & after; with & without him), and was with Kubala seen as Barca's best player of the 20th century. Maradona was maybe 'better' in the Copa del Rey, but Cruijff was only eligible for one season (which he won; check btw Barca's results against Real Madrid without their foreigners in the CdR).

    Obviously, like Platini, he was more of a continental success. When Cruijff retired only Gento had played in more European games than him, and this includes some years he was ineligible to play (1973-74, 1978 - 1982). He played in four finals and four semi finals; and when he lost in earlier rounds against Real Madrid, or later finalists Bilbao and Tottenham, he scored open play goals against them.

    The leagues are the hardest to compare, but the ones who easily dismiss the Eredivisie should know it was #3 in the ranking when he returned 1981. Ajax was halfway the season 5 points behind the leader (2pts for a win), then he returned and Ajax was 5 points ahead of the rest at the end of the season. Crucially, he also tended to play very well against international opposition (funny trivial anecdote here: he played with Ajax a test game against the full Belgium NT before the 1982 World Cup; they were leading when he left the field).

    In a brief nutshell, he was domestic champion 10 times, 5 times runners-up, 4 times European finalist, 4 more times semi-finalist.

    What do you think?
     
  16. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It's obviously a great achievement. Although like I said, I don't find back to back that different than 2 in 3 years.

    Yes it's a simplistic argument based on actual facts as I've clearly explained. I don't have to make a convoluted point. That's the beauty of it.

    As far as hunger, it's a lot harder to keep hunger over a year long 38 game league than find the hunger to play the CL which is actually a short competition in comparison. Let's face it, for the big stacked teams, the group stage can is a pass. Unless you're unlucky, you rarely get a tough R16 draw and sometimes even get a QF gimme. Last couple of years it's true Madrid got tough draws. However one year they got APOEL in the QF. Just like Barca got Bayer Leverkusen when they were mid table.

    Last season Madrid were able to slack off in the off season and have a terrible first half of the year and get through the group stage only to find some form in the 2nd half of the season.

    And Zidane himself said he finds it harder and more fulfilling to win the league. So yeah ... #hater :rolleyes:
     
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    That's interesting. Is it based on data from the Dutch league?
    I've seen the Maradona Serie A stats, but nothing for Cruyff yet.

    Do you know of any notable/big game where he played as a sweeper?


    I actually did that recently. Hilarious how they got spanked in '74.

    That one (their career for Barca) isn't really close and I doubt anyone would suggest otherwise.

    From what I've seen Cruyff did really well in Europe - just as good as his usual self - while Maradona is kinda meh. Not saying he didn't have a few bright moments, just not as amazing as I would expect from a player of his caliber.

    The thing with Maradona is you could argue that he did face harder competition in Serie A than in Europe anyways.
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1143 PuckVanHeel, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
    Sorry for the four days delay;


    Yes I had that one in mind although it seemed very strange to me Maradona had over 110 shots (IIRC, in any case over 100) and only 7 non-penalty goals. But even if it is not that extreme, it is an indication.

    If was also thinking of tournament/World Cup statistics, where he was at his best after all, or the stats in some major club games that have been researched.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/be...ld-cup-1966-2010.1984730/page-2#post-27518333
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/be...ld-cup-1966-2010.1984730/page-4#post-31115343

    As I said above, Maradona had possibly the 'talent' factor going for him, but every piece of available evidence suggests he wasn't as accurate a shooter/finisher as either Platini or Cruijff (imho).


    The 1978 cup final for example.



    Larger version here:
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1qmfsq


    Yes it isn't close at all if you look at all the meaningful things. Basically the collective results were markedly less good (in the league and Europe) and he was demonstrably a lot less instrumental for those collective results. On top of this things as the combined goals + assists, the individual accolades (as flawed as those are).

    I have seen various folks suggesting otherwise, strangely (+ discussion too). Also Dearman his ranking suggests a closeness.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-historical-players-seasonal-rating-thread.2082082

    (His ratings of Pele and Messi there are not too far off I'd say, so I didn't argue with that)

    When the latin coalition, the asians and anglogerman alliance pops up, others get thrown under the bus.

    That is right, in particular towards the end of his stay. In 1987 less so (they won that league with a quite low points total & all the other top teams were either on the way down or on the way up) as in 1990.

    For clarity: Maradona was overall the best player of the 1980s and in an Argentina shirt he looked like the 'best ever', but I've serious objections to the idea he was the single best club/domestic player ever, as well as the (even more bizarre and ignorant) idea he was the ultimate 'underdog footballer' working against the odds (for a part discussed here and shown with comments). That is from many angles a really problematic idea.
     
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  19. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    LOL, what's the anglogerman alliance?
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1145 PuckVanHeel, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
    Even Havelange and Blatter knew this exists in football. You also see it in the (high brow, specialist) media. World Soccer and Batty were a prime example, no doubt (Batty made no secret of it, that speaks for him), and ESPN uses manipulative clown Honigstein as correspondent for 'Holland', and WS did something similar. Mad. Even Glanville was pulled into the Dassler orbit, by his own comments.
     
  21. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I don't see it, really. Anglo-English alliance, sure. But they have a tradition of undermining German football that goes back decades. I'm raised on anglo sources and it took me a long time to realize German achievements weren't all just lucky breaks. :laugh: I don't follow ESPN, though.

    Batty was a 50s traditionalist who trashed English football like that was the only time he got paid. The only time I remember him speaking favorably of the Germans was in 1972, and that romance didn't last long. Glanville seemed to never forgive Alf Ramsey for leading England to the WC. :laugh:

    The biggest critic of Dutch football for WS was Simon Kuper, though. Not sure if you count him as one of your own or an imposter, but dude was brutal at times.

    What did Havelange and Blatter say?
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I respectfully disagree with this observation and he also made really no secret of it, which I actually respect.

    Below series of articles are pretty indicative in that respect:

    "While he admired Dutch football in general, Eric was always fairly reserved in his praise of its practitioners."
    https://beyondthelastman.com/2014/03/10/eric-battys-world-xis-the-eighties-and-nineties/

    The whole series on that website underlines my point, really. Gerd Muller received more selections than Pele, and Der Kaiser was his favorite player, nuff said.

    No Italian player was included more than 5 times, and no Dutch player more than twice (if I'm not mistaken).


    Yes I see him as an imposter. Has written some utterly ridiculous books, which have been panned by many (international) historians and rightly so.

    Typical are comments on the 'goodreads' review site like this: "I should note that I have rooted for Amsterdam’s team as well as the Dutch National team since I saw Ajax win the Champions League Final when I was in Rotterdam. I learned that this book existed and had to have it. I read it with some trepidation because I didn’t want to hate the National Team I grew to love."

    So yes, Kuper is an imposter... with a British passport. He has called both England and Germany "morally superior" to Holland, literally, in football and in historical politics. Proves my point.

    Money and audience talks, in football.
     
  23. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Haha, I wouldn't think anyone rating Becks or The Bomber makes them part of an alliance. It has to be said those 11s were made in the context of "everyone sux, but here's the ones who suck the least". Batty's top 3 was ADS, Puskas and Pele, with everyone else far behind. Cruyff and his boys didn't exactly light Batty's world on fire, I admit, but he also expressed disappointment the Germs ended up being a shadow of their 72 team. Anyway, I'll keep this in mind when I reach the 70s issues again.

    I remember Kuper said the Dutch before Total Football were on par with Iceland and Albania... He also said the Eredivisie had no depth behind the big 3, the NT were traditionally a lot more reliant on a couple of key individuals and didn't have the depth of the big countries, and especially in the 80s couldn't put together an entire 11 of top guys. Opinions? How do you rate the 88 team outside their big 4 stars? Were guys like Van Tiggelen and Aerle top guys (for their position, ofc), or just an 80s Ooijer and Heitinga? Van Breukelen was highly rated by WS in the early 90s, at least.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1149 PuckVanHeel, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
    Yes I saw (and said) that too. Which makes it of course 'strange' Pele has not that many inclusions, fewer than a handful 'lesser' players, while almost all of his best years coincide with the ideal teams.


    I know the 'middle of the road' writers were generally more positive. In 1969 they were wondering whether he was already Europe's best (literally), had 6 goals and a handful assists in the EC campaign of course. They were still very positive december 1979 (as well as Glanville claiming he/they can't be replaced).


    That makes some sense since some 1990 World Cup previews (English tv, French tv) also discussed him in those terms. The domestic consensus is though he wasn't particularly talented, although he successfully replaced Shilton at Forest.

    Strange is a recent video like this where he suddenly becomes nicknamed 'The Reverend'.



    Really? I did a quick google search to be sure. This nickname is actually 'reserved' and most famous for an infamous drugs lord. No other famous person really has that nickname (I think).


    Of course we can discuss whether his "brutal" and "biggest critic" opinions had some merit, and what not, but I don't want to go there and it is off-tangent.

    I can also accept football criticism and broader criticism. Michel Houllebecq (famous French writer) wrote recently Holland is "a race [sic] of polyglot and opportunistic traders. Holland does not exist as a country, it is at most a business." I can laugh about it and it has a core of truth.

    For Kuper there is an array of things I don't like. His book that is full of errors (no exaggeration) and panned by international historians makes people almost dislike the country, as visible on the goodreads website. He's also living for over 15 years in Paris and still presents himself as an expert of the country's undercurrents in high brow media. This is sometimes also visible in his (overly) positive pieces on the undercurrents. So maybe 'imposter' is an apt word here, indeed.

    We both said an observed there is 'Americanocentrism' on the internet (but also media as a whole, the company links, or the governance of the sport), despite rivalry between Argentina and Brazil. Understandably some ('on the inside') see the differences more while others perceive commonalities (including you and me).

    To me it is a wrong kind of exceptionalism to think/observe this doesn't exist elsewhere, and among other parts of the football mainstream/'cartel'. We can disagree on this, that is fine, but to me those dynamics (at multiple levels) are not exclusive to one continent.

    I might be wrong here but it also seems to me Scandinavia has always been close(r) to those two countries, both in football (Norway in the 1980s mostly saw English and German football on tv, I know that; obsession in Sweden with 4-4-2, as noted in this article), linguistically and culturally. You - and this is merely trivial - have been using a Thomas Muller avatar after all.

    Hope you get the gist of this.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Zidane can say what he likes.i find the example of Zidane highly ironic. considering this was a player who actually won multiple league titles with juventus
    He didn’t fare so well though in the champions league making 3 consecutive finals(losing every single time)
    I’m sure he did not experience the same level of fulfilment when as a player he was being defeated in several finals

    The CL is Europe’s premier competition,it is unfortunate you cannot digest this reality.
    As you have mentioned Madrid have faced many title winners /contenders en route to winning the champions league
    They did so in 13/14,16/17 and 17/18.
    Yes it is true 15/16 was a relatively easier route but not much easier than Barcelona’s in 2008/09

    Overall you’d even have to admit that Barcelona have received the more favourable draws going back 10 years now
    Not to mention the active participation of refs in favour of Barcelona(and not just overbo)

    Referee Deniz Aytekin was subject to internal investigation by uefa and demotion for his role in aiding Barcelona beat PSG in 2017
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/barcelona-6-psg-1-reaction-referee-demotion-a7624266.html?amp

    There is also the inexplicable red card that was awarded to Robin van Persie in 2011 by the Swiss referee Massimo Busacca.
    Arsenal were actually ahead of Barcelona before RVPs red card(as PSG were before Suarezs penalty)
    Going back even further in 2005/06 there was shevas wrongly discounted goal in the SF (again just another example of “human error” I’m sure you would like to believe)
     

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