World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-greatest-individual-performer-in.html

    Recently I spent around 10 days to finish the list of greatest individual performer in a single competition, separating into domestic, international club and international country. As it is impossible to watch all games particularly the domestic league, I try to reference the media rating, scoring/assists stats and quality of goalscoring. The qualitative goalscoring is an average score from what I rate each scoring scenes. For rankings, I use comparison technique perspective as not all media ratings are available.

    Moreover, I would like to add more information/data if you have other than what have been specified in the thread, please let me know.

    Note that this is the last thread of WFHC project.
    The final project is introduction and highlight Video establishment which I plan to finish within September.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Very interesting lists, mostly agree with the choices but here are some contentions. Alfredo DiStefano needs to be mentioned somewhere in either the league or continental rankings (or both), a player whose dimension shades European club football to be overlooked. For the international ranking, “ Raymond Kopa and Matthias Sammer performances are too obscure to feature next to the others. Besides stats, an international performance must have the scope to carry all that is at play in these tournaments. I suggest Eusebio at WC66, Mario Kempes at WC78, Paolo Rossi at WC82, Romario and Gheorghe Hagi at WC94, James at WC14 and Eden Hazard at WC18 as stronger choices.
     
  3. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    In the old la liga rating thread by msioux, Di Stefano was rated in normal range from 1958 - 1959 to the 1961 - 1962 season. There is no rating before than that and the most interesting season will be the 1956 - 1957 La Liga season where he scored 31 goals. There is no video footage of him in that domestic season. In Continental, I watched all available goals he scored in European Cup, he rarely made a spectacular goal and most of them are unfavorable in level of difficulty. He also made few assists to teammates.

    Eusebio scored too many penalty goals and made only an assist in 1966 world cup. Kempes performance by opta stats is inferior to many others. Paolo Rossi played too bad in group stage and most of his goals are not created chance by himself. Romario in 1994 World Cup's duel won is only 35.5 %. The players whose the team were eliminated in quarter-final should not be considered as the significant lower number of participation.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Sammer was awful against Italy at euro 1996, should have been sent off in the final. He had only one really good game, that was against Croatia. Against England was so-so. To have him above Eusebio is laughable, but Dearman his pro German bias (like entire Thailand) is no news.
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    One suggestion is to rank them into each owns category of tournaments. A World Cup is not a Euro and so forth.

    Also, too much merit and preference is given to just two tournaments but the Copa America is glossed over and never mentioned. Why so ?

    The domestic season rankings seem too politically correct (should be renamed the best domestic seasons from the most hyped up players) in detriment of glossing over lesser renowned names that held their own against more famous names. More research is required.
     
  6. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I watched Euro 1996 actively and later then around 20 years, I still recognize he made very many awesome scenes. For Eusebio, he scored 4 penalty in knockout stage. Definitely he played very well aside from his goals.

    Why do you think entire Thailand is pro German biased ? I'm sure English players are the most biased spread the nation.
     
  7. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I think each international country tournament has its own standard and whatever they achieve could be ranked in the same list. Some players played for the team which was eliminated in semifinal round, is roughly equal to Euro finalist. For Copa America, it is often Brazil and Argentina did not sent their best team and standard of tournament is really not high. Anyway do you think who is the best performer in a Copa America single tournament ? I have considered Rivaldo in 1999 but I think his overall productivity against tournament standard is not enough.

    Domestically, it is supposedly media rating evidence is limited so there is even no available complete data to research more. Anyway, I think the selected players in the list also undeniably achieved legendary class performance.
     
  8. PMFmdf

    PMFmdf Member

    May 15, 2016
    Great list as usual. Now, as I have noticed, some of Messi´s season has been underrated with the justification of ´It´s Messi, he can do better than that´. I believe he had at least 2 more domestic seasons which should have their place in the top 10 . The parameters he has been judged has never been applied, not even to judge his contemporaries. His seasons as a complete offensive force (14/15 onwards) has been overlooked due to the lack of UCL trophy. Personally I would put his 17/18 domestic season and his 14/15 UCL in the top 10.
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #1059 Pipiolo, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    This would point to Alfredo DiStefano not belonging in a top 20 of all time, but your overall rankings place him well within the top ten. Not sure how you reconcile this, especially given his lack of World Cup pedigree.

    Eusebio still scored five brilliant goals from open play, plus there is a strong merit to scoring four out of four penalties in World Cups, players such as Krasimir Deyna, Zico, Michel Platini, Socrates, Diego Maradona, Dragan Stojkovic, Roberto Donadoni, Roberto Baggio, Henrik Larsson, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Luka Modric have all missed in fewer number of attempts.

    I have to disagree with relying solely on stats for Mario Kempes and Romario, they played superbly from start to finish in those tournaments with opponents adjusting their play for them. Paolo Rossi's infamous group stage makes the resurgence all the more incredible, as not all matches should be valued equally. Gheorge Hagi and James are the only two quarterfinal exits that I rank so highly, Hagi's is the only performance that approaches the individual dominance of Maradona's since 1986. James brought back the magic that went missing from the WC after 1994, he should be acclaimed and thanked for it. Ddin't Platini and Van Basten also played five matches at the Euro?

    For all the mythology around the international tournaments, where culture, identity, history, geography come into play, the performances by Kopa and Sammer do not have the scope to rank so highly.
     
  10. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The Copa Americas between the late 50s until 2011 did not feature the best sides from all participants, and the tournaments prior to the 50s did not include all Conmebol NTs. Still, there are several standout performances throughout its history that should be considered, the "carasucias" led by Omar Sivori in particular. Enzo Francescoli, the greatest CA player of the past 50 years, probably merits too.
     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Probably over the past 70 years the closest to full strength sides was the 1989 Copa America.

    The issue is how managers prioritized those events since many used them as a way to prepare for the World Cup, without giving as much emphasis on winning the competition.

    As for Rivaldo in 1999; I’d probably prefer Bebeto in 1989.

    Domestically if one of your main criteria’s is media ratings, then you are overlooking other less fancied names, which obtained high classifications to go along those names you mentioned.

    For example, in an era which you have both Maradona and Platini, the likes of Falcao, Krol and Junior run toe to toe with them.

    And about the media ratings: sometimes a player was judged differently at the end of the season. For example, Ruud Gullit was not the highest rated match per match player in 1987-88 but was then put into another category as nominee for best player in the season for different criterias.

    You then have Maradona in an outstanding year in 1980 in Argentinian football, but overlook some tremendous other Argentinian league players, like Horacio Hector Scotta, with 60 goals in 1975, but because his name is unfamiliar it’s overlooked.

    The same I presume for Zico, was he really better than Reinaldo ?

    How strong and comparable to top professional leagues was the league in Brazil back in Garrincha and Pelé’s era ? Brazilian Serie A did not even exist and mostly everything was isolated to regional tournaments.

    Current football has also changed significantly in world and Spanish football since the days of Cruijff or Shuster: no longer worries of being hacked down by someone like the “butcher of Bilbao” or a Camacho. Pitches are as even and smooth as butter and the richest sides can buy all the talent they want. Forthermore, the rules favor the talented players which didn’t exist in generations of the past. It is just hard to compare across eras.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I don’t remember Francescoli as a big tournament player for Uruguay. He missed most of the 1983 event until the finals and certainly was not good in 1987 (red carded in the final and nonfactor in semifinal) or 1989. Nothing special about his displays in 1995 either based off of memory.

    This is the typical case of team achievements camouflaging non-productive individual performances. Big name players that rarely performed well in international competitions for their country.

    Francescoli was more than once outplayed by his own teammates, such as Bengoechea or Ruben Sosa, but they are overlooked here.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1063 PuckVanHeel, Aug 20, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    Yes, apart from a record amount of dribbles in the tournament Eusebio scored four penalties (two of them drawn by himself IIRC). It was a legendary performance.
    Sammer gave away two penalties. One awful mistake against Italy and then one more in the final against Czech Republic, for which he should have been sent off as clear last defender (but of course, it didn't). Awesome scenes indeed. What did he do against England? Very little.

    Anyway, this doesn't deserve my attention. For your consistent knocking down of Dutch figures (including your rating of contemporary Beckenbauer > Cruijff as greater football personality) I don't rate your work.

    End all.
     
  14. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    Cruyff is clearly superior to Becknebauer as a player. For managerial performance, although I rate Cruyff better in the list of manager of all-time, I apply the different criteria in personality list which the trophy bonus become more important. The decisive point is I give presidential bonus to Beckenbauer. However, I think Zidane, Cruyff and Beckenbauer is in the similar level and the ranking result depend on personal criteria eventually.

    I watched full-match of Portugal VS England and I rate Bobby Moore as a man of the match at 7.5 point. In quarter finalist, it is not Eusebio's fault to play against the poor defensive team like North Korea but it is hard to rate him so high as well.
     
  15. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    Messi's 2014 - 2015 season is certainly one of the competitive seasons to achieve top ten. According to media rating, he obtained 7.82 as the highest rating even better than his 2011 - 2012 season. I can't judge if Messi in 2014 - 2015 will be better than Maradona in 1980 or Eusebio in 1968 as limitation of information. Anyway, I need to review again. Thanks.
     
  16. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I'm rather busy so just reply for these sentences. In database, I still rate Di Stefano in supreme world-class for some European club performances. As there are many other supreme world-class performers in a single season of international club, his performance is not necessary to be rated in top 10 and his consistency allows him to have a high score in overall club career.
     
  17. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I have to disagree, Enzo Francescoli was superb in CAs 87, 89, 93 and 95, he also played well in his appearances in the 83 edition. It's true that Ruben Sosa was better in CAs 89 and 93. The bigger point is that for Copa Americas, there are hardly any legends since the 60s, partially because the NTs did not bring their best teams, but also because even the biggest legends have not given similar performances to what they did at the WC. Besides Francescoli, among legends I can only list Claudio Caniggia, Gabriel Batistuta, Marco Etcheverry, Luis Suarez, Lionel Messi, Alexis Sanchez and Arturo Vidal who had greater CA performances than at the WC. It's almost that Francescoli wins by default.

    I would think if Cruyff is ranked ahead of Beckenbauer as both player and manager, he then has to be the greater personality in football history. I don't think Zidane is at a similar level to Cruyff or Beckenbauer as a player, and not same level to Cruyff as a manager either.
     
  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I have to agree, Lionel Messi for 2014-2015 is the greatest combo of league and continental performance in football history. It needs to be included at or near the top of the rankings.

    No worries, don’t mean to come across as critical as your project has not been done anywhere in football. It’s the disagreements that are more interesting to discuss.

    Also, why Michel Platini at Euro84 ranks higher than Johan Cruyff at WC74?

    By the way, based on your research I have now decided on Garrincha as second greatest WC performance, just ahead of Cruyff, Mario Kempes and Eusebio. It had always been difficult for me deciding among them.
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I was viewing Romania’s WC matches recently to refresh my memory and at first thought I had my reservations since I remember the inconsistent Hagi that was so criticized from teammates and coaches.

    What I revealed was what I expected: a brilliant educated left foot he had but tremendously inconsistent in his play, as he drifted in and out (or rather disappeared through games on a frequent basis).

    World Cup 1994 saw both sides to this brilliant talent: magical and decisive vs Colombia and Argentina but non-existent mostly in the other 3 matches.

    This was one of the main reasons he struggled in Spanish league football, his workrate was poor and his brilliance only surfaced once in a while in a 30 plus league game season.

    I don’t think his display at WC94 is that great. Great moments but shallow performances overall.
     
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  20. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I never saw the footage of Hector Scotta. Although he scored 60 goals his scoring ratio is just 1.00 that is not stumble at all. Importantly, I would like you to comment about Maradona's domestic performance in 1980. He scored 43 goals in 45 games and his style of play is spectacular enough. Do you think 1980 could be Maradona's second best season ? I see there is no rating for 1980 in Argentina Primera rating thread.

    Reinaldo scored 28 goals in 18 games in the 1977 Camponato Brasileiro is absolutely impressive but the format of competition is a round-robin league tournament that allows many teams from lower league to participate. He was not named as Brazilian footballer of the year in that season anyway.
     
  21. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Disagree yet again but this is no surprise. Gheorghe Hagi was superb against Sweden, a very strong side in that competition. He only needed to be average to beat an over-matched USA,no point to expend unnecessary energy. Against Switzerland he was brilliant in the first half, scoring a spectacular goal and setting up a couple of good opportunities. A mistake by the referee literally turned the game, from a goal scoring chance for Romania to a goal by Switzerland despite a Swiss midfielder handling the ball with both hands.

    You criticize Hag's WC94i and Ruud Gullit's phenomenal 87-88 season but laud Hector Scotta for 1975, a very strange way to critique football performance. I guess you also rate Martin Palermo as a superior performer to Roman Riquelme for Boca Juniors. I don't think you are qualified to offer opinions for an important research project as this one.
     
  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I never criticized Gullit that season so read between the lines properly unless you have a reading comprehension problem.


    That’s because it does not suit your views.
     
  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    The 1980 campaign was as close to spectacular as any Argentinian player of that time could perform. He rarely had bad games and I have most of his match ratings of all that season and many hit high marks.

    He was the pivot of the team but the manager used him more as a forward that season. Most of his goals were individually produced from his own actions. Even in the club friendlies he’s nothing short from spectacular.

    You have his 1984-85 campaign as his best. There too he rarely has bad games or average performances. It is a very consistent season in a debut for a new team in the most defensive league (but was it his best ?). The ratings would suggest so but maybe some it had to do with the novelty of seeing the artist for the first time on their soil.

    There are a few other options: 1979 and 1987-88.
    The one in 1979 runs along similar lines of 1980, but in less games. The campaign in 1987-88 is underrated because the team blew their lead and lost the title at the end with controversy involved. Again, in a 30 game league season, few games were an off day for him. It’s also accomplished at the time that the league is probably the strongest in the world and unquestionably the most difficult to score in. He’s also a renowned figure which defenders have figured him out but still can’t suppress him entirely. There is no team success but nevertheless the individual performances are spectacular at times. There was also a real challenging dual here with A.C. Milan and Ruud Gullit.
     
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  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Let me just add that he was doing it for also a small market team, which has double the merit. On the other hand he had less pressure to win as opposed to 1981 when he assumed the responsibility at Boca Juniors.
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Anyway, all those great names you mentioned in your domestic top list have something in common: the majority of those players were on teams that were considered the most talented sides (or joint top) in their leagues or the favorites to win it all. The weakest being Argentinos Juniors and possibly Napoli.
     

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