World Cup vs Champions League

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by West Coast Futbol, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And I'm not the serious one!:rolleyes:...
     
  2. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Thanks for your admission of defeat.
     
  3. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Fernando Redondo.
     
  4. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The main reason why the World Cup is several steps above the CL in quality of play is very simple.

    Teams in the CL, although displaying 'the best players of the world', don't do it with the tactical and stylistic coherence that the NTs in a World Cup do.

    That's why I posted that Barça x Brazil clip above: although a firendly, you can clearly see how the game of players who come from the same craddle flow way more naturally than of teams artificially mounted 'from top to bottom'.

    Players in a WC (even from minow countries) 'speak' the same footbalistic language, share a school, a style of play - their players may be spread all over the world, but they know how each other plays.

    In CL - this one a real parade of expensive but totally unrelated players - we'll find on the other hand a hodgepodge of styles that hardly gets arranged in a coherent way.

    Since they aleatorilly buy their great players from different countries (& due to internal competition they grab who they can, and not who they should), their tactical plans become inextricable puzzles.

    Real great teams amidst such a big quantity of rich clubs are fruit of luck & the solitary effort of their stars, and you can count them in the fingers of one hand since they started indiscriminately buying, buying & buying in the early 80's.

    Right now we have two or three that deserve respect (MU, Barça, Inter) & still they're quite irregular for the amount of money invested in them: as soon as they take the shape of great teams, they get dissolved due to the market's whims.

    Whereas the World Cup is a real footballistic war, the CL is a well-marketed firework show.:cool:
     
  5. Fried

    Fried New Member

    Mar 28, 2009
    Kridjijimbé
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    :D On first above quote, who's everybody? China or India fans? How could a player at least be capped without being seen?
    Would start with Fausto dos Santos, Domingos da Guia and Leônidas da Silva. Stabille, Monti and company came to mind as well, and Olympic Sky Blue (a remarkable newcomer was Mascheroni). But if not asked won't continue.
     
  6. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    If you don't cut it out with the borderline trolling you're not going to be posting here.
     
  7. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    But was Redondo really THAT unknown prior to the World Cup? Its not like Argentina's a minnow whose players are unknown.
     
  8. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The main reason why the World Cup is several steps above the CL in quality of play is very simple.

    Teams in the CL, although displaying 'the best players of the world', don't do it with the tactical and stylistic coherence that the NTs in a World Cup do.

    That's why I posted that Barça x Brazil clip above: although a firendly, you can clearly see how the game of players who come from the same craddle flow way more naturally than of teams artificially mounted 'from top to bottom'.

    Players in a WC (even from minow countries) 'speak' the same footbalistic language, share a school, a style of play - their players may be spread all over the world, but they know how each other plays.

    In CL - this one a real parade of expensive but totally unrelated players - we'll find on the other hand a hodgepodge of styles that hardly gets arranged in a coherent way.

    Since they aleatorilly buy their great players from different countries (& due to internal competition they grab who they can, and not who they should), their tactical plans become inextricable puzzles.

    Real great teams amidst such a big quantity of rich clubs are fruit of luck & the solitary effort of their stars, and you can count them in the fingers of one hand since they started indiscriminately buying, buying & buying in the early 80's.

    Right now we have two or three that deserve respect (MU, Barça, Inter) & still they're quite irregular for the amount of money invested in them: as soon as they take the shape of great teams, they get dissolved due to the market's whims.

    Whereas the World Cup is a real footballistic war, the CL is a well-marketed firework show.:cool:
     
  9. Cool Rob

    Cool Rob Member

    Sep 26, 2002
    Chicago USA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with this. I orginally was going with the CL, simply becuase those teams have more time to practice and gell. You have to consider the fact that the are 76 teams that start out in the competition, and 32 that make it to the group stage. Usually, when I think of the CL I only think of the great teams. Not to be a snob, but I really don't want to watch most of those 76 teams. Sorry. And then you have to consider that many of the two-legged games are cagey, boring affairs, Liverpool-Chelsea(!!) notwithstanding.
     
  10. erick

    erick Member

    Dec 6, 2007
    Bama Nation
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    :D I bet that was easy huh? :)
     
  11. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    You do not need to consider the teams in the qualification rounds for the CL because no-one is doing likewise for the WC qualifying. It also hurts the WC more than the CL according to the criteria we are using.
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I'm not saying you do but you (and others) weren't making it clear what you were comparing, thus rendering everything you were posting irrelevant.
     
  13. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    The opening post referred to tournament and the vasy majority of the discussion has obviously involved final tournament play as opposed to qualifying.
     
  14. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    HS, are you serious? :eek:
     
  15. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    World Cup = best; better players = Better Futbol 58, 21%

    World Cup = best; top players can play together quickly 20,90%

    CL = best;A good team w/some great players (…) 16, 42

    CL is best;it is where the money is (…) 4,48%

    ________________________________________________________
    PS: You mean ‘we’, right? :cool:
     
  16. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Numerous ignored the clear criteria set.
     
  17. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You arbitrarilly edit my post, disHStly enhancing just the 2 first of its 9 paragraphs - without even commenting them (as if I had expressed an opinion just out of thin air) - thereby avoiding discussion of the rest of the argument, and I'm the one who's not 'serious'?...

    My turn to ask now: are you serious, bud?:mad:...
     
  18. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the risk of sounding like Teso, I'll just say that you're clearly wrong.

    National teams are not more organized and coherent than their club counterparts in terms of tactics.

    And, the only reason you need to justify this: club teams train together 10x more than national teams.
     
  19. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The poll is a joke, b/c of the American voters. :D
     
  20. Cool Rob

    Cool Rob Member

    Sep 26, 2002
    Chicago USA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't get the poll.
    While I enjoy the WC more, the Champions League has a monopoly on the best players, simply due to economics. If the number of teams were equal, pound for pound the CL is theoretically better. Lots of players like Giggs and Sheva won't be in the WC. It's hard to argue otherwise when you have teams finishing at the bottom of a WC group full of players no Champions League team will ever touch.

    Nick Hornby had a great line about it in (annoyingly and self-consciously American-highbrow titled) The Thinking Fan's Guide to the World Cup:

    "The globalization of the transfer market was beginning to rob international football of much of its point. In the old days, you used to look at the best players playing in the club teams and think, What would they be like if they played together? And the answer was that they looked like the national team. Now, Chelsea, Manchester United, Real Madrid, Juventus, the Milans and Barcelona have replaced the national sides as fantasy football teams. If your national team doesn't contain players from those clubs, it's because those clubs don't want them, which means your national team is no good."
     
  21. kingkong1

    kingkong1 New Member

    Nov 12, 2007
    Rio, Brazil
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    At this point I think that who runs the risk of sounding like you is Teso.:p

    Both just burp empty statements without backing them up with any type of evidence.
    Congrats.

    At least once you tried to get serious.:)

    Uselessly though.

    Training 10x more is not enough if at any different season you have different rosters displaying a multinational salad of football styles - absolutely impossible to put together as real teams.

    It's like trying to put lions, snakes, hyenas & vultures in the same cage and pretend there will be harmony.

    Moreover teams (even the totally native ones) take many years to really become legends.

    If you're not used since the craddle to the way your teammates play you can buy the best players from all parts of the world & train Saturday, Sunday & holidays for 12 months that you won't get to the level of understanding of that team of kids that plays in your neighborhood square (even if they don't meet that much).;)
     
  22. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Not THAT unknown, but because he had played for Argentinos Juniors and after that I think he was still at Tenerife, I think he slipped under the radar a bit in 94.

    A lot of football fans had no idea who he was, and he even surprised many Argentines with how well he played. I don't think anybody mentioned him as an important player for Argentina before WC94, and yet he was outstanding, and in fact was one of the few bright spots for Argentina at WC94, especially after what happened to Diego.

    Of course if we go further back there are lots of examples of great players who appeared out of nowhere at the World Cup, but nowadays with so much TV and internet coverage of games all over the world and so many pundits previewing tournaments and researching every roster, I think it's more likely that if a player is outstanding he will not appear 'out of nowhere' to surprise everybody.
     
  23. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

    Apr 19, 2006
    Club:
    LD Alajuelense
    This may be the case in Europe but not necessarily the rest of the world. Teams like Mexico and Ecuador, for example (before their players began migrating to Europe in larger numbers) performed well in WCs precisely because they used primarily domestic-based squads, and their NT coaches had access to them. Ecuador in particular had no "stars" per se, and they qualified over several other South American teams with stars scattered over Europe.

    I'm not sure he was completely unknown, at least in Latin America. I still remember him being one considered of the up-and-coming stars leading up to the World Cup for his skill/vision around 1993, particularly as Argentina were playing badly. Of course the whole Maradona saga and Canigga were both hogging the spotlight at the time.
     
  24. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    True. He was known in South America, he had played some qualifiers plus he was a starter when Argentina won the Copa America in 93. That was the one when Mexico made the final, so probably he caught the attention of the Mexican fans as well. But outside Latin America I don't think Copa America got much exposure back then. I remember at the WC being at the stadium as we were watching the matches and people were surprised by his play and asking who he was. Maybe because Argentina had so many players that were better known at the time, he got lost a bit in the shuffle. (Granted, probably most of those were American fans who were not exactly the most knowledgeable.)
     
  25. Fried

    Fried New Member

    Mar 28, 2009
    Kridjijimbé
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Oops, in my previous post have listed a player named Stabille. Should be Stábile, sorry.

    Not questioning CL figures top stars in the world (in spite of Romário, for instance, not shining too long there by own choice, I guess), but seems to me there's a considerable difference between local and foreign players. If was to pick (as it was possible) a defender for my Brazilian team from CL, I'm confident he wouldn't be anyone. May be wrong, indeed, since I'm being surreal...
     

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