No, only in the Final I think but not over the tournament (I didn't even realise he was more up front in the Final until Kicker and rsssf listed it like that). I think he was generally a midfielder though.
If Maradona and Burruchaga were both midfielders, who was Argentina's second forward next to Valdano?
Maradona v.Korea ---> AM v.Italy ---> AM (borghi out of position) v.Bulgary ---> AM/SS (1st half /2nd half) v.Uruguay --->AM v.England ---> SS (El Grafico had him as AM) v.Belgium ---> SS v.W Germany ---> SS Boniek Smolarek + Dziekanowski were Poland's FWs, i think. Laudrup v.Scotland ---> FW v.Uruguay ---> SS v.W.Germany ---> FW v.Spain ---> FW El Grafico had him in a FWs trio: J.Olsen+Elkjaer+Laudrup Francescoli v.W.Germany ---> MF v.Denmark ---> MF (started as fw, but is expected to played back due to Bossio's sent off) v.Scotland ---> MF (started as fw, but is expected to played back due to Batista's sent off) v.Argentina ---> FW
Argentina's system according El Grafico for WC86 v. S.Korea it was a 4-4-2 v. Italy it was a 4-4-2 v. Bulgaria it was a 4-4-2 (1st half) and 5-3-2 (2nd half) v. Uruguay it was a 4-4-2 v. England for El Grafico a 4-5-1 (imo 5-3-2 with Enrique/Olarticoechea as WBs and Diego SS) v. Belgium for El Grafico a 4-4-2 (imo 5-3-2 with Enrique/Olarticoechea as WBs and Diego SS) v. W.Germany for El Grafico a 4-4-2 (imo same as before) In last two matches, El Grafico had Maradona as Valdano's partner in attack.
Yep, as we all know, Bilardo built that team around Maradona, planning placing in the same role he was playing in Napoli (trequartista). In some matches there were two forwards upfront him and in other matches only one (Valdano). I'm trying to said that the difference between an AM and SS role in Maradona's case had a slight margin (quote #228) btw, I quoted El Grafico notes (#230) to comparing Argentina's system with Kicker, RSSSF or another official source.
Would you say that we should classify him as a forward or midfielder? The way I interpret your posts I think maybe forward, but I thought I'd ask you directly (as there was some difference in formation with sometimes 2 strikers ahead of him). btw, I did watch this footage of Denmark-Spain earlier and noticed that Jesper Olsen was on the right side (not just when he unfortunately gave the ball to Butragueno for the goal) so it is possible that El Grafico were right to say that he, Elkjaer and Laudrup were the front 3 (Laudrup sets up a few chances from the inside left area but he did that anyway when playing as a SS/AM so hard to be sure): Olsen could have been on the right of midfield, but I had wondered why he was not on the left of midfield.
Although in the opening seconds the commentator does say "neither of the front two could get a touch on the ball" referring to Elkjaer and Laudrup.
I had trouble looking for Youtube clips By then, there were few teams using 3 front men in their line-ups (even one of them was a false winger). That would be the case for Denmark and Uruguay system in most matches (of course the dynamic and cast was far different) About Maradona, like i'm trying to show in #228 quote it was hard to said, if he was AM/SS, arguably 50-50% during WC, considering mainly if he had 2/1 FW upfront him.
Yeah, understood and it is hard to make a call on Maradona. Pasculli only played in two games I think according to the rsssf page so on percentages maybe forward is better for Maradona (same category as Laudrup rather than same as Platini). If he was behind Pasculli and Valdano but in a free role then it's arguable still whether he's an AM or FW I guess (Totti was borderline AM and FW in Roma's 2000/01 side for example, although equally Kaka could still be called an AM behind just Inzaghi for Milan ). Anyway, I guessed Gregoriak might go with your decision if you gave one but no problem if you just want to give the info which is very useful anyway. It could be true, as you indicated that he played further up in some games than others even when Pasculli didn't play (more as an AM vs England for example).
First formation is just dummy ... playing o real pitch is what we concern. There is a huge difference in POSITION and ROLE. If one looked at the Ajax and Holland 70's team then that made Cruijff a STRIKER? or Messi is also a main striker for Barca? I am amazed to some here that sometimes they stuck with formation to label a player position and role, and sometimes NOT. Like Platini playing just behind 2 FW (at Juve and France NT) the same way Zico did for Flamengo, but often some said Platini is a MF and Zico is a FW? So funny. - POSITION: Cruijff was positioned as center forward (most his career) but ROLE: as either spearhead center forward or main AM/playmaker for the teams. - POSITION: Maradona was someyimes played as SS, or side FW or center AM, ROLE: he was always a spearhead forward and/or Playmaker of the team (most attacking scheme start with his first touch)
I'm not sure if it's likely that I'll be able to find ones that you can't or that it would be easier in England than Peru, but if you do want me to have a look for some games you're interested in I don't mind doing so and I could post the links here if I find any.
Thanks mate! i don't why i couldn't see youtube clips in the morning. Excellent examples in modern Serie-A Trequartistas, who were bonderline cases as you said. Finally, for El Grafico, Maradona was MF. For me, it was a very close call. I'm trust on OPTA stats to final decision.
That's ok mate - let me know if there any you can't find anyway. OPTA had Maradona as a forward I believe, wheras PlanetWorldCup have him as a midfielder in 1986 but also in 1982 (but they seem to have most 'hybrid'/borderline cases as MF's including the ones we've been discussing for '86 Laudrup and Francescoli). I seem to recall Castrol also listed Maradona as a midfielder for '86 (there was a thread about their website on here too I remember).
1986 Number of Passes Defenders 279 Amoros (Fra) 267 Battiston (Fra) 258 N.Eder (Ger) 252 M.Olsen (Den) 249 Gerets (Bel) Midfielders 424 Tigana (Fra) 341 Alemao (Bra) 326 Burruchaga (Arg) 323 Platini (Fra) 297 Ceulemans (Bel) Forwards 198 Valdano (Arg) 198 Allofs (Ger) 153 Romero (Par) 145 Careca (Bra) 136 M.Laudrup (Den) Number of successful passes per minute (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 0.656 M.Olsen (Den) 0.583 Augenthaler (Ger) 0.580 Lamris (Mor) (Tun) 0.523 Kusnetzov (USSR) 0.511 Liegeon (Alg) Midfielders 0.667 Lerby (Den) 0.649 Dolmy (Tun) 0.661 Alemao (Bra) 0.607 Bertelsen (Den) 0.607 Vercruysse (Fra) Forwards 0.322 Romero (Par) 0.315 M.Laudrup (Den) 0.262 Valdano (Arg) 0.261 Allofs (Ger) 0.254 Careca (Bra) Passing accuracy (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 95.4 Busk (Den) (125/6) 94.6 Nielsen (Den) (105/6) 94.6 Branco (Bra) (176/10) 93.7 M.Olsen (Den) (236/16) 92.5 Julio Cesar (Bra) (148/12) Midfielders 94.1 Bertelsen (Den) (144/9) 93.0 Alemao (Bra) (317/24) 93.0 Elzo (Bra) (238/18) 92.4 F.van der Elst (Bel) (110/9) 91.4 Bouderbala (Tun) (148/14) Forwards 84.1 Careca (Bra) (122/23) 83.3 Valdano (Arg) (165/33) 82.1 Lineker (Eng) (87/19) 81.6 M.Laudrup (Den) (111/25) 81.4 Claesen (Bel) (96/22) Passing accuracy opp. half (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 90.6 Busk (Den) 87.5 Nielsen (Den) 86.6 Donaghy (N.Irl) 84.9 Josimar (Bra) 84.2 Edinho (Bra) Midfielders 91.1 Elzo (Bra) 88.9 Bertelsen (Den) 86.6 Reid (Eng) 85.1 Alemao (Bra) 83.8 Belloumi (Alg) 83.8 Socrates (Bra) Forwards 78.8 Careca (Bra) 76.9 Valdano (Arg) 76.9 M.Laudrup (Den) 73.8 Claesen (Bel) 73.6 Lineker (Eng) Duels won (%) (minimum 30 duels) Defenders 75.0 Sansom (Eng) (24/8) 72.9 Battiston (Fra) (35/13) 71.9 M.Olsen (Den) (23/9) 66.7 Bessonov (USSR) (22/11) 63.6 Quirarte (Mex) (28/16) Midfielders 64.9 Elzo (Bra) (37/20) 63.3 Briegel (Ger) (57/33) 62.6 Maradona (Arg) (122/73) 62.5 Komornicki (Pol) (20/12) 62.2 Labd (Mor) (23/14) Forwards 60.0 Müller (Bra) (18/12) 58.5 Romero (Par) (24/17) 54.8 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) (17/14) 50.0 Valentine (Can) (19/19) 50.0 Rummenigge (Ger) (24/24) Aerial duels won (%) Defenders (minimum 5 duels) 85.7 Kardos (Hun) (6/1) 83.3 Augenthaler (Ger) (5/1) 80.0 Kusnetzov (USSR) (4/1) 77.8 Grün (Bel) (7/2) 76.9 Ruggeri (Arg) (10/3) Midfielders (minimum 3 duels) 100 Briegel (Ger) (4/0) 100 Giusti (Arg) (3/0) 100 Vercauteren (Bel) (3/0) 100 Dziekanowski (Pol) (3/0) 100 Min Kook Cho (S.Kor) (3/0) Forwards (minimum 5 duels) 66.7 Hamilton (N.Irl) (8/4) 66.7 Müller (Bra) (4/2) 60.0 Rummenigge (Ger) (3/2) 57.1 Hateley (Eng) (4/3) 50.0 Krimau (Mor) (Tun) (4/4) 50.0 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) (5/5) Recoveries Defenders 48 Amoros (Fra) 39 Battiston (Fra) 31 N.Eder (Ger) 30 Julio Cesar (Bra) 30 Bossis (Fra) Midfielders 58 Tigana (Fra) 33 Alemao (Bra) 32 Batista (Arg) 32 Ceulemans (Bel) 30 R.Gallego (Spa) Forwards 28 Valdano (Arg) 16 Careca (Bra) 14 Romero (Par) 11 Sirakov (Bul) 11 Rummenigge (Ger) 11 Urban (Pol) Tackles won (%) Defenders (minimum 10 tackles) 100 Berthold (Ger) (15/0) 87.0 Battiston (Fra) (20/3) 85.7 Dimitrov (Bul) (18/3) 85.7 Busk (Den) (12/2) 83.3 Jakobs (Ger) (10/2) Midfielders (minimum 10 tackles) 93.3 Vervoot (Bel) (14/1) 90.9 Yakovenko (USSR) (10/1) 90.0 Aitken (Sco) (9/1) 88.9 Scifo (Bel) (16/2) 84.6 Maradona (Arg) (11/2) Forwards (minimum 5 tackles) 100 Allofs (Ger) (5/0) 90.0 Romero (Par) (9/1) 83.3 Belanov (USSR (5/1) 80.0 Stopyra (Fra) (4/1) 80.0 Vrablic (Can) (4/1) 80.0 Smolarek (Pol) (4/1) 80.0 Cabrera (Uru) (4/1) Clearances Defenders 59 Brown (Arg) 45 Bossis (Fra) 40 Quirarte (Mex) 39 Ruggeri (Arg) 39 Renquin (Bel) Midfielders 20 Vervoort (Bel) 16 Batista (Arg) 15 Briegel (Ger) 14 Elzo (Bra) 14 Labd (Mor) Forwards 6 Valdano (Arg) 6 Cabrera (Uru) 3 Madjer (Alg) 2 Veyt (Bel) 2 Sirakov (Bul) 2 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 2 Allofs (Ger) 2 Esterhazy (Hun) 2 Amaiesh (Iraq) 2 Clarke (N.Irl) 2 Hamilton (N.Irl) 2 Penney (N.Irl) 2 Stewart (N.Irl) 2 Romero (Par) 2 Ramos (Uru) Blocks Defenders 8 Ruggeri (Arg) 7 Brown (Arg) 7 Julio Cesar (Bra) 7 Fenwick (Eng) 6 Battiston (Fra) 6 Gerets (Bel) 6 Grün (Bel) 6 El Byaz (Mor) Midfielders 6 R.Gallego (Spa) 5 Batista (Arg) 4 Tigana (Fra) 4 Vervoort (Bel) 3 Giusti (Arg) 3 Socrates (Bra) 3 Lerby (Den) 3 Khairi (Mor) Forwards 3 Stopyra (Fra) 2 Valdano (Arg) 2 Galderisi (Ita) 2 Romero (Par) 2 Urban (Pol) 2 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) 2 Carbera (Uru) 2 Belanov (USSR) Interceptions Defenders 22 Amoros (Fra) 22 Jakobs (Ger) 20 N.Eder (Ger) 19 Cuciuffo (Arg) 18 Battiston (Fra) Midfielders 23 Tigana (Fra) 22 Alemao (Bra) 19 Matthäus (Ger) 18 Elzo (Bra) 15 Burruchaga (Arg) 15 Vervoort (Bel) Forwards 10 Valdano (Arg) 7 Beardsley (Eng) 6 Butragueno (Spa) 6 Sirakov (Bul) 5 Claesen (Bel) 5 Stopyra (Fra) 5 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) Goals Defenders 2 Quirarte (Mex) 2 Josimar (Bra) 1 Edinho (Bra) 1 Brown (Arg) 1 Amoros (Fra) 1 Ruggeri (Arg) 1 Servin (Mex) 1 Demol (Bel) 1 Brehme (Ger) 1 Goikoetxea (Spa) Midfielders 5 Maradona (Arg) 3 Ceulemans (Bel) 3 J.Olsen (Den) 2 Burruchaga (Arg) 2 Platini (Fra) 2 Scifo (Bel) 2 Socrates (Bra) 2 Khairi (Mor) 2 Caldere (Spa) 2 Yaremchuk (USSR) Forwards 6 Lineker (Eng) 5 Careca (Bra) 5 Butragueno (Spa) 4 Valdano (Arg) 4 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 4 Altobelli (Ita) 4 Belanov (USSR) Shooting accuracy (minimum 5 shots) Defenders 60.0 Servin (Mex) (3/2) 57.1 Berthold (Ger) (4/3) 50.0 Branco (Bra) (3/3) 42.9 Allawi (Iraq) (3/4) 42.9 Cabrini (Ita) (3/4) Midfielders 80.0 Aguirre (Mex) (4/1) 71.4 Zavarov (USSR) (5/2) 66.7 Negrete (Mex) (4/2) 59.1 Maradona (Arg) (13/9) 57.1 Matthäus (Ger) (8/6) 57.1 Magath (Ger) (4/3) 57.1 Boy (Mex) (4/3) 57.1 Khairi (Mor) (4/3) Forwards 88.9 Butragueno (Spa) (8/1) 83.3 Lineker (Eng) (10/2) 71.4 Altobelli (Ita) (5/2) 71.4 H.Sanchez (Mex) (5/2) 60.0 M.Laudrup (Den) (3/2) 60.0 Beardsley (Eng) (3/2) Successful crosses (minimum 5 crosses) Defenders 66.7 Zdravkov (Bul) (4/2) 60.0 Wilson (Can) (3/2) 50.0 Nicol (Sco) (5/5) 40.0 Josimar (Bra) (2/3) 40.0 Boaro (Bra) (2/3) 40.0 Al Roubai (2/3) 40.0 Worthington (N.Irl) (2/3) 40.0 Larionov (USSR) (2/3) Midfielders 66.7 Di Gennaro (Ita) (4/2) 60.0 Fernandez (Fra) (3/2) 55.6 Hoddle (Eng) (10/8) 50.0 Komornicki (Pol) (3/3) 50.0 Magalhaes (Por) (4/4) Forwards 80.0 Stewart (N.Irl) (4/1) 46.7 Careca (Bra) (7/8) 40.0 Butragueno (Spa) (2/3) 40.0 Stopyra (Fra) (2/3) 40.0 Belanov (USSR) (4/6) Assists Defenders 2 Cuciuffo (Arg) 2 Demol (Bel) 1 Servin (Mex) 1 Gerets (Bel) 1 Petrov (Bul) 1 Zdravkov (Bul) 1 G.Stevens (Eng) 1 Ayache (Fra) 1 Augenthaler (Ger) 1 Berthold (Ger) 1 Camacho (Spa) Midfielders 5 Maradona (Arg) 3 Zavarov (USSR) 2 Burruchaga (Arg) 2 Negrete (Mex) 2 Enrique (Arg) 2 Ceulemans (Bel) 2 Vercauteren (Bel) 2 Alemao (Bra) 2 Arnesen (Den) 2 Hodge (Eng) 2 Di Gennaro (Ita) 2 Kwang Rae Cho (S.Kor) 2 Soon Ho Choi (S.Kor) Forwards 4 Belanov (USSR) 3 Rocheteau (Fra) 2 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 2 Allofs (Ger) 2 Eloy (Spa) Chances created Defenders 10 Amoros (Fra) 8 Grün (Bel) 8 N.Eder (Ger) 7 Garre (Arg) 7 Lamris (Mor) Midfielders 27 Maradona (Arg) 24 Giresse (Fra) 19 Platini (Fra) 16 Matthäus (Ger) 15 Burruchaga (Arg) 15 Vercauteren (Bel) Forwards 23 Allofs (Ger) 18 Careca (Bra) 12 Krimau (Mor) 11 M.Laudrup (Den) 11 Belanov (USSR) Chances created per xy minutes Defenders 36.0 Augenthaler (Ger) 49.0 Lamris (Mor) 50.0 Josimar (Bra) 51.4 Garre (Arg) 52.5 Przybys (Pol) Midfielders 17.8 Magalhaes (Por) 21.2 Giresse (Fra) 23.3 Maradona (Arg) 24.2 Vercruysse (Fra) 27.1 Karas (Pol) Forwards 20.8 Eloy (Spa) 26.7 Careca (Bra) 26.7 Allofs (Ger) 28.5 Belanov (USSR) 30.0 Krimau (Mor) (Tun) Fouls won Defenders 18 Amoros (Fra) 18 N.Eder (Ger) 14 K.Förster (Ger) 12 Berthold (Ger) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) Midfielders 53 Maradona (Arg) 27 Francescoli (Uru) 21 Matthäus (Ger) 20 Briegel (Ger) 19 Negrete (Mex) Forwards 22 Galderisi (Ita) 22 H.Sanchez (Mex) 18 Allofs (Ger) 16 Valdano (Arg) 16 Stopyra (Fra) Fouls conceded Defenders 27 Amoros (Fra) (1/0) 17 Jakobs (Ger) (1/0) 16 Edinho (Bra) (1/0) 16 Grün (Bel) (1/0) 14 Ayache (Fra) (2/0) 14 Berthold (Ger) (0/1) Midfielders 22 Aguirre (Mex) (0/1) 19 Matthäus (Ger) (2/0) 18 Giusti (Arg) (1/0) 18 Scifo (Bel) (0/0) 14 Vercauteren (Bel) (0/0) 14 Hodge (Eng) (1/0) Forwards 12 Claesen (Bel) (1/0) 11 Valdano (Arg) (1/0) 11 H.Sanchez (Mex) (3/0) 10 Stopyra (Fra) (0/0) 10 Allofs (Ger) (1/0) 10 Galderisi (Ita) (0/0) Goalkeepers Minutes per goals conceded 480 Carlos (Bra) 240 Larios (Mex) 180 Rasmussen (Den) 180 Zaki (Mor) 150 Shilton (Eng) Saves 28 Pfaff (Bel) 25 Bats (Fra) 22 Schumacher (Ger) 21 Alvez (Uru) 19 Zubizareta (Spa) Saves per 90 minutes 8.1 Drid (Alg) 5.5 Lettieri (Can) 5.3 Jennings (N.Irl) 5.3 Alvez (Uru) 4.5 El Hadi (Alg) Shots saved % 94.4 Carlos (Bra) 87.5 Zaki (Mor) 86.2 Bats (Fra) 85.0 Shilton (Eng) 83.3 Drid (Alg) Catches 21 Larios (Mex) 17 Pfaff (Bel) 13 Zaki (Mor) 10 Pumpido (Arg) 8 Schumacher (Ger) 8 Bats (Fra) 8 Shilton (Eng) 8 Carlos (Bra) Punches 11 Bats (Fra) 9 Pfaff (Bel) 7 Schumacher (Ger) 6 Zaki (Mor) 5 Larios (Mex) 5 Yun Kyo Ho (S.Kor) Conclusion based on the following points system: 1st place 5 points 2nd place 4 pts 3rd place 3 pts 4th place 2 pts 5th place 1 pt Categories “Fouls won” and “Fouls conceded” did not receive points Top Defenders 23 Amoros (Fra) 18 Battiston (Fra) 16 Augenthaler (Ger) 13 N.Eder (Ger) 13 Busk (Den) 12 Josimar (Bra) 12 Berthold (Ger) 12 Brown (Arg) 12 M.Olsen (Den) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) 11 Servin (Mex) 9 Lamris (Mor) 9 Quirarte (Mex) 8 Nielsen (Den) 8 Demol (Bel) 8 Zdravkov (Bul) 7 Branco (Bra) 7 Cuciuffo (Arg) 7 Grün (Bel) 7 Julio Cesar (Bra) 6 Bossis (Fra) 6 Jakobs (Ger) 5 Kusnetzov (USSR) 5 Gerets (Bel) 5 Kardos (Hun) 5 Sansom (Eng) 4 Edinho (Bra) 4 Fenwick (Eng) 4 Garre (Arg) 4 Wilson (Can) 3 Nicol (Sco) 3 Petrov (Bul) 3 G.Stevens (Eng) 3 Ayache (Fra) 3 Camacho (Spa) 3 Donaghy (N.Irl) 3 Brehme (Ger) 3 Goikoetxea (Spa) 3 Dimitrov (Bul) Top Midfielders 24 Maradona (Arg) 24 Alemao (Bra) 18 Tigana (Fra) 18 Elzo (Bra) 14 Vervoort (Bel) 12 Briegel (Ger) 11 Ceulemans (Bel) 11 Bertelsen (Den) 11 Batista (Arg) 10 Burruchaga (Arg) 9 Vercauteren (Bel) 8 Zavarov (USSR) 8 Di Gennaro (Ita) 8 Giresse (Fra) 7 Platini (Fra) 7 Matthäus (Ger) 7 Magalhaes (Por) 6 Negrete (Mex) 6 Lerby (Den) 6 R.Gallego (Spa) 6 Giusti (Arg) 5 Dziekanowski (Pol) 5 Min Kook Cho (S.Kor) 5 Khairi (Mor) 5 Aguirre (Mex) 4 Fernandez (Fra) 4 Dolmy (Tun) 4 J.Olsen (Den) 4 Vercruysse (Fra) 4 Socrates (Bra) 4 Scifo (Bel) 4 Yakovenko (USSR) 4 Komornicki (Pol) 3 Reid (Eng) 3 Aitken (Sco) 3 Hoddle (Eng) 3 Hodge (Eng) 3 Arnesen (Den) 3 Kwang Rae Cho (S.Kor) 3 Soon Ho Choi (S.Kor) 3 Enrique (Arg) Top Forwards 37 Valdano (Arg) 31 Careca (Bra) 26 Allofs (Ger) 25 Romero (Par) 21 Belanov (USSR) 15 Butragueno (Spa) 14 M.Laudrup (Den) 13 Lineker (Eng) 11 Stopyra (Fra) 11 Cabrera (Uru) 10 Müller (Bra) 8 Eloy (Spa) 7 Rummenigge (Ger) 7 Hamilton (N.Irl) 7 Sirakov (Bul) 7 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 7 Stewart (N.Irl) 6 Urban (Pol) 5 Krimau (Tun) 5 Altobelli (Ita) 5 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) 5 Beardsley (Eng) 4 Galderisi (Ita) 4 Rocheteau (Fra) 4 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) 4 Claesen (Bel) 3 Madjer (Alg) 3 H.Sanchez (Mex) Goalkeepers 13 Bats (Fra) 13 Pfaff (Bel) 12 Zaki (Mor) 11 Carlos (Bra) 10 Larios (Mex) 7 Schumacher (Ger) 6 Drid (Alg) 4 Shilton (Eng) 4 Lettieri (Can) 3 Jennings (N.Irl) 3 Rasmussen (Den) Overall 37 Valdano (Arg) 31 Careca (Bra) 26 Allofs (Ger) 25 Romero (Par) 24 Maradona (Arg) 24 Alemao (Bra) 23 Amoros (Fra) 21 Belanov (USSR) 18 Battiston (Fra) 18 Tigana (Fra) 18 Elzo (Bra) 16 Augenthaler (Ger) 15 Butragueno (Spa) 14 M.Laudrup (Den) 14 Vervoort (Bel) 13 Lineker (Eng) 13 N.Eder (Ger) 13 Busk (Den) 12 Josimar (Bra) 12 Berthold (Ger) 12 Briegel (Ger) 12 Brown (Arg) 12 M.Olsen (Den) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) 11 Servin (Mex) 11 Ceulemans (Bel) 11 Bertelsen (Den) 11 Batista (Arg) 11 Stopyra (Fra) 11 Cabrera (Uru) 10 Müller (Bra) 10 Burruchaga (Arg)
Good work Gregoriak. Argentina were a one man team....Jorge Valdano plus 10 others. No, well it's difficult to deny Maradona was the main star for them but Valdano's passing stats in particular do suggest he was a very reliable and useful forward. Because we were uncertain about Maradona (fair choice by Gregoriak to put him as a midfielder - in a way the stats do show what sort of role he played - good passing stats compared to forwards but not midfielders while his goals&assists rate would be great for a midfielder and still exceptional for a forward) I did a quick scan through to calculate the difference if he was a forward and it looks like he'd go up 18 points with Valdano losing 3 points off his total. So, he'd be top with 42 points or close to that anyway - I'll have a look to see how he'd compare to Cruyff, Zico etc in a minute. I think midfielder is more suitable than for Cruyff in '74 or Zico in '82 though which would in certain ways be seen as a plus for him, but with these points it works the other way (the passing stats in the main plus some other things favouring midfielders over forwards and lowering his score).
Looking back at the other years, had Maradona been counted as a forward then he'd have edged ahead of Moore's total for 1966 as well as Cruyff '74, Pele '70 and Zico '82 plus the rest. However: a) Probably midfielder is the more realistic categorisation. b) It's hard to compare between different tournaments - taking the totals for each tournament accounts for general differences between years, but on the other hand on chances created Cruyff '74 has more than Maradona '86 so in a straight comparison would be ahead rather than level for that stat (and per minute as well as total) just for one example. Anyway, it's interesting to see these stats and very helpful of Gregoriak to compile them into a complete set.
Nice work mates Additional info: Romero, Julio C. was the paraguayan playmaker, so he should be among MF (Cabañas and Mendoza were fws) Gallego, R. was the spanish libero, replacing Maceda after 1st match (Victor and Calderé played central role in midfield)
1986 Number of Passes Defenders 279 Amoros (Fra) 267 Battiston (Fra) 258 N.Eder (Ger) 252 M.Olsen (Den) 249 Gerets (Bel) Midfielders 424 Tigana (Fra) 341 Alemao (Bra) 326 Burruchaga (Arg) 323 Platini (Fra) 297 Ceulemans (Bel) Forwards (Maradona 262) 198 Valdano (Arg) 198 Allofs (Ger) 153 Romero (Par) 145 Careca (Bra) 136 M.Laudrup (Den) Number of successful passes per minute (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 0.656 M.Olsen (Den) 0.583 Augenthaler (Ger) 0.580 Lamris (Mor) (Tun) 0.523 Kusnetzov (USSR) 0.511 Liegeon (Alg) Midfielders 0.667 Lerby (Den) 0.649 Dolmy (Tun) 0.661 Alemao (Bra) 0.607 Bertelsen (Den) 0.607 Vercruysse (Fra) Forwards (Maradona 0.337) 0.322 Romero (Par) 0.315 M.Laudrup (Den) 0.262 Valdano (Arg) 0.261 Allofs (Ger) 0.254 Careca (Bra) Passing accuracy (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 95.4 Busk (Den) (125/6) 94.6 Nielsen (Den) (105/6) 94.6 Branco (Bra) (176/10) 93.7 M.Olsen (Den) (236/16) 92.5 Julio Cesar (Bra) (148/12) Midfielders 94.1 Bertelsen (Den) (144/9) 93.0 Alemao (Bra) (317/24) 93.0 Elzo (Bra) (238/18) 92.4 F.van der Elst (Bel) (110/9) 91.4 Bouderbala (Tun) (148/14) Forwards 84.1 Careca (Bra) (122/23) 83.3 Valdano (Arg) (165/33) 82.1 Lineker (Eng) (87/19) 81.6 M.Laudrup (Den) (111/25) 81.4 Claesen (Bel) (96/22) Passing accuracy opp. half (minimum 100 passes) Defenders 90.6 Busk (Den) 87.5 Nielsen (Den) 86.6 Donaghy (N.Irl) 84.9 Josimar (Bra) 84.2 Edinho (Bra) Midfielders 91.1 Elzo (Bra) 88.9 Bertelsen (Den) 86.6 Reid (Eng) 85.1 Alemao (Bra) 83.8 Belloumi (Alg) 83.8 Socrates (Bra) Forwards 78.8 Careca (Bra) 76.9 Valdano (Arg) 76.9 M.Laudrup (Den) 73.8 Claesen (Bel) 73.6 Lineker (Eng) Duels won (%) (minimum 30 duels) Defenders 75.0 Sansom (Eng) (24/8) 72.9 Battiston (Fra) (35/13) 71.9 M.Olsen (Den) (23/9) 66.7 Bessonov (USSR) (22/11) 63.6 Quirarte (Mex) (28/16) Midfielders 64.9 Elzo (Bra) (37/20) 63.3 Briegel (Ger) (57/33) 62.6 Maradona (Arg) (122/73) 62.5 Komornicki (Pol) (20/12) 62.2 Labd (Mor) (23/14) Forwards 60.0 Müller (Bra) (18/12) 58.5 Romero (Par) (24/17) 54.8 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) (17/14) 50.0 Valentine (Can) (19/19) 50.0 Rummenigge (Ger) (24/24) Aerial duels won (%) Defenders (minimum 5 duels) 85.7 Kardos (Hun) (6/1) 83.3 Augenthaler (Ger) (5/1) 80.0 Kusnetzov (USSR) (4/1) 77.8 Grün (Bel) (7/2) 76.9 Ruggeri (Arg) (10/3) Midfielders (minimum 3 duels) 100 Briegel (Ger) (4/0) 100 Giusti (Arg) (3/0) 100 Vercauteren (Bel) (3/0) 100 Dziekanowski (Pol) (3/0) 100 Min Kook Cho (S.Kor) (3/0) Forwards (minimum 5 duels) (Maradona 60%) 66.7 Hamilton (N.Irl) (8/4) 66.7 Müller (Bra) (4/2) 60.0 Rummenigge (Ger) (3/2) 57.1 Hateley (Eng) (4/3) 50.0 Krimau (Mor) (Tun) (4/4) 50.0 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) (5/5) Recoveries Defenders 48 Amoros (Fra) 39 Battiston (Fra) 31 N.Eder (Ger) 30 Julio Cesar (Bra) 30 Bossis (Fra) Midfielders 58 Tigana (Fra) 33 Alemao (Bra) 32 Batista (Arg) 32 Ceulemans (Bel) 30 R.Gallego (Spa) Forwards (Maradona 26) 28 Valdano (Arg) 16 Careca (Bra) 14 Romero (Par) 11 Sirakov (Bul) 11 Rummenigge (Ger) 11 Urban (Pol) Tackles won (%) Defenders (minimum 10 tackles) 100 Berthold (Ger) (15/0) 87.0 Battiston (Fra) (20/3) 85.7 Dimitrov (Bul) (18/3) 85.7 Busk (Den) (12/2) 83.3 Jakobs (Ger) (10/2) Midfielders (minimum 10 tackles) 93.3 Vervoot (Bel) (14/1) 90.9 Yakovenko (USSR) (10/1) 90.0 Aitken (Sco) (9/1) 88.9 Scifo (Bel) (16/2) 84.6 Maradona (Arg) (11/2) Forwards (minimum 5 tackles) 100 Allofs (Ger) (5/0) 90.0 Romero (Par) (9/1) 83.3 Belanov (USSR (5/1) 80.0 Stopyra (Fra) (4/1) 80.0 Vrablic (Can) (4/1) 80.0 Smolarek (Pol) (4/1) 80.0 Cabrera (Uru) (4/1) Clearances Defenders 59 Brown (Arg) 45 Bossis (Fra) 40 Quirarte (Mex) 39 Ruggeri (Arg) 39 Renquin (Bel) Midfielders 20 Vervoort (Bel) 16 Batista (Arg) 15 Briegel (Ger) 14 Elzo (Bra) 14 Labd (Mor) Forwards 6 Valdano (Arg) 6 Cabrera (Uru) 3 Madjer (Alg) 2 Veyt (Bel) 2 Sirakov (Bul) 2 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 2 Allofs (Ger) 2 Esterhazy (Hun) 2 Amaiesh (Iraq) 2 Clarke (N.Irl) 2 Hamilton (N.Irl) 2 Penney (N.Irl) 2 Stewart (N.Irl) 2 Romero (Par) 2 Ramos (Uru) Blocks Defenders 8 Ruggeri (Arg) 7 Brown (Arg) 7 Julio Cesar (Bra) 7 Fenwick (Eng) 6 Battiston (Fra) 6 Gerets (Bel) 6 Grün (Bel) 6 El Byaz (Mor) Midfielders 6 R.Gallego (Spa) 5 Batista (Arg) 4 Tigana (Fra) 4 Vervoort (Bel) 3 Giusti (Arg) 3 Socrates (Bra) 3 Lerby (Den) 3 Khairi (Mor) Forwards 3 Stopyra (Fra) 2 Valdano (Arg) 2 Galderisi (Ita) 2 Romero (Par) 2 Urban (Pol) 2 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) 2 Carbera (Uru) 2 Belanov (USSR) Interceptions Defenders 22 Amoros (Fra) 22 Jakobs (Ger) 20 N.Eder (Ger) 19 Cuciuffo (Arg) 18 Battiston (Fra) Midfielders 23 Tigana (Fra) 22 Alemao (Bra) 19 Matthäus (Ger) 18 Elzo (Bra) 15 Burruchaga (Arg) 15 Vervoort (Bel) Forwards (Maradona 6) 10 Valdano (Arg) 7 Beardsley (Eng) 6 Butragueno (Spa) 6 Sirakov (Bul) 5 Claesen (Bel) 5 Stopyra (Fra) 5 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) Goals Defenders 2 Quirarte (Mex) 2 Josimar (Bra) 1 Edinho (Bra) 1 Brown (Arg) 1 Amoros (Fra) 1 Ruggeri (Arg) 1 Servin (Mex) 1 Demol (Bel) 1 Brehme (Ger) 1 Goikoetxea (Spa) Midfielders 5 Maradona (Arg) 3 Ceulemans (Bel) 3 J.Olsen (Den) 2 Burruchaga (Arg) 2 Platini (Fra) 2 Scifo (Bel) 2 Socrates (Bra) 2 Khairi (Mor) 2 Caldere (Spa) 2 Yaremchuk (USSR) Forwards 6 Lineker (Eng) 5 Careca (Bra) 5 Butragueno (Spa) 4 Valdano (Arg) 4 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 4 Altobelli (Ita) 4 Belanov (USSR) Shooting accuracy (minimum 5 shots) Defenders 60.0 Servin (Mex) (3/2) 57.1 Berthold (Ger) (4/3) 50.0 Branco (Bra) (3/3) 42.9 Allawi (Iraq) (3/4) 42.9 Cabrini (Ita) (3/4) Midfielders 80.0 Aguirre (Mex) (4/1) 71.4 Zavarov (USSR) (5/2) 66.7 Negrete (Mex) (4/2) 59.1 Maradona (Arg) (13/9) 57.1 Matthäus (Ger) (8/6) 57.1 Magath (Ger) (4/3) 57.1 Boy (Mex) (4/3) 57.1 Khairi (Mor) (4/3) Forwards 88.9 Butragueno (Spa) (8/1) 83.3 Lineker (Eng) (10/2) 71.4 Altobelli (Ita) (5/2) 71.4 H.Sanchez (Mex) (5/2) 60.0 M.Laudrup (Den) (3/2) 60.0 Beardsley (Eng) (3/2) Successful crosses (minimum 5 crosses) Defenders 66.7 Zdravkov (Bul) (4/2) 60.0 Wilson (Can) (3/2) 50.0 Nicol (Sco) (5/5) 40.0 Josimar (Bra) (2/3) 40.0 Boaro (Bra) (2/3) 40.0 Al Roubai (2/3) 40.0 Worthington (N.Irl) (2/3) 40.0 Larionov (USSR) (2/3) Midfielders 66.7 Di Gennaro (Ita) (4/2) 60.0 Fernandez (Fra) (3/2) 55.6 Hoddle (Eng) (10/8) 50.0 Komornicki (Pol) (3/3) 50.0 Magalhaes (Por) (4/4) Forwards 80.0 Stewart (N.Irl) (4/1) 46.7 Careca (Bra) (7/8) 40.0 Butragueno (Spa) (2/3) 40.0 Stopyra (Fra) (2/3) 40.0 Belanov (USSR) (4/6) Assists Defenders 2 Cuciuffo (Arg) 2 Demol (Bel) 1 Servin (Mex) 1 Gerets (Bel) 1 Petrov (Bul) 1 Zdravkov (Bul) 1 G.Stevens (Eng) 1 Ayache (Fra) 1 Augenthaler (Ger) 1 Berthold (Ger) 1 Camacho (Spa) Midfielders 5 Maradona (Arg) 3 Zavarov (USSR) 2 Burruchaga (Arg) 2 Negrete (Mex) 2 Enrique (Arg) 2 Ceulemans (Bel) 2 Vercauteren (Bel) 2 Alemao (Bra) 2 Arnesen (Den) 2 Hodge (Eng) 2 Di Gennaro (Ita) 2 Kwang Rae Cho (S.Kor) 2 Soon Ho Choi (S.Kor) Forwards 4 Belanov (USSR) 3 Rocheteau (Fra) 2 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 2 Allofs (Ger) 2 Eloy (Spa) Chances created Defenders 10 Amoros (Fra) 8 Grün (Bel) 8 N.Eder (Ger) 7 Garre (Arg) 7 Lamris (Mor) Midfielders 27 Maradona (Arg) 24 Giresse (Fra) 19 Platini (Fra) 16 Matthäus (Ger) 15 Burruchaga (Arg) 15 Vercauteren (Bel) Forwards 23 Allofs (Ger) 18 Careca (Bra) 12 Krimau (Mor) 11 M.Laudrup (Den) 11 Belanov (USSR) Chances created per xy minutes Defenders 36.0 Augenthaler (Ger) 49.0 Lamris (Mor) 50.0 Josimar (Bra) 51.4 Garre (Arg) 52.5 Przybys (Pol) Midfielders 17.8 Magalhaes (Por) 21.2 Giresse (Fra) 23.3 Maradona (Arg) 24.2 Vercruysse (Fra) 27.1 Karas (Pol) Forwards 20.8 Eloy (Spa) 26.7 Careca (Bra) 26.7 Allofs (Ger) 28.5 Belanov (USSR) 30.0 Krimau (Mor) (Tun) Fouls won Defenders 18 Amoros (Fra) 18 N.Eder (Ger) 14 K.Förster (Ger) 12 Berthold (Ger) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) Midfielders 53 Maradona (Arg) 27 Francescoli (Uru) 21 Matthäus (Ger) 20 Briegel (Ger) 19 Negrete (Mex) Forwards 22 Galderisi (Ita) 22 H.Sanchez (Mex) 18 Allofs (Ger) 16 Valdano (Arg) 16 Stopyra (Fra) Fouls conceded Defenders 27 Amoros (Fra) (1/0) 17 Jakobs (Ger) (1/0) 16 Edinho (Bra) (1/0) 16 Grün (Bel) (1/0) 14 Ayache (Fra) (2/0) 14 Berthold (Ger) (0/1) Midfielders 22 Aguirre (Mex) (0/1) 19 Matthäus (Ger) (2/0) 18 Giusti (Arg) (1/0) 18 Scifo (Bel) (0/0) 14 Vercauteren (Bel) (0/0) 14 Hodge (Eng) (1/0) Forwards 12 Claesen (Bel) (1/0) 11 Valdano (Arg) (1/0) 11 H.Sanchez (Mex) (3/0) 10 Stopyra (Fra) (0/0) 10 Allofs (Ger) (1/0) 10 Galderisi (Ita) (0/0) Goalkeepers Minutes per goals conceded 480 Carlos (Bra) 240 Larios (Mex) 180 Rasmussen (Den) 180 Zaki (Mor) 150 Shilton (Eng) Saves 28 Pfaff (Bel) 25 Bats (Fra) 22 Schumacher (Ger) 21 Alvez (Uru) 19 Zubizareta (Spa) Saves per 90 minutes 8.1 Drid (Alg) 5.5 Lettieri (Can) 5.3 Jennings (N.Irl) 5.3 Alvez (Uru) 4.5 El Hadi (Alg) Shots saved % 94.4 Carlos (Bra) 87.5 Zaki (Mor) 86.2 Bats (Fra) 85.0 Shilton (Eng) 83.3 Drid (Alg) Catches 21 Larios (Mex) 17 Pfaff (Bel) 13 Zaki (Mor) 10 Pumpido (Arg) 8 Schumacher (Ger) 8 Bats (Fra) 8 Shilton (Eng) 8 Carlos (Bra) Punches 11 Bats (Fra) 9 Pfaff (Bel) 7 Schumacher (Ger) 6 Zaki (Mor) 5 Larios (Mex) 5 Yun Kyo Ho (S.Kor) Conclusion based on the following points system: 1st place 5 points 2nd place 4 pts 3rd place 3 pts 4th place 2 pts 5th place 1 pt Categories “Fouls won” and “Fouls conceded” did not receive points Top Defenders 23 Amoros (Fra) 18 Battiston (Fra) 16 Augenthaler (Ger) 13 N.Eder (Ger) 13 Busk (Den) 12 Josimar (Bra) 12 Berthold (Ger) 12 Brown (Arg) 12 M.Olsen (Den) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) 11 Servin (Mex) 9 Lamris (Mor) 9 Quirarte (Mex) 8 Nielsen (Den) 8 Demol (Bel) 8 Zdravkov (Bul) 7 Branco (Bra) 7 Cuciuffo (Arg) 7 Grün (Bel) 7 Julio Cesar (Bra) 6 Bossis (Fra) 6 Jakobs (Ger) 5 Kusnetzov (USSR) 5 Gerets (Bel) 5 Kardos (Hun) 5 Sansom (Eng) 4 Edinho (Bra) 4 Fenwick (Eng) 4 Garre (Arg) 4 Wilson (Can) 3 Nicol (Sco) 3 Petrov (Bul) 3 G.Stevens (Eng) 3 Ayache (Fra) 3 Camacho (Spa) 3 Donaghy (N.Irl) 3 Brehme (Ger) 3 Goikoetxea (Spa) 3 Dimitrov (Bul) Top Midfielders 24 Maradona (Arg) 24 Alemao (Bra) 18 Tigana (Fra) 18 Elzo (Bra) 14 Vervoort (Bel) 12 Briegel (Ger) 11 Ceulemans (Bel) 11 Bertelsen (Den) 11 Batista (Arg) 10 Burruchaga (Arg) 9 Vercauteren (Bel) 8 Zavarov (USSR) 8 Di Gennaro (Ita) 8 Giresse (Fra) 7 Platini (Fra) 7 Matthäus (Ger) 7 Magalhaes (Por) 6 Negrete (Mex) 6 Lerby (Den) 6 R.Gallego (Spa) 6 Giusti (Arg) 5 Dziekanowski (Pol) 5 Min Kook Cho (S.Kor) 5 Khairi (Mor) 5 Aguirre (Mex) 4 Fernandez (Fra) 4 Dolmy (Tun) 4 J.Olsen (Den) 4 Vercruysse (Fra) 4 Socrates (Bra) 4 Scifo (Bel) 4 Yakovenko (USSR) 4 Komornicki (Pol) 3 Reid (Eng) 3 Aitken (Sco) 3 Hoddle (Eng) 3 Hodge (Eng) 3 Arnesen (Den) 3 Kwang Rae Cho (S.Kor) 3 Soon Ho Choi (S.Kor) 3 Enrique (Arg) Top Forwards 37 Valdano (Arg) 31 Careca (Bra) 26 Allofs (Ger) 25 Romero (Par) 21 Belanov (USSR) 15 Butragueno (Spa) 14 M.Laudrup (Den) 13 Lineker (Eng) 11 Stopyra (Fra) 11 Cabrera (Uru) 10 Müller (Bra) 8 Eloy (Spa) 7 Rummenigge (Ger) 7 Hamilton (N.Irl) 7 Sirakov (Bul) 7 Elkjaer-Larsen (Den) 7 Stewart (N.Irl) 6 Urban (Pol) 5 Krimau (Tun) 5 Altobelli (Ita) 5 Byung Ho Byun (S.Kor) 5 Beardsley (Eng) 4 Galderisi (Ita) 4 Rocheteau (Fra) 4 Bum Kun Cha (S.Kor) 4 Claesen (Bel) 3 Madjer (Alg) 3 H.Sanchez (Mex) Goalkeepers 13 Bats (Fra) 13 Pfaff (Bel) 12 Zaki (Mor) 11 Carlos (Bra) 10 Larios (Mex) 7 Schumacher (Ger) 6 Drid (Alg) 4 Shilton (Eng) 4 Lettieri (Can) 3 Jennings (N.Irl) 3 Rasmussen (Den) Overall 37 Valdano (Arg) 31 Careca (Bra) 26 Allofs (Ger) 25 Romero (Par) 24 Maradona (Arg) 24 Alemao (Bra) 23 Amoros (Fra) 21 Belanov (USSR) 18 Battiston (Fra) 18 Tigana (Fra) 18 Elzo (Bra) 16 Augenthaler (Ger) 15 Butragueno (Spa) 14 M.Laudrup (Den) 14 Vervoort (Bel) 13 Lineker (Eng) 13 N.Eder (Ger) 13 Busk (Den) 12 Josimar (Bra) 12 Berthold (Ger) 12 Briegel (Ger) 12 Brown (Arg) 12 M.Olsen (Den) 11 Ruggeri (Arg) 11 Servin (Mex) 11 Ceulemans (Bel) 11 Bertelsen (Den) 11 Batista (Arg) 11 Stopyra (Fra) 11 Cabrera (Uru) 10 Müller (Bra) 10 Burruchaga (Arg) Puck, I've copied and pasted from Gregoriak's data and bolded the areas where Maradona would gain or lose points as a forward. I make it about 20 points gained overall actually - I'd mis-calculated the successful passes per minute before but might have given him too many points elsewhere. Anyway you can calculate and see if you agree if you like - the insertions of his name and boldings should be correct now after I re-calculated his successful passes per minute and double-checked it.
I didn't bold the tackles category, and he'd go up a bit as a forward, so done that now in blue. About 22 points is what he might gain then I think.
Maradona's suucessful passes per minute should be 0.332 not 0.337 but would still be at the top of the forwards category. I've assumed/understood from Gregoriak's post that the passes number on the widget is passes attempted rather than successful passes, and calculated the successful passes using the successful passes %.
Maradona had 10 fouls conceded but I didn't insert him in that cetegory as Gregoriak wasn't tallying points for fouls just listing them.
Think the stats back up the claim that he is the best WC performer ever, at least since 1966. Physical conditions, opposition met and team-mates are hard to compare though. Better team mates also make the individual stats better.