World Class Talent

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by Coach_McGuirk, Sep 26, 2002.

  1. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    Great piece, Rick, on the fact that talent is what really matters when all is said and done. I mean, Bolton is a scrappy, hard working side, but are they going to win anything? Of course not.

    Even more interesting is how Wenger has gone about getting all this talent. Last summer, ManU went and got Rio Ferdinand for 30 million pounds. One defender, 30 million. Now, take a look at what Wenger has acquired for less:

    Henry - 10.5 million
    Pires - 6 million
    Viera - 3.5 million
    Ljungberg - 3 million
    Campbell - FREE

    So, ManU get Rio Ferdinand, a fine defender, for 30 million. For 7 million pounds LESS, Arsenal gets one of the finest strikers in the world, a holding midfielder considered the world's best, 2 attacking midfielders, one of whom was the EPL Footballer of the Year even though he missed a month of the season. Add to that one of the best defenders in England, free of charge. And since Wenger had some money still to play with, he adds Cygan (2.1) and Gilberto (4.5) and STILL is 400K below what ManU spent on one defender. That's 7 starters (since Keown's injury) for 29.6 million pounds.

    Now, ask any ManU fan who they would rather have: Rio Ferdinand or Thierry Henry, Robert Pires, Patrick Viera, Freddie Ljungberg, and Sol Campbell.

    And then ask them who is the better manager.
     
  2. dwinkler

    dwinkler New Member

    Aug 11, 2000
    Denver, CO
    To be fair with the math, though, I think you have to compare time frames - you couldn't have acquired those seven players this off-season for that price.

    I think the better analogies are the two you touched on at the end, Cygan and Gilberto. Is Rio Ferdinand 15 times better than Cygan? Uh, no. Is Van Bommel three times better than Silva? Again, no.

    Despite that nit, Coach, you're absolutely right about Le Boss. There's no doubt that Wenger is a bargain hunter of the first magnitude. Very few of his purchases haven't worked out, and when they haven't, he hasn't spent that much money on them anyway. The guy just flat-out knows what he's doing. He's the best manager in the world today, in any sport, full stop.
     
  3. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    There was a report on Sky Sports over the summer about the spending habits of the top teams. Arsenal has a deficit of around £20 - £40 million since Wenger took over (IIRC), but have won the double twice. Liverpool, Man Utd, Leeds, Chelsea have all spent quite a bit more and gotten back much less. Leeds is especially dreadful in terms of money spent vs. honors or money gained from sales of players.

    Arsenal netted £20+ million alone on the Anelka deal... :)
     
  4. Ian Lozada

    Ian Lozada Member

    May 29, 2001
    The Pick Four Pool
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Deficit? That seems hard to believe.
     
  5. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
  6. dwinkler

    dwinkler New Member

    Aug 11, 2000
    Denver, CO
    Long and possibly boring

    There was a pretty good debate along these lines last February on the Arsenal mailing list. One listee (in partial response to a post I wrote defending Wiltord - shock!) put together a list of all Wenger's transfers, based on information thought to be correct at the time (turns out some wasn't correct, such as citing Inamoto as a transfer versus a loan, but most of it was fairly accurate).

    I'll try to hit the transfer highlights year-by-year. Note that the per year totals won't match because I've omitted smaller transfers:

    1996 / 1997
    In:
    Vieira £3.5m
    Anelka £0.5m
    Upson £2m
    Petit £2.5m
    Grimandi £2.5m
    Boa Morte £1.75m
    Overmars £7m
    TOTAL £20.25m

    Out:
    Paul Dickov £1
    John Hartson £3.3m
    Paul Merson £4.5m
    TOTAL £10.12m

    1997 / 1998
    No significant transfers.
    In:
    TOTAL £0.8m

    Out:
    TOTAL £0.75m

    1998 / 1999
    In:
    Ljungberg £3m
    Jermaine Pennant £2m
    Kanu £4.5m
    Kaba Diawara £2.5m
    Luzhny £1.8m
    TOTAL £13.8m

    Out:
    Ian Wright £0.5m
    Isaiah Rankin £1.3m
    Kaba Diawara £3m
    TOTAL £4.87

    1999/2000
    In:
    Silvinho £4m
    Davor Suker £0.5m
    Thierry Henry £10.5m
    Lauren £7.2m
    TOTAL £22.85m

    Out:
    Steve Bould £0.5m
    Jason Crowe £1m
    Nicolas Anelka £23m
    Boa Morte £0.5m
    Stephen Hughes £3m
    Davor Suker £free
    TOTAL £29.03m

    2000 / 2001
    In:
    Pires £6m
    Sylvain Wiltord £13m (also reported as £11m)
    Igors Stepanovs £1m
    Tomas Danilevicius £1m
    Edu £6m
    TOTAL £27m

    Out:
    Jay Bothroyd £1m
    Marc Overmars £25m
    Manu Petit £5m
    TOTAL £31.4m

    2000 / 2001
    In:
    Van Bronkhorst £8.5m
    Richard Wright £6m
    Inamoto £4m (not correct)
    Jeffers £8m
    Kolo Toure £unknown
    TOTAL £26.5m

    Out:
    Silvinho £3.5m
    TOTAL £4.274m

    TOTAL IN : £111.2m
    TOTAL OUT : £80.444m


    That adds up to about a £31m deficit, so perhaps the number of the deficit cited in the media reports is correct. (This season we paid about £6.5m for Cygan and Silva, and recouped about £4.5m for Wright and Manninger.)

    The big selling years came back-to-back, when we fleeced Spanish sides for Anelka and the Overmars/Petit combo. The big buying year came before last season, when we added GVB, Jeffers, and Wright (strangely enough all relative flops so far).

    ****
    But, those numbers don't take into account the current value of the squad, and how much it's increased in worth since Wenger began his wheeling and dealing.

    In the same debate, another listee compared the squad from pre-Wenger to today. Here's what Arsenal looked like before Wenger got here:

    Goalies
    David Seaman
    John Lukic
    Vince Bartram
    Lee Harper

    Defense
    Tony Adams
    Lee Dixon
    Martin Keown
    Stevie Bould
    Nigel Winterburn
    Gavin McGowan
    Eddie McGoldrick
    Scott Marshall
    Matthew Rose
    Andy Linighan
    James MacDonald
    Ross Taylor

    Midfield
    Ray Parlour
    David Hillier
    Paul Shaw
    Ian Selley
    Glenn Helder
    Paul Merson
    David Platt
    Adrian Clarke
    Michael Black
    Valur Gislason

    Forwards
    Dennis Bergkamp
    Ian Wright
    John Hartson
    Paul Dickov
    Chris Kiwomya
    Isaiah Rankin
    Paul Read

    I'm not going to bore you with what the squad looks like today, except to say that it's vastly superior to what it was like when Wenger got here. And the value of the team is undoubtedly higher than it was.

    Even if the transfer deficit is as high as £40m, it has helped build a squad that's won two doubles and qualified for the Champions League five consecutive seasons. The success on the pitch has also undoubtedly led to the development of a world-class training facility and the future development of a cash-cow new stadium. So whatever the transfer deficit is, it's been more than made up in the increased value of the club during Wenger's tenure.

    P.S. Credit to Luke Tovey and Brian Dawes for the original research.
     
  7. Ian Lozada

    Ian Lozada Member

    May 29, 2001
    The Pick Four Pool
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought Lauren arrived the same year as Wiltord & Pires.
     
  8. dwinkler

    dwinkler New Member

    Aug 11, 2000
    Denver, CO
    Off the top I don't know, but I wouldn't doubt it. I thought Toure arrived last season and not the year before. Like I said, it's not 100 percent.
     
  9. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    I thought Bergkamp was Wenger's first signing. IIRC it was the signal that "this is not your father's Arsenal."

    Just checked and I was wrong... Oh, well, I won't let it happen again! :)
     
  10. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Sep 23, 2002
    Chicago
    His one good move

    Bruce Rioch signed Bergkamp in 96' before he took the high road. Perhaps it was his lasting legacy to bring in what many consider to be the finest foreign addition to the premiership ever as well as the one who opened the floodgates for the influx of continental flair!
     
  11. kygunner

    kygunner New Member

    Aug 12, 2001
    Winchester KY USA
    There is a member response from a Daniel Nooter at Arsenalamerica.com that is well written and does a good job of stating my opinion on world class talent.

    With all of Wengers smart deals it appears that he does more homework on his purchases and less of the ManU response of "lets just throw money at the problem."
     
  12. Rapids/Arsenal Fan

    Mar 8, 2001
    Denver, CO USA
    Wasn't Anelka AW's first signing?
     
  13. DEREK WHITE

    DEREK WHITE New Member

    Remi Garde was Arsene's first signing quickly followed by Patrick though Arsene was not officially in chrage when they were signed and so Anelka became his first signing as the official Arsenal manager.Lauren,Wiltord and Pires were all signed in summer 2000
     
  14. asfoolasiam

    asfoolasiam New Member

    Jul 2, 2001
    Takoma Park
    Club:
    DC United
    That's I.

    :)
     
  15. Ian Lozada

    Ian Lozada Member

    May 29, 2001
    The Pick Four Pool
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's all this going around using our real names?

    Oh, wait. Um, never mind.
     
  16. revelation

    revelation Member+

    Dec 17, 1998
    FC St. Pauli
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    I use mine to protect the innocent... :rolleyes:
     
  17. Jeff L

    Jeff L Member

    May 12, 2002
    London
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Having had the opportunity to "discuss" Arsene Wenger with our vice chairman, Mr. David Dein, who describes him as "A GENIUS" I can hardly think of a more apt quote.
    I don't think anyone would attribute that to Ferguson, and as long as AW wants to remain at Highbury; he will!
    "Enough said"! Couldn't think of anyone I would want there instead of him. Certainly not Sven G-E.
     
  18. dwinkler

    dwinkler New Member

    Aug 11, 2000
    Denver, CO
    Speaking of Dein, I don't think he gets enough credit for the vision and courage it took to hire Wenger in the first place. It would be like the Pittsburgh Steelers hiring a guy who used to coach in the CFL, except that he'd been working in Italy for the last few years.

    Let's face it - the English are a tad insulated/superior when it comes to all things football ("If it ain't English, it's crap.") Dein showed some serious stones by making this move.
     
  19. Random

    Random New Member

    May 20, 2002
    N4 again
    Fair comment.

    The world and his tabloid were waiting for this French (FRENCH for God's sake!) bloke to ************ up when he first came over. (copyright the Snu).

    I remember reading in "The Prince", where one kind of wise ruler was described as being able to recognise ability in his advisers in areas where he didn't have it himself, and appointing the competent rather than flatterers accordingly.

    Take a bow David Dein.
     
  20. michaec

    michaec Member

    Arsenal
    England
    May 24, 2001
    Essex
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think that the whole Arsenal management in general, from the chairman on down have done a great job over the last couple of years. Obviously Wenger as the manager and Dein as the day to day boss take most of the paudits, but everyone has been working hard. When you consider the success on the field as well as a new training centre, a torturous planning process for the new stadium and miserable sods like Anelka and Overmars rocking the boat and going for the big bucks in Spain, the back-room staff have done an excellent job. Successful ladies and youth teams have also been put together, we now have a youth system to rival any in the country. Liam Brady, Don Howe and the youth coaches have done a great job with the kids.

    Just a couple of weeks ago Peter Hill-Wood came out and said that wages would not be increased at the cost of bankrupting the club and new siginings only get bonuses if we actually win something. That takes some resolve to see through, especially when your captain's contract is up for renewal in the very near future. I haven't seen any other premiership chairmen taking such a hard line with their pampered superstars.
     
  21. Jeff L

    Jeff L Member

    May 12, 2002
    London
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    "Spot on" comments from "M". Get paid well if you win well. Is it possible that this stance is producing the way the team are currently playing?
    The clun, from "top to bottom" is now being geared to become one of, if not the top club in Europe before the end of this decade. I just hope thta AW is at the helm to steer us all the way. I'm sure he will be!
     

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