Wilt vs Counce

Discussion in 'Colorado Rapids' started by GoRapids, Jan 30, 2003.

  1. GoRapids

    GoRapids Member

    Sep 1, 1999
    Boulder CO
    Recently the Fire have had a major purging of players. I subscribe to the Fire's email ... and Peter Wilt put out a very informative classy email. Why can't The Rapids/Counce keep us informed like this!

    Here's the email:

    Dear Fire Fans,

    I would like to take this opportunity to explain the Chicago Fire's recent moves and try to address any concerns you may have about the Fire going forward. The Fire had an embarrasment of riches over the last several years - we had assembled more talent than any MLS team has ever had. Last year, many players deferred salaries, gave up bonuses or
    hadn't reached their salary potential, which allowed the Fire to stay under the League salary budget for the 2002 season. This year, everything kicked in at the same time resulting in the quantum leap of salaries sending the Fire more than $1,000,000 over the salary budget.

    Even with the pending move of Hristo Stoitchkov, the trades of Dema Kovalenko and Josh Wolff, along with several players taking pay cuts this year, we were STILL significantly over the limit, resulting in the unthinkable trade of our captain and leader Peter Nowak. Unfortunately, the only real aternatives to trading any of those four in order to get under the salary budget included trading Carlos Bocanegra or Chris Armas, which we refused to do for the following reasons.

    We believe that Carlos and Chris can help the Fire compete for more championships for years to come while Peter and Hristo would likely only give the Fire one more year. Josh had requested a trade knowing that the Fire could only afford to keep him or Ante as a maximum salaried forward and his injury history meant he felt that he needed a fresh
    start with another team. Dema is another player that we did NOT want to trade, but given the option of trading him, Carlos or Chris, we believe we made the best move for the Fire and our fans.

    I am more frustrated and torn about losing Peter than anyone could be with the exception of Peter himself. We exhausted all options including naming him a player/assistant coach in order to shave some money off the
    player budget, but it was still not possible to keep him and keep the team under the salary budget. Any alternatives would have resulted in crippling the team.

    Despite all the trades, we STILL have one of the most talented groups in MLS including Zach Thornton, Orlando Perez, Carlos Bocanegra, Jim Curtin, CJ Brown, Evan Whitfield, Chris Armas, Jesse Marsch, DaMarcus
    Beasley, Ante Razov and Rodrigo Faria - seven US National Team veterans and eight MLS All-Stars in the group! The difference this year is that our depth will be much younger and less experienced than last year.

    Chris will now be the oldest player at age 31 and the average age has fallen to 24. i do believe that Justin Mapp, Dipsy Selolwane, Kelly Gray, Craig Capano, Henry Ring and our SuperDraft picks including Nate Jaqua and Damani Ralph - will give the Fire the most talented youth group in MLS. The challenge will be developing them quickly enough to
    contribute when called upon. We are now positioned well to start another five year period of success in Major League Soccer.

    I understand fans' reluctance to accept the young players as important contributors to the team. Please remember, however, the Fire's situation five years ago - several veteran players (Nowak, Roman Kosecki, Jerzy Podbrozny, Lubos Kubik, Francis Okaroh, Frank Klopas) mixed with many young, inexperienced players looking for a chance to prove themselves (Thornton, Brown, Wolff, Armas, Diego Gutierrez, Marsch, Razov).

    When you think about it, we are now in a very similar position, only now the veterans are the former young Americans (Thornton, Brown, Armas, Marsch, Razov) who have taken the mantle and the group of young players are as talented or more so than their predecessors - Beasley, Bocanegra, Gray, Whitfield, Selolwane, Rodrigo Faria, Capano, Ralph, Mapp, Jaqua, Mike Nugent, Logan Pause, Ryan Mack, Phil Swenda, Chad Dombrowski and Ryan Futagaki. The Fire has always taken great pride in developing young American players and we will continue to do so.

    The MLS system makes our job challenging. It also gives all teams a chance to compete rather than the dynastic situations created in sports without salary caps. I believe that we are smart enough to play within the rules and stay one step ahead of the curve in order to maintain a Fire team that can continue to compete for the MLS Championship every year. We have made the playoffs every year and we provided Fire fans three championships in our first five years.

    I understand that people will miss certain players. Some of those people may choose not to support the Fire anymore. If that is the case, then I believe that they were never truly fans of the Fire, but only fans of those individual
    players. I hope you will all continue to support the Fire in our new era as you have in the past. Your support is important to me and the team - we care.

    Thank you,

    peter wilt
    General Manager
     
  2. joeyclams

    joeyclams Member

    Apr 16, 2001
    Denver, CO
    I think the reason Counce doesn't do this is that he doesn't know what he is doing so he can't really explain the reasons behind his decisions.

    I've interviewed Counce a number of times and I find him to be arrogant and aloof, often getting short and sarcastic when asked a question that questions the reasons behind his moves.

    Case in point, Alan Pierce (RMN guys) and I were talking before the announcement of Palacios signing last season at Media day about the validity of this pickup, considering the Rapids had Pablo, and that Hart and Baba were filling in and doing a good job. We both felt it was a very short-sighted move by the Rapids, especially when they needed another striker after the Amochaki debacle.

    When we asked Counce about the reason for the signing, he proceeded to go off on a mini rant about Palacios NOT being a direct replacement for Pablo, and that his versitility was the reason for his signing. He also said, that because of his age, he could be a "player for the Rapids for 10 years." He finished his 'statement' saying, "What, do we just sign no one?" A valid reason indeed.

    Alan then asked that since the Rapids have a less than stellar record when it comes to signing Latin players, Counce said that he would be with 'this team for the long haul.' Flash to November and Palacios is waived.

    Is this direct evidence that Counce is an idiot. No. But it does show his apparant lack of ability in identifying and evaluating talent. And as the GM, isn't this supposed to be his strong point, nevermind his job?

    Also, look at his record over the years of draft picks, high ones, that have stayed with the team. I don't think Counce could put together an email/letter of the quality of the one Wilt provided his fans. He probably feels it's beneath him to keep fans/media members in the loop/know about moves and players.

    His still having a job makes me wonder if he doesn't have pictures of St. Phil that could be leaked to the media should he be fired.

    disclaimer: this is the opinion of one man. Not the opinion of all.
     
  3. greenie

    greenie New Member

    Feb 6, 2000
    Boulder, CO
    Yet another fine example of Pete Wilt's and the Fire's dedication to their fans. It seems like you can find these examples weekly.

    Meanwhile, Counce will continue to be viewed by AEG as a success thanks to the reported attendance at Rapids games.
     
  4. Ingmar4Rapids

    Ingmar4Rapids Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Denver, Colorado
    For anyone who knows, how much does Counce actually have to do with scouting and securing talent? I always thought Hankinson had the most input since he does a lot of scouting and talking to the players before they sign. But that was just my impression based on reading things on the boards and email news. Is Counce even a player personnel guy or is he more the business guy, selling tickets, promoting games, determining how much the Rapids can pay, etc?

    Between not being able to explain rationale on player picks and his complete lack of interest in keeping the fans connected with breaking news, it could be he just doesn't understand the soccer/serious fan end of things. Then that is troubling too because I bet a lot of the fans who hunger for this information are the ones who are taking friends to games and talking up the sport.

    But then again, I really don't know where he is coming from. Anyone know the guy's history?
     
  5. spot

    spot Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Centennial
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who is this Counce guy?
     
  6. jdonnici

    jdonnici Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Westminster, CO
  7. Riccardo55

    Riccardo55 Member+

    Mar 11, 2001
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The GM is Counce..

    The GM...traditionally the General Managers assessed talent, signed/drafted/traded to assemble a team, then hire a coach to coach them. Obviously, having the coach's input is worthwhile, but not always.

    Recent sport tradition has been to try out the idea of the COACH picking the players, and the GM just trying to make it happen with cash/trades, etc. Sometimes this has worked (Shanahan's Broncos in the first four years) and sometmines it hasn't (Shanahan the past four years..).

    I sense that Hankinson is calling the shots, and Counce is just the administrative guy ("Gee Whiz Tim, they won't trade us Twellman for Shak!"). The MLS seems to be structured this way, perhaps because the GM's are less expensive if they are just MBA's and not real soccer experts, too.

    Lastly, I want to point out that "Wilt" has correctly followed my own 'GM' theory, that you have to trade/acquire longterm stars, not one-year deals. My complaint on acquiring CV or Palacios for one or two years. The effort to get a player should be for 5 to 10 years. Yes, exceptions exist....a short-term vet to let a younger player develope, a bargin (see Balboa posts..), or a last piece needed to win a championship (CV needed a big Diallo to set up for him to have brought us a Championship). Wilt has unclogged the pipeline, and at the most will lose this season's championship run, unlikely given the injuries and ineffective play of the Nowak/Wolff/Stoichkov/Kovalenko last season.

    So bring on Zizi Robert ("Legs"?), discover a young goalie two years away from starting, and avoid another beat up (Amokachi, ) washed up (Zambrano) no good (Marquino) signing.

    RLH
     
  8. GreatZar

    GreatZar Member

    Colorado Rapids
    United States
    Mar 29, 1999
    Denver, CO, USA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Counce is a man that wants to do it all. I highly suspect he's a thorn in Hankinson's side and I'm pretty sure that was the case during the Mooch era. But he may have given more control to Tim after the coaching change. His biggest problem is he wants to have say over everything so he spreads himself WAY TOO THIN on everything. This is probably exasserbated by the Rapids paultry budget.

    This reminds me of a saying (who originated this?): sometimes the evil you know is better than the evil you don't know. Not that Counce is evil (that's pretty harsh), but I wonder what we'd be handed with a new GM (anyone remember '96 and that GM?)...we could do better, but then again, we could have a GM like those in SJ, KC, Mia, TB, NJ...

    It's been six years since we've seen a final. But because we led the league in attendance last year, Dan Counce probably has little to worry about.
     
  9. greenie

    greenie New Member

    Feb 6, 2000
    Boulder, CO
    Re: The GM is Counce..

    I don't think that is what Pete Wilt was saying at all. I think his primary point is that MLS teams can rebuild quickly, and that a top-performing club will be a fine mix of long-established veterans, mid-range league journeyment, and young, raw talent.

    With the structure of MLS, there is simply no way to get a player for 5 to 10 years. Hell, it's tough enough to get a player for more than 2 years.

    In the case of the Rapids, 2003 has the potential for the best attacking force the league has ever seen. And should this "mystery left back" be signed and perform, they may turn out to be one of the most solid sides in league history.

    Unfortunately, a club that performs on that level in MLS will find it difficult to maintain their lineup in the following year. I can guarantee you that the Rapids will be bumping their heads against the ceiling of the salary cap this season, and it's likely that heading into 2004 we're going to have to lose some players as a result. Could be some of our younger starters renegotiate for higher salaries (Pablo, Carrieri, Stewart), and it could simply be that guaranteed incentives and salary increases put us over the limit -- it's not uncommon for players to have standard salary escalations built in to their contracts.

    Finally, unless the league changes it's rules, performance incentives earned during 2003 will be tallied against the 2004 cap. In other words, the bonus that each Rapids player earns for making the All-Star Game will count against us next season.
     
  10. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    Re: The GM is Counce..

    Let's see what the man his own self has to say on that. From later in the "Peter Wilt letter" thread in the Fire boards:

     
  11. joeyclams

    joeyclams Member

    Apr 16, 2001
    Denver, CO
    Ricardo,

    You do realize that the salary cap for 2003 is $1.7 million. That is nothing. Hell, if Henderson, Chung, Spencer, Fraser, or Pablo make the All-Star team or Pepsi 11, they will almost guarantee their leaving next season because of the salary escalators, incentives, and bonus they earn will take them way over the max salary they already command (or damn close to it). How is an MLS franchise supposed to hold onto its best players when things like that happen? And don't think it can't. In 2002, Chung, Henderson, and Carrieri all had career years. The only reason the Rapids didn't let either Chung or Henderson go this off-season is because CV left and took his max salary with him. Carrieri is still P-40 so they can hold him for 2003. Another great season and he'll be Josh Wolff.

    Unless MLS gets an infusion of cash so they can raise the salary cap, the Rapids could be the Fire for 2004. There is no way they're getting a big influx of cash unless one of us wins the lottery and decides to give MLS a bunch of cash, much less keeping a player for 5-10 years. You're living in dreamland if you think that will happen anytime soon.
     
  12. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How long has Counce been a part of the Rapids?

    He may get the benefit of the doubt from AEG when they look at last years attendance, but you guys will have a very hard time repeating those numbers without that national team doubleheader (unless of course you get another one)

    Another big difference you guys are very familiar with is Wilt wants to build tradition and colors. The new Fire uniforms a very similar to previous versions and have stayed relatively unchanged.

    Counce thinks he is so smart he can radically change team colors, let alone uniform styles. This will be the 5th major style change in 8 years. From what I have seen, the new unis will look good - but what he did was unpopular with the majority of you Rapids fans. The color change was unnecessary and the reason he game for it was juvenile and invented entirely in his own head.

    I read he played soccer in college so he probably thinks of himself as a soccer guy. Really, I think he's full of bs.

    If you look at successful GM's in this league: Wilt,Payne and I would add Andy Swift in Dallas. They give the fans what they want. Counce gives the fans what he wants.

    Counce is a poor mans Nick Sakewicz. I feel bad for you guys. Really.
     
  13. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I knew Northside would find this thread. :)
     
  14. Riccardo55

    Riccardo55 Member+

    Mar 11, 2001
    Denver
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Salary Cap

    Yes, Yes, Yes, I know the Cap trouble, and appreciate the problems of cheap/young players being rewarded that has to force out someone else who is making money.

    Despite this, DC had a great run by signing and keeping Marco, Pope, & Moreno. The rest they filled in with shorter term players. Chicago has excelled for years with the core of Thorton, Nowak, Wolff, Razov, Bocanegra, Brown, Armas, and now DMB. They fill in AFTER they have their long term core.

    For a Rapids dynasty (or a championship contender for a series of years) we will need to idenftify a similar core of stars for a five year span, then fill in with short termers. Our failures since winning the West have been our utter lack of longterm core players (only Balboa) until Spencer showed up, and now Garlick, Chung/Henderson, let's hope Pablo/Gilles. That's a core. We looked good with Limpars/JDV/Hahnemann/Balboa, but lost two of those and the short termers couldn't sustain the efforts. (then bye-bye Mooch). If we had continued to identify a core of journeyman players, suppplemented with one or two year stars, we'd still be the last place Rapids. We are not the last Place Rapids because we have brought in a solid core that should remain (more or less) for more than 2002 & 2003.

    So no, I don't think that the "build the team for one year" model is worthwhile. Look at KC. I am glad not to be a Wiz fan. Look at Chicago (one year build, but sustained excellence and a good future). The Rapids are better with the later method, which I think they are now following.

    Lastly, if Counce/Hankinson does this correctly, we'll be cycling older player out as new, younger players deserve a new contract. Yes Carrieri could get squeezed out, but Fraser and Spencer are getting older, and Pablo could get an overseas offer. Someone could get hurt. Robert could be a bomb. Gilles could miss France. Everyone's roster tends to thin itself to some degree. The Haninkson/Counce plan to yearly build on the team looks to have worked (given Zizi is comming). I think that when all is done, we'll be OK for next year, too, with some natural selection.

    Riccardo
     

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